Analytics Posted October 30, 2015 Posted October 30, 2015 My wife and I have started watching the series Supernatural on Netflix. For those of you who are unfamiliar with the show, it takes place in modern America and is about two 20-something year old brothers who are "hunters." They travel the country in an extremely cool 68 Chevy Impala, investigating crimes or events that have anomalous features. It turns out that the strange events are almost always strange because they involve the things they are hunting: evil, supernatural creatures. The show features witchcraft, black magic, Satanism, werewolves, Lucifer, fallen angels, vampires, ghosts, digging up graves to burn bones, hex bags, deals with principalities at the crossroads, hellhounds, inverted hexagons, spells in Latin, blood sacrifice, Satanic symbols that summon evil beings, reapers, four horsemen, strigas, tulgas, wendigos, and just about every evil supernatural entity that has been feared in the last 4,000 years. And demons. LOTS of demons. Personally, I think the show is quite cool and fun, in a campy way. However, I can't but help be reminded about how absolutely terrified I was of Satan and demonic position when I was a teenager in the 1980's, which brings me to the main topic of the thread. We are often told that one of the most powerful and convincing proofs of the church are the testimonies of the 11 witnesses. If 11 witnesses is proof that something is true, how powerful would be the witness of 60 witnesses? If 60 people claimed something was true, would that prove it was? What I'm referring to, of course, is the Pace Memorandum. In 1989 and 1990, Glenn L. Pace was the second councilor to the Presiding Bishop. Over that time period, on a weekly basis he met with people who claimed to be the victims of satanic abuse. He detailed his findings in a memorandum to the Strengthening Church Members Committee, which was later leaked. In Bishop Pace's own words: The spiritual indoctrination which takes place during the physical abuse is one of the most difficult to overcome. In addition to experiencing stark terror and pain, the children are also instructed in satanic doctrine. Everything is completely reversed: white is black, black is white, good is bad, bad is good, Satan is going to rule during the Millennium. Children are put in a situation where they believe they are going to die--such as being buried alive or being placed in a plastic bag and immersed in water. Prior to doing so, the abuser tells the child to pray to Jesus to see if He will save her. Imagine a seven year old girl, having been told she is going to die, praying to Jesus to save her and nothing happens--then at the last moment she is rescued, but the person saving her is a representative of Satan. He uses this experience to convince her that the only person who really cares about her is Satan, she is Satan's child and she might as well become loyal to him. Just before or shortly after their baptism into the Church, children are baptized by blood into the satanic order which is meant to cancel out their baptism into the Church. They will be asked if they understand or have ever felt the Holy Ghost. When they reply that they have, they will be reminded of the horrible things they have participated in and will be told that they have become a son (or daughter) of perdition and, therefore, have no chance of being saved or loved by our Father in heaven or Jesus.... I don't pretend to know how prevalent the problem is. All I know is that I have met with 60 victims. Assuming each one comes from a coven of 13, we are talking about the involvement of 800 or so right here on the Wasatch Front. Obviously, I have only seen those coming forth to get help. They are in their twenties and thirties for the most part. I can only assume that it is expanding geometrically and am horrified the numbers represented by the generation who are now children and teenagers. [For more information about the memorandum and a link to the full text, see this article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pace_memorandum] He said that when sixty witnesses testify to the same type of torture and murder, it becomes impossible for him, personally, not to believe them. Were you guys scared of Satan, demonic possession, the occult, and listening to Beatles albums backwards when you were younger? Are you still scared now? Happy Halloween!!! 1
Popular Post Buckeye Posted October 30, 2015 Popular Post Posted October 30, 2015 Of course I believe in demonic possession. It happens to my kids this time every year when the come home with sacks full of candy and are told they can only keep their 20 favorite pieces. Absolute pandemonium, speaking in tongues, and wailing and gnashing of teeth. 6
Analytics Posted October 30, 2015 Author Posted October 30, 2015 Of course I believe in demonic possession. It happens to my kids this time every year when the come home with sacks full of candy and are told they can only keep their 20 favorite pieces. Absolute pandemonium, speaking in tongues, and wailing and gnashing of teeth. That's the kind of physical evidence I can believe in! 2
HappyJackWagon Posted October 30, 2015 Posted October 30, 2015 Supernatural is a fun show. "Camp" is a great way to describe it. Frankly, the quantity of witnesses mean nothing to me. I could have a million people swear to me that they have the ability to heal people telepathically or through energy healings such as Reiki and I'm not going to believe them. The quality of the witness matters much more. Is the witness reliable? What else have they witnessed to? Have they also been abducted by aliens or have they witnessed to other prophets such as Strang? 60, 11, 100; it doesn't matter if they're crazy or have a history of blatant dishonesty. I was always taught that a demon could only possess you if you invited the demon in but that things such as ouiga boards would invite the demon. It's all silliness. 1
