Battle Of The Boards

[Damien the Leper]

Ok. I think I heard somewhere that the Mormon Discussions Board and Mormon Dialogue (formerly MADB) came from the fallout of ZLMB. I don't want this thread to be emotionally charged. I am curious as to what happened with ZLMB and why there is such hostility between MDD and Mormon Discussions.

I have posted over there and the only people I really dialogued with were Jack, MercynGrace and Kishkumen. I've seen some posts over there and they can be pretty bad.

Can I get a history lesson?

[Zakuska]

Zlmb was a grand place but the mods started kicking people off who posted things like what you are seeing on the board that must not be named.

Thus MADB was born. Then MDB was born and many people migrated here from Zlmb because the software seemed to be better. At least that's why I did I think.

Edited November 20, 2015 by Zakuska

[Calm]

No, what happened is that FAIR started a board because (actually I don't know as I wasn't involved in the creation of the FairMormon board so someone else will have to fill this in as mine would be speculation) and there were many participants who posted on both boards and as that board died, more came over here looking for action.  So I would say this board benefited from the death of ZLMB but didn't start because of anything that went on over there.

 

MDB was born once people started getting banned from here.  It was supposed to be the free speech, you can say what you want and no censoring or banning would occur zone.  That stopped pretty soon iirc when people started posting others' personal information both on that board and in response to those posts elsewhere.    Sometimes discussions were crossposted from both boards to ZLMB.  The results in those cases were often not pretty and helped speed up the death.  Complaints were also made to the legal service that put up the ZLMB to shut us down when information was posted (though not by LDS who were targeted).

 

ZLMB died imo though (and I had a front row seat as the main moderator though I did take a vacation for a time because of such high frustration of having to spend hours with posters to no avail) because of our policy of equaling policing the board, same rules applied to everyone and as moderator I would only ping someone who broke the rules, not someone who would provoke another to break the rules no matter how much I wanted to slap the person (edited to change "guy", women were as good at poking as men) down.  All complaints were treated seriously whether they deserved to be or not.   Moderation decisions of banning people were made by committee (some LDS, some not) and thus were delayed because we needed input.  Every topic was pretty much originally allowed save for temple talk and vulgarity.  Got heavy handed at times in attempts to promote respectful dialogue.  Didn't work.  Plus we allowed posters to appeal moderator calls and experimented with a variety of ways of letting posters engage with moderators and each other when there were disagreements.  All it did imo was perpetuate the disagreements and cause it to fill the board.  We had some of our substantive posters targeted heavily, they got tired of being constant targets and left.  Once they were gone, a lot of critics and LDS lost interest.  Some came here. 

 

Here it became obvious that people were thinking that this board was FAIR so FAIR cut ties.  Moderation has changed in minor details over time as needed, since the board has a lot of traffic still of a varied population, it appears to me to be a successful approach.

Edited November 20, 2015 by Calm

[Damien the Leper]

Then what's the beef with, Shades?

[Damien the Leper]

I saw a post from you, Calmoriah, from 2012 on ZLMB. Looking at the site makes me feel like I'm walking through an old west ghost town.

[Calm]

I can't go visit to see if anyone has posted anymore.  Too sad.  It was a huge part of my life.  Filled a void in my life.

[Damien the Leper]

Russell posted there in 2012 also but the OP is contentious as it involves another poster here.

[Calm]

Then what's the beef with, Shades?

Shades himself or the board?  Himself...as far as I know the only problem anyone has with him is that he has allowed stuff to posted on his board that got too personal.  Significant time has passed since any personal stuff came up that I know of and I probably remember mostly the things that impacted me. I haven't read that board much at all for their PoV (can't even remember last time I looked at it), so anything I say would be a heavily slanted and limited version.

[Calm]

Well, I just tried to access the site and it isn't coming up on my screen.  The cached version is so I am wondering if my laptop doesn't like the current formatting.  I am going to take that as a sign/excuse I shouldn't get into it tonight.  Maybe try to look at it tomorrow on my iPad.  I think it is younger than this device.

