jwhitlock Posted November 8, 2015 Posted November 8, 2015 Yes sometimes there is confusion on this point Not among the faithful, there isn't. 1
Senator Posted November 8, 2015 Posted November 8, 2015 The only issue that matters is whether or not the actions in homosexual relations are sinful.All others depend on the answer to that question. We LDS will not resolve these difficultiesamong ourselves unless we are united in that answer. It's beyond hope to resolvethis with the world because the notion of sin is now seen as outmoded and hateful.Apparently we now have this same attitude within our own community.The time prophesied by Elder Maxwell in 1978 has arrived....."But make no mistake about it, brothers and sisters; in the months and years ahead, events will require of each member that he or she decide whether or not he or she will follow the First Presidency. Members will find it more difficult to halt longer between two opinions (see 1 Kings 18:21)."From the same talk...."Your discipleship may see the time come when religious convictions are heavily discounted. M. J. Sobran also observed, 'A religious conviction is now a second-class conviction, expected to step deferentially to the back of the secular bus, and not to get uppity about it' (Human Life Review, Summer 1978, p. 58). This new irreligious imperialism seeks to disallow certain of people’s opinions simply because those opinions grow out of religious convictions. Resistance to abortion will soon be seen as primitive. Concern over the institution of the family will be viewed as untrendy and unenlightened."https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/neal-a-maxwell_meeting-challenges-today/Choices, choices. While I agree with you in general; I do believe history has shown us that there are some religious convictions that should be outmoded. Religious racial convictions being one of them.
name Posted November 8, 2015 Posted November 8, 2015 Hi JW However, many of us on the other side see the hand of the Lord repeatedly manifest in how the church is run. It's there for anyone who wants to dig for it with an open mind. How deep does one have to dig before they would finally hit a layer of ground that would resemble the Lord? Is compassion found at 15 feet? Can Love be found at a depth of 18 feet? What about mercy and grace - can these be found somewhere while digging? I have a shovel or would you suggest I get a backhoe?
jwhitlock Posted November 8, 2015 Posted November 8, 2015 Not at all surprised with your announcement. Nor am I surprised at your willingness to throw the church under the bus when the world tells you to do so.
Calm Posted November 8, 2015 Posted November 8, 2015 I will admit to being a little puzzled at first when I first heard the policy. But upon pondering the policy it became quite clear to me why they made it so that a child of SSM parents had to wait until their 18th birthday to be baptized, and would then be required to disavow SSM in order to be baptized. It's quite simply a matter of respect for the family, and I mean the same-sex family. And how do you incorporate the requirement for the child to not be living in the same house at the age of 18 in order to be baptized?
SmileyMcGee Posted November 8, 2015 Posted November 8, 2015 Strange. I don't feel uncomfortable at all with the policy.Then again, I made the effort to try to understand it, rather than joining with the torch and pitchfork rabble.If you could just look at it with an open mind the discomfort will set in... 2
Avatar4321 Posted November 8, 2015 Posted November 8, 2015 A few more thoughts about this:For believing LDS parents, getting their children to receive LDS baptized is critical - it is about eternal life for their children. Now, these parents, extended families, grandparents, etc, are placed (forced IMO) in an enormously difficult position. They no longer are making these difficult decisions for or about themselves, these decisions now have significant impact on the eternal security of their young children - the grandchildren/nephews/nieces/cousins/etc.Simply put - This is the threatening of a loved one (In this case, a child) and the obvious results of this threat will be enormous weights of persuasion and pressure dumped on entire families. It will cause much pain, angst, division, and heart-break to many good and decent Mormons.It's very unfortunate.It's also very unnecessary.What do believing parents have to do with children of married same sex couples? 1
jwhitlock Posted November 8, 2015 Posted November 8, 2015 Hi JWHow deep does one have to dig before they would finally hit a layer of ground that would resemble the Lord?Is compassion found at 15 feet?Can Love be found at a depth of 18 feet?What about mercy and grace - can these be found somewhere while digging?I have a shovel or would you suggest I get a backhoe? A perfect example of what Jacob 4:14 is tells us about looking beyond the mark.
Avatar4321 Posted November 8, 2015 Posted November 8, 2015 I'm confident the Lord knows what he is doing. I'm substantially less confident the LDS Church knows what the Lord is doing.Then you need to talk to the Lord
Calm Posted November 8, 2015 Posted November 8, 2015 That's from Volgodon's perspective. He doesn't have all the facts, as he admitted. I'm not sure that there's anything a well-connected solicitor would have been able to do anyway. I was thinking along the lines of being able to tell those in negotiation how serious the other side was based on his experience in the area. 1
jwhitlock Posted November 8, 2015 Posted November 8, 2015 If you could just look at it with an open mind the discomfort will set in... I'll interpret your remarks for you. Open mind = agreeing with a critical position against the church. You have your definition wrong.
