Danzo Posted November 13, 2015 Posted November 13, 2015 It is perfectly rational. When a church leader or leaders promotes a policy that causes cognitive dissonance it can cause a "crystallization of discontent" and be the moment that their beliefs fall. translation "I heard something I didn't want to here from priesthood leaders" Like its the first time that ever happened. "The gospel would be so much easier to live if I was never told to do something hard or that I had to believe something different than what I already believe" 3
JAHS Posted November 13, 2015 Author Posted November 13, 2015 Maybe this policy was the trigger that caused them to lose their testimony of the restored gospel. An actual testimony that one receives coming from a confirmation form the Holy Ghost of the truthfulness of the Gospel is not going to be lost by one single incident like this one thing. It would take many years of single incidents or commission of sins that might slowly cause one to move away from the spirit. It is not until at the end of such a journey and finally a loss of testimony where a single incident like this might be the last straw that compels one to leave. For these people the loss of their testimony (assuming they actually had one) happened a long time ago. 1
carbon dioxide Posted November 13, 2015 Posted November 13, 2015 Does this policy apply to a gay couple living together with kids but are not married?
carbon dioxide Posted November 13, 2015 Posted November 13, 2015 Maybe this policy was the trigger that caused them to lose their testimony of the restored gospel.That is not logical to me. If one has a testimony of the restoration and believes that the Church was true up to last month, why would a policy that really affects very few people change that? The people who are leaving are doing so over more than this. This is just a great excuse to cut the cord. 1
JAHS Posted November 13, 2015 Author Posted November 13, 2015 Does this policy apply to a gay couple living together with kids but are not married?Yes. "A natural or adopted child of a parent living in a same-gender relationship, whether the couple is married or cohabiting, may not receive a name and a blessing." 1
carbon dioxide Posted November 13, 2015 Posted November 13, 2015 Yes. "A natural or adopted child of a parent living in a same-gender relationship, whether the couple is married or cohabiting, may not receive a name and a blessing."Thanks
Russell C McGregor Posted November 13, 2015 Posted November 13, 2015 It is perfectly rational. When a church leader or leaders promotes a policy that causes cognitive dissonance it can cause a "crystallization of discontent" and be the moment that their beliefs fall. But that isn't rational, Ron. Here's how it could be rational: The Church's foundational truth claims logically entail that it will never do some X. The Church does X. Therefore, the Church's foundational truth claims have been disproved. What has the Church done that causes such angst? Promulgated a policy requiring the children of adults in certain apostate family arrangements to wait until they are adults before being baptised. Which of the Church's foundational truth claims logically entail that it will never promulgate such a policy? And where can I read about that truth claim? 2
Ron Posted November 13, 2015 Posted November 13, 2015 An actual testimony that one receives coming from a confirmation form the Holy Ghost of the truthfulness of the Gospel is not going to be lost by one single incident like this one thing. It would take many years of single incidents or commission of sins that might slowly cause one to move away from the spirit. It is not until at the end of such a journey and finally a loss of testimony where a single incident like this might be the last straw that compels one to leave. For these people the loss of their testimony (assuming they actually had one) happened a long time ago. Good point I would guess most who have resigned over this in such a short of time probably are those already taking issue with the church. However there are some who have been harboring doubts for a while and this event is the crystallizing event that causes faith to crumble. It may not lead to resignation but might be the starting point down that path.
Ron Posted November 13, 2015 Posted November 13, 2015 So within in a week everything occurred for a "bad outcome". Wow, talk about moving at lightening speed. Has that ever happened before in the Church? It would have to be the most organized stake in the Church. Get the clarification, train on it, implement it, call in all those who were gay married and active, call them to repentance, call a court, make a decision, and then excommunicate them. All in one week. Yup, totally believable to me. The bad outcome occured once they found out they were no longer wanted in our ranks. They do not need to wait for procedure to be implemented to experience the harm.
Russell C McGregor Posted November 13, 2015 Posted November 13, 2015 The bad outcome occured once they found out they were no longer wanted in our ranks. They do not need to wait for procedure to be implemented to experience the harm. "They" being minor children? Who told them they were no longer wanted in our ranks? Whoever told them that, was clearly not being truthful with them. Or do you mean adult, sexually active homosexuals? You mean they only just figured out that their activities are contrary to the doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ? And that this came as a surprise to them? All I can say to that is, "Oh." 1
Danzo Posted November 13, 2015 Posted November 13, 2015 The bad outcome occured once they found out they were no longer wanted in our ranks. Who are 'They'? The most you can say is 'they' are no longer wanted in our youth programs, No restrictions on adult participation. Even this is not true, there is no restriction on attendance in youth programs, last night, at my house were several people in attendance of a youth activity that, for various reasons, were not baptized. They didn't seem to have gotten your message that they were not wanted in our ranks. 1
Teancum Posted November 13, 2015 Posted November 13, 2015 Any evidence that this decades-old policy harmed the children of polygamists? The potential population would be tens of thousands of children. Apples and oranges. Polygamist sects are a direct threat to the claimed Authority of the SLC Church. They are also a strong reminder of something that I thing the current leadership wishes never would have happened. The current policy for gay couples is far reaching in many situations where there may be a desire for a child to be part of the church. From a situation where there is an active member whose spouse left them due to their homosexual behavior and the children of such a union to one where a gay LDS person who may not choose to obey the LDS law of chastity but still believe the rest of the church claims and would be happy to support their children in church activity. Quite different from polygamist sects.