[Damien the Leper]

Looking at some of Scott's posts leads me to believe that he's gotten soft.

Can't remember how many times I though "Ouch!" after reading his posts.

I feel like I'm reading a bunch of autobiographies. It's confusing but fun.

[Calm]

I was so annoyed when they changed the format and dumped the names of all those who hadn't registered with yuku. Hard to follow conversations.

[Damien the Leper]

Agreed. I've only recognized you, Scott, Russell, Kerry and Rory (I think it's the same Rory).

[Tacenda]

Did these forums start because prople were undergoing faith crises since the internet exploded unsavory history? And people were defending, as in Fair? Just curious why they even begun? What were their opening statements at the beginning, or reasons for the forum?

[Scott Lloyd]

Looking at some of Scott's posts leads me to believe that he's gotten soft.

Can't remember how many times I though "Ouch!" after reading his posts.

I feel like I'm reading a bunch of autobiographies. It's confusing but fun.

Soft? Me?

Perhaps I had more of a take-no-prisoners attitude then. I think I was pretty hard on Don Bradley (Onandagus). He let me have it on this board at the time he went public with his decision to come back to the Church. That caused some introspection on my part.

I think I'm still pretty unyielding, though. Individual observers will have to decide for themselves.

I became disenchanted with ZLMB when I perceived the antagonistic critics were getting a pass too often and that they were overrunning the board. I vented one day and unintentionally caused a pile-on with others chiming in. From my perspective, that was the beginning of the decline of ZLMB. I was already posting on the FAIR board by then, as were several of the regulars (Smac was one, Bernard Gui was another) and the FAIR board and this one, its successor, became my new home.

PS. Did you notice Daniel Peterson was a regular there? That's what initially attracted me to ZLMB. In addition to his own name, he used a couple of screen aliases at separate times. Logic Chopper was one.

Edited November 20, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

Did these forums start because prople were undergoing faith crises since the internet exploded unsavory history? And people were defending, as in Fair? Just curious why they even begun? What were their opening statements at the beginning, or reasons for the forum?

Faith crises had little or nothing to do with it in the beginning. It was defending the Church against harsh and angry online anti-Mormons, mainly Evangelicals, although secularists and hardened apostates became the more predominant element later. Calm can check my memory on this.

Edited November 20, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Calm]

I was late to the party...But my impression was faith crisis had little to do with it.  In the beginning it was the evangelical standard antimormon fare that had been going on for a couple of decades.  Rarely one would come across a cluster of intelligent conversation between educated believers of different faiths, that was interesting even when debating. Defense of the faith much more of a trigger, criticism was first in a fairly substantive way and then a poster who was getting trashed over in another place invited the critics of that board to come over to ZLMB to get their comeuppance by the posters there...the newbies were so annoying, not interested in having thoughtful, respectful conversation, changed the tone of the board over night, played passive aggressive manipulative games.  Heavy hitters that were still around faded pretty rapidly after that.

 

The evangelical arguments were very repetive and rather easily dealt with by asking them to examine their own faith with the same standard they examined ours.  Those faded away over time save when school got out or so it seemed and we'd get a flurry of young kids trying out what they learned in their how to witness to Mormons class.  A few more educated anti-mormons came to polish their arguments for their books and websites but went away when they got enough material.  I would say it was probably 2004 the shift to secular arguments was going strong and probably dominanted.  There were far fewer Evangelicals sticking around the original FAIR board/MADB than ZLMB.

 

-----

 

In the beginning, in various friendly forums (usually elists I believe) LDS were hanging out with people who wanted to talk religion, don't know how mixed faith those were or if it was getting together with like minded individuals to share research and such. Those tended to stay private and heavy into academics or whatever interest they shared.  Many FairMormon members came from these and never touched any message board.  In other places, such as AOL open forums for talking, which was for some reason turned over to Evangelical Christian moderators who were vigorous critics of LDS, Catholics and pretty much anyone else who was not "them" and the ruling elite gathered their armies and went for "them" with teeth bared.  They had the numbers and the defense stragety of just not allowing your opponent to stick around long enough to defend themselves.  Same antimormon, antiCatholic, antiJehovah Witness stuff culled from their antimormon ministry pamphlets and other resources over and over, people got smart and teamed up with the other faiths that were attacked as well and started to develop defense strageties to make being involved worthwhile since stuff was deleted, people banned, etc....so eventually FairMormon was born to start holding the research they have pulled together in one spot, easily accessible.