Stone holm Posted November 8, 2015 Posted November 8, 2015 Not among the faithful, there isn't.Yes, it is only the unfaithful who ever have doubt about the wisdom of how the Church implements the Lord's desires. The leadership always nails it right on target...until they actually aim before firing...which seems to be happening a lot.
ALarson Posted November 8, 2015 Posted November 8, 2015 (edited) Not among the faithful, there isn't.Sure there is. I see a lot of pain and confusion among the most valiant and active in the church over this new policy. A brother in my ward is in agony over it because his ex-wife has his kids half the time and she lives with her gay partner. He has kids under 8 years old and doesn't know if they can be baptized. The kids love their Mother (and he does too, but they are no longer married). He has a son who was to be ordained a deacon in a few weeks and the Bishop has told him that he doesn't know now if that can take place. Some clarification needs to happen here and happen soon. Will this boy be punished and not allowed to get the Priesthood? Will he have to sit by and watch all of his friends be ordained and pass the sacrament? How long do you think he'll want to continue attending and be on the outside of his age group? This man is one of the most stalwart members of the church I've known. Edited November 8, 2015 by ALarson 3
Avatar4321 Posted November 8, 2015 Posted November 8, 2015 The whole purpose of the church is to get people to conform and to punish them for their actions. That is what they do. Now they have just taken it to the children also.I highly recommend going to church and paying closer as attention because that's not the point of the Church at all. 1
SmileyMcGee Posted November 8, 2015 Posted November 8, 2015 Ah, the arrogance of the "enlightened" who have embraced the world because the church of Christ didn't fit their worldview.It's actually more of an "eyes to see and ears to hear" kind of thing. But you wouldn't understand.? Pretty sure I implied that both sides were seeing what they want, not that one was particularly enlightened. Lest you misunderstand, I don't believe in an enlightened set of morals, in or outside of the church. 1
jwhitlock Posted November 8, 2015 Posted November 8, 2015 I was thinking along the lines of being able to tell those in negotiation how serious the other side was based on his experience in the area. Was there any possibility that the orthodox Jews that were in opposition weren't particularly serious about that opposition??
jwhitlock Posted November 8, 2015 Posted November 8, 2015 Yes, it is only the unfaithful who ever have doubt about the wisdom of how the Church implements the Lord's desires. The leadership always nails it right on target...until they actually aim before firing...which seems to be happening a lot. There you go. The church is moving steadily away from the world, and you're telling us they're missing the target. 2
SmileyMcGee Posted November 8, 2015 Posted November 8, 2015 (edited) I'll interpret your remarks for you.Open mind = agreeing with a critical position against the church.You have your definition wrong.I guess the irony of my remark was lost on someone who can't see the limitation of human perspective...or perhaps you're a god. Edited November 8, 2015 by SmileyMcGee
Stone holm Posted November 8, 2015 Posted November 8, 2015 What do believing parents have to do with children of married same sex couples?Don't underestimate the havoc that believing grandparents can raise in this situation, policy or no policy.
ALarson Posted November 8, 2015 Posted November 8, 2015 What do believing parents have to do with children of married same sex couples?Because many are in joint custody situations with a former spouse who is now in a gay relationship. 3
Avatar4321 Posted November 8, 2015 Posted November 8, 2015 Not among the faithful, there isn't.Especially considering this policy is completely consistent with the Lord's direction during this and previous dispensations.
rockpond Posted November 8, 2015 Posted November 8, 2015 I just saw a post which discussed Elder Chritofferson's relationship with his brother who is in a SSM. Is this true? I happened to come across this interview with Tom Christofferson regarding the policy change and thought you might be interested. In this interview, Tom happens to express how I feel better than anyone else has. http://www.wheatandtares.org/19470/tom-christofferson-transcript/
jwhitlock Posted November 8, 2015 Posted November 8, 2015 Sure there is. I see a lot of pain and confusion among the most valiant and active in the church over this new policy. You should have left this bit of hype out. Your point would have been better made by just relating the story.
rockpond Posted November 8, 2015 Posted November 8, 2015 No. It will not happen. Dehlin, the false prophet for his fellow apostates, will be proven wrong. The Church has already received the Lord's direction on this matter. You are the one who is out of step. You are effectively expecting the Church to go in a direction which it has formally defined as apostate. Who, other than someone already in apostasy, could possibly think that would be a good thing? Someone who believes in continuing revelation. 1
Avatar4321 Posted November 8, 2015 Posted November 8, 2015 Hi JWHow deep does one have to dig before they would finally hit a layer of ground that would resemble the Lord?Is compassion found at 15 feet?Can Love be found at a depth of 18 feet?What about mercy and grace - can these be found somewhere while digging?I have a shovel or would you suggest I get a backhoe?Considering it's on the surface when the Church is demonstrating the desire not to create friction for minors in their families, the fact that you haven't found any is evidence you aren't looking
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