Teancum Posted November 13, 2015 Posted November 13, 2015 So if a child of gay married parents attends a church that teaches gay marriage is a grevious sin worthy of expulsion from the Church, how could this not cause inner confusion and conflict? The child would have to oblivious, disengaged and living in la la land not to see the conflict. No more confusion than a child of heterosexual couples who are living together outside of wedlock whose children attend church.
JAHS Posted November 13, 2015 Author Posted November 13, 2015 Good point I would guess most who have resigned over this in such a short of time probably are those already taking issue with the church. However there are some who have been harboring doubts for a while and this event is the crystallizing event that causes faith to crumble. It may not lead to resignation but might be the starting point down that path. Could happen. We are all at different levels of church experience and strength of testimony. But before someone starts down "that path" I would hope they would be patient and wait to see how this plays out before they start losing faith over it. 1
Zakuska Posted November 13, 2015 Posted November 13, 2015 (edited) Most members go through their entire lives never once reading it. How is it burdensome?Since Bishops are the Aaronic Priesthood leaders in their ward (thus filling the spot of moses and aaron) and they are supposed to be following every jot and tittle in this handbook of instructions for administering the church per dictate of SLC... it does get pretty burdesome. Edited November 13, 2015 by Zakuska
Zakuska Posted November 13, 2015 Posted November 13, 2015 (edited) I'm not sure if any of you saw a Fox 13 news report on their facebook feeds yesterday. It seems to have been removed with Error 404 today. But the news report said that the the Suicide hotline for the LGBT community in SLC saw a huge spike since Monday. So now this policy change passed down by the 12 could very well be the catalyst to full blown actual real life cassualties. :shock:Will the bretheren now have blood on their hands to boot? Edited November 13, 2015 by Zakuska
Russell C McGregor Posted November 13, 2015 Posted November 13, 2015 No more confusion than a child of heterosexual couples who are living together outside of wedlock whose children attend church. Yes, but what is the solution? Well, the couple can get married and continue to live together. The de facto family becomes a de jure family and everyone wins. In the case of the gay couple, what is the solution? The gay couple have to separate. The Church is asking just a little bit more of them, don't you think? 1
Russell C McGregor Posted November 13, 2015 Posted November 13, 2015 I'm not sure if any of you saw a Fox 13 news report on their facebook feeds yesterday. It seems to have been removed with Error 404 today. But the news report said that the the Suicide hotline for the LGBT community in SLC saw a huge spike since Monday. So now this policy change passed down by the 12 could very well be the catalyst to full blown actual real life cassualties. :shock: Yes, this has been a popular bit of anti-Mormon propaganda for a while. It has been a popular bit of gay rights propaganda for a whole lot longer. And it is nothing more than a tantrum. "Don't you dare say anything to offend me, or I'll harm myself!" I have utterly despised that kind of manipulation ever since I first heard of convicts in prison going on hunger strikes. 3
T-Shirt Posted November 13, 2015 Posted November 13, 2015 Since Bishops are the Aaronic Priesthood leaders in their ward (thus filling the spot of moses and aaron) and they are supposed to be following every jot and tittle in this handbook of instructions for administering the church per dictate of SLC... it does get pretty burdesome.You've never been in a bishopric, have you?
Zakuska Posted November 13, 2015 Posted November 13, 2015 (edited) I hear what youre saying. Re: manipulation. My daughter started using the line on us when she turned 12 to get her way and has been in and out of UNI 2 times since with actual attempts. So I think I know exactly how much the tactic is despiseable. But at the same time it is something real that has to be dealt with and taken very seriously, because like in my daughters case she actually did attempt it twice. We finally had to say fine if that's how you choose to direct your life go ahead its your choice. Once she saw we had caught on and weren't going to be manipulated any more she finally grew out of the phase. Edited November 13, 2015 by Zakuska
Kenngo1969 Posted November 13, 2015 Posted November 13, 2015 I'm not sure if any of you saw a Fox 13 news report on their facebook feeds yesterday. It seems to have been removed with Error 404 today. But the news report said that the the Suicide hotline for the LGBT community in SLC saw a huge spike since Monday. So now this policy change passed down by the 12 could very well be the catalyst to full blown actual real life cassualties. :shock:Will the bretheren now have blood on their hands to boot?Yes, well, the fact that it has been removed should tell you something. It probably won't, but it should.
KevinG Posted November 13, 2015 Posted November 13, 2015 You recognize your own daughters suicide attempts as manipulation but then ask if the brethren will have blood on their hands because of the threatened suicide of others?That is some disconnect. And a terrible accusation of the brethren. I'm stunned. 2
Zakuska Posted November 13, 2015 Posted November 13, 2015 (edited) Yes, well, the fact that it has been removed should tell you something. It probably won't, but it should.The fact that it has been removed only points to the fact that church leaders probably contacted them to quit promoting bright ideas to people who are emotionally distraught and unstable right now. Edited November 13, 2015 by Zakuska
Zakuska Posted November 13, 2015 Posted November 13, 2015 You recognize your own daughters suicide attempts as manipulation but then ask if the brethren will have blood on their hands because of the threatened suicide of others?That is some disconnect. And a terrible accusation of the brethren. I'm stunned.I didn't acuse anyone of anything... it is noted that you acused me of acusing the bretheren however.
Mystery Meat Posted November 13, 2015 Posted November 13, 2015 They are also a strong reminder of something that I thing the current leadership wishes never would have happened. Tell that to the leaders of our Church who have remarried after their first wives past away. I can tell you with the utmost surety that they find great comfort in the doctrine and are grateful it was revealed and for the sacrifices of the early church.
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