 

The whole faith crisis mood seemed started in small relatively closed groups it seemed to me where they supported themselves so well they usually ended up a postmormon group, others started there and then spread out carrying the narrative with them, some built their whole internet presence on a constant repetition of that narrative without really moving it forward at all, but got some followings.  Others got their following by having a few new things, but mainly old imo but presented with a new twist.  Sites became popular but few had real staying power.  Eventually there were enough though to be self sustaining.

------

ZLMB in particular started as a mirror site to the UTLM list or message board (can't remember) where LDS and others would be banned for linking anything positive.  Pacumeni started the site in 2001 I believe with a committee of 3 mods iirc, with himself the only LDS, one Catholic, one Protestant and equal treatment for all.  At the beginning there were a number of academic posters, including a few quite well known nonLDS ones, 5 or so months later I joined, even by then for some reason many of the academics had moved on, the openness of the board probably took too much time or was too unfocused.  Pac asked me to be a mod a few months later, other mods were added from time to time as needed for balance and aid.

Edited November 20, 2015 by Calm

[Calm]

"I perceived the antagonistic critics were getting a pass too often and that they were overrunning the board."

 

The problem with having a balanced approach of judgment when the approach to attacks weren't balanced.  It was much easier for those antagonistic to LDS to find ways to start inflammatory threads without breaking the rules because they knew what were the common push buttons of believers.  LDS had no such shortcut to knowing most posters who joined, especially since many of these posters went out of their way not to share their personal beliefs and what was important to them but were only there to attack the LDS faith, people, etc.

 

And it got flooded with disbelievers who didn't really care about substance but loved telling horror stories and in the decent discussions were there as cheerleaders for 'their team' but spent most of their time tossing rotten fruit at LDS defenders.  Invaded all the threads, endless posts and just wore out those who were trying to have a good discussion, older posters of all strips complained about the influx of newbies that came to dominate the board.  That was when moderating changed from fulfilling to drudgery.  If we didn't have the history of the earlier board there and wanted to keep early threads open for people doing research, I think the board would have been shut down.  But it would have been dumped by the provider if that happened and disappear.  I keep expecting it to happen sometime, but apparently there is enough activity to keep it going.

[why me]

Well, back in the day, there was a clear distinction between critic and apologist. The critic was basically a non-member who was very critical of the lds church. The apologist was a defender of the lds church. The debates were fierce and aggressive. The fairboard was an example of this. Now, the critics on this board tend to be members who are falling out with the lds church over issues. It is now much different from fairboard times.

 

Also, the posts are now different. Many posts have to do with 'identity' issues. In the past, the posts were about the book of mormon, joseph smith, historical issues etc. So, times have changed. I miss the old times when people were clearly marked as critics and believers. Now....it seems that the board is made up of members who are disagreeing with eachother.

 

I post on the other board too at times. However, the pro-mormons are scant. And the critrics have the board on their side because in the past, the critics who were banned from this board, went there. And there is more freedom on the other board but one must be careful of giving out any personal information. Here, there is less freedom and any strong defense of the lds church against a critic, member or otherwise, can get one on limited. The times have changed as members become more critical of their own church.

 

Also, it seems that both boards are receiving technical difficulties. Sometimes my computer blocks this site from coming on by giving me an 'apache' website. And the other board is getting technical difficulties.

Edited November 20, 2015 by why me

[Sanpitch]

I started going to message boards in about 1995-6 on LDSTalk.  Has anyone mentioned that board yet, I remember Scott Lloyd and Dan C Peterson posted there a lot.  Are there any other survivors here of that board?

[KevinG]

I was there under a different name.  I loved the more substantive doctrinal discussions that the scholars engaged in.  The couple of times I went to the "other" boards there was a lot of potshots, name calling and dirty dealing under the guise of freedom of speech and recovery.  I even got a profile on Dr. Shades board as one of the sycophants of the TBMs.  That kind of sophomoric nonsense was not for me.

[why me]

I was there under a different name.  I loved the more substantive doctrinal discussions that the scholars engaged in.  The couple of times I went to the "other" boards there was a lot of potshots, name calling and dirty dealing under the guise of freedom of speech and recovery.  I even got a profile on Dr. Shades board as one of the sycophants of the TBMs.  That kind of sophomoric nonsense was not for me.

I also got a profile from a person who cannot be named from that board. But that was years ago. I felt honored by the profile. But that was back in the day when I aggressively defended the lds church on the fairboard and it was noticed.

 

When I think about it, the whole scene changed when dan left the maxwell institute. There was a new mood in town. But the other board is still hard hitting against the lds and the lds church. There has been much hay about the new policy.

Edited November 20, 2015 by why me

[Tacenda]

I was late to the party...But my impression was faith crisis had little to do with it.  In the beginning it was the evangelical standard antimormon fare that had been going on for a couple of decades.  Rarely one would come across a cluster of intelligent conversation between educated believers of different faiths, that was interesting even when debating. Defense of the faith much more of a trigger, criticism was first in a fairly substantive way and then a poster who was getting trashed over in another place invited the critics of that board to come over to ZLMB to get their comeuppance by the posters there...the newbies were so annoying, not interested in having thoughtful, respectful conversation, changed the tone of the board over night, played passive aggressive manipulative games.  Heavy hitters that were still around faded pretty rapidly after that.

 

The evangelical arguments were very repetive and rather easily dealt with by asking them to examine their own faith with the same standard they examined ours.  Those faded away over time save when school got out or so it seemed and we'd get a flurry of young kids trying out what they learned in their how to witness to Mormons class.  A few more educated anti-mormons came to polish their arguments for their books and websites but went away when they got enough material.  I would say it was probably 2004 the shift to secular arguments was going strong and probably dominanted.  There were far fewer Evangelicals sticking around the original FAIR board/MADB than ZLMB.

 

-----

 

In the beginning, in various friendly forums (usually elists I believe) LDS were hanging out with people who wanted to talk religion, don't know how mixed faith those were or if it was getting together with like minded individuals to share research and such. Those tended to stay private and heavy into academics or whatever interest they shared.  Many FairMormon members came from these and never touched any message board.  In other places, such as AOL open forums for talking, which was for some reason turned over to Evangelical Christian moderators who were vigorous critics of LDS, Catholics and pretty much anyone else who was not "them" and the ruling elite gathered their armies and went for "them" with teeth bared.  They had the numbers and the defense stragety of just not allowing your opponent to stick around long enough to defend themselves.  Same antimormon, antiCatholic, antiJehovah Witness stuff culled from their antimormon ministry pamphlets and other resources over and over, people got smart and teamed up with the other faiths that were attacked as well and started to develop defense strageties to make being involved worthwhile since stuff was deleted, people banned, etc....so eventually FairMormon was born to start holding the research they have pulled together in one spot, easily accessible.

 

The whole faith crisis mood seemed started in small relatively closed groups it seemed to me where they supported themselves so well they usually ended up a postmormon group, others started there and then spread out carrying the narrative with them, some built their whole internet presence on a constant repetition of that narrative without really moving it forward at all, but got some followings.  Others got their following by having a few new things, but mainly old imo but presented with a new twist.  Sites became popular but few had real staying power.  Eventually there were enough though to be self sustaining.

------

ZLMB in particular started as a mirror site to the UTLM list or message board (can't remember) where LDS and others would be banned for linking anything positive.  Pacumeni started the site in 2001 I believe with a committee of 3 mods iirc, with himself the only LDS, one Catholic, one Protestant and equal treatment for all.  At the beginning there were a number of academic posters, including a few quite well known nonLDS ones, 5 or so months later I joined, even by then for some reason many of the academics had moved on, the openness of the board probably took too much time or was too unfocused.  Pac asked me to be a mod a few months later, other mods were added from time to time as needed for balance and aid.

 

Faith crises had little or nothing to do with it in the beginning. It was defending the Church against harsh and angry online anti-Mormons, mainly Evangelicals, although secularists and hardened apostates became the more predominant element later. Calm can check my memory on this.

Thanks you two, great history lesson Calm!

 

I hope this board keeps evolving into something that can change or enhance lives for the better!  I hope it never goes away, because it's the 'middlewayer' of both Mormon Discussions and LDS.net.  I really appreciate that members & non members can converse!  It's how I wish all religions could be! 

[Damien the Leper]

Soft? Me?

Perhaps I had more of a take-no-prisoners attitude then. I think I was pretty hard on Don Bradley (Onandagus). He let me have it on this board at the time he went public with his decision to come back to the Church. That caused some introspection on my part.

I think I'm still pretty unyielding, though. Individual observers will have to decide for themselves.

I became disenchanted with ZLMB when I perceived the antagonistic critics were getting a pass too often and that they were overrunning the board. I vented one day and unintentionally caused a pile-on with others chiming in. From my perspective, that was the beginning of the decline of ZLMB. I was already posting on the FAIR board by then, as were several of the regulars (Smac was one, Bernard Gui was another) and the FAIR board and this one, its successor, became my new home.

PS. Did you notice Daniel Peterson was a regular there? That's what initially attracted me to ZLMB. In addition to his own name, he used a couple of screen aliases at separate times. Logic Chopper was one.

Interesting.

No Daniel Peterson's screen name didn't show up while I was there.

[why me]

Thanks you two, great history lesson Calm!

 

I hope this board keeps evolving into something that can change or enhance lives for the better!  I hope it never goes away, because it's the 'middlewayer' of both Mormon Discussions and LDS.net.  I really appreciate that members & non members can converse!  It's how I wish all religions could be! 

Times have changed. Before both critics and apologists were debating joseph smith, the origins of the book of mormon, Sidney Rigdon, emma smith, the banking crisis of 1837, mormon migration, the 11 witnesses, book of mormon geography, where was bountiful in the book of mormon, bullseyes in the book of mormon etc. Now, the threads are much different: gays, falling away, being faithful, john dehlin, protests, women ordained? etc. What role does apologetics play in this debate? Not much.

 

In other words, in the past, critics and apologists were hammering big things out on the board. Now, we have a lot of identity issues and politics. And falling away topics. Postmodernism has come to the board as it did in the greater society beginning in the 1990's.

Edited November 20, 2015 by why me

[Scott Lloyd]

I started going to message boards in about 1995-6 on LDSTalk.  Has anyone mentioned that board yet, I remember Scott Lloyd and Dan C Peterson posted there a lot.  Are there any other survivors here of that board?

I was never on LDSTalk.

 

Back about that time, I had landed on the message board of the Dr. Laura Schlessinger website, and I posted there for quite a few years. For some reason, a lot of anti-Mormons were posting there, and I could not restrain myself from countering the bile they were constantly spewing forth. These tended almost exclusively to be strident, Mormon-bashing evangelicals.

 

That might be what you are remembering. I recall that someone on that board mentioned Dr. Peterson was posting on ZLMB (had mentioned me by name, in fact) and that's how I found ZLMB.

 

My experience posting on the Dr. Laura board was quite a bit different than my experience later on ZLMB and other boards. Most of the Church's antagonists there were so full of crap, it was easy to counter their ignorance-driven attacks. On the Mormonism-related boards, people have tended to be a bit more intellectual -- if not knowledgeable -- although there is a great deal of outlandishness on those boards as well.

Edited November 20, 2015 by Scott Lloyd