Analytics Posted October 30, 2015 Author Posted October 30, 2015 Supernatural is a fun show. "Camp" is a great way to describe it. Frankly, the quantity of witnesses mean nothing to me. I could have a million people swear to me that they have the ability to heal people telepathically or through energy healings such as Reiki and I'm not going to believe them. The quality of the witness matters much more. Is the witness reliable? What else have they witnessed to? Have they also been abducted by aliens or have they witnessed to other prophets such as Strang? 60, 11, 100; it doesn't matter if they're crazy or have a history of blatant dishonesty. I was always taught that a demon could only possess you if you invited the demon in but that things such as ouiga boards would invite the demon. It's all silliness. My 9th-grade seminary teacher repeatedly told a story from his mission about a woman was possessed by demons, and how he and his companion would repeatedly cast out the demons, only to have them return within 24 hours. After 4 or 5 rounds of this, he asked the demon how come he wasn't staying away, and the demon said, "there is only one person on earth with the power to keep me away from this soul." He concluded that Lucifer himself was the only principality so powerful that only the Prophet himself had the keys to permanently cast him out, so he went to the mission president about it, hoping that the appropriate authorities would come help with the exorcism. Instead, the mission president instructed the young missionary to stay away from this woman. The moral of the story was to stay away from Ouija boards, because you couldn't necessarily rely on any old Melchisedec priesthood holder having the keys to permanently cast out the evil spirits that might poses you. Scary stuff. 1
HappyJackWagon Posted October 30, 2015 Posted October 30, 2015 My 9th-grade seminary teacher repeatedly told a story from his mission about a woman was possessed by demons, and how he and his companion would repeatedly cast out the demons, only to have them return within 24 hours. After 4 or 5 rounds of this, he asked the demon how come he wasn't staying away, and the demon said, "there is only one person on earth with the power to keep me away from this soul." He concluded that Lucifer himself was the only principality so powerful that only the Prophet himself had the keys to permanently cast him out, so he went to the mission president about it, hoping that the appropriate authorities would come help with the exorcism. Instead, the mission president instructed the young missionary to stay away from this woman. The moral of the story was to stay away from Ouija boards, because you couldn't necessarily rely on any old Melchisedec priesthood holder having the keys to permanently cast out the evil spirits that might poses you. Scary stuff.Or you could always get "The" tattoo like the WInchesters that will always keep the demons away. I hear a lot more of these kind of possession stories from my father's generattion than from the younger generation. Not sure what has changed.
strappinglad Posted October 30, 2015 Posted October 30, 2015 Christ Himself said there were demons who needed special treatment in order for them to leave. If you think it is all silly then argue with Christ and the scriptures. I'm sure that a lot of what passed for possession was mental illness. Some, however, was not. The sixty witnesses basically said there was torture and murder under the guise of Satanism. Whether or not you believe that Satan was the instigator , such activity is well within the realm of truth. There are just too many examples of kidnapping, torture and murder of innocents, to dismiss it all as imagination. 1
Analytics Posted October 30, 2015 Author Posted October 30, 2015 Or you could always get "The" tattoo like the WInchesters that will always keep the demons away. I hear a lot more of these kind of possession stories from my father's generattion than from the younger generation. Not sure what has changed. I totally would have got the tattoo, lol. With regards to your second point.... Christ Himself said there were demons who needed special treatment in order for them to leave. If you think it is all silly then argue with Christ and the scriptures.... May I ask you about how old you are? It seems the younger Baby Boomers and older Gen-Xers got the worst of the demon scare. Is that your age bracket, or are you younger?
Sanpitch Posted October 30, 2015 Posted October 30, 2015 I've always thought that what is needed is for everybody to see the evidence for themselves and not rely on somebody else from a hundred and fifty years ago. Why not what are they hiding that can't revealed to us today?
strappinglad Posted October 30, 2015 Posted October 30, 2015 I'm ancient. I have lived long enough to know that messing with the dark side is not wise. I also don't plan sightseeing trips to Chernobyl on the off chance they are wrong about the radiation levels. For me, there is sufficient wickedness in the regular mortal beings which inhabit this planet. I have never found the scriptures ' scary' . Jeffrey Dahmer was scary. Dan Lafferty and I were friends in our youth. Scary can sneak up on you ! 3
Jeanne Posted October 30, 2015 Posted October 30, 2015 (edited) This thread is giving me the "heebie jeebies" Happy Halloween everybody! Edited October 30, 2015 by Jeanne 1
ERayR Posted October 30, 2015 Posted October 30, 2015 Supernatural is a fun show. "Camp" is a great way to describe it. Frankly, the quantity of witnesses mean nothing to me. I could have a million people swear to me that they have the ability to heal people telepathically or through energy healings such as Reiki and I'm not going to believe them. The quality of the witness matters much more. Is the witness reliable? What else have they witnessed to? Have they also been abducted by aliens or have they witnessed to other prophets such as Strang? 60, 11, 100; it doesn't matter if they're crazy or have a history of blatant dishonesty. I was always taught that a demon could only possess you if you invited the demon in but that things such as ouiga boards would invite the demon. It's all silliness. The blood and gore soon gets old and becomes a turnoff.
ERayR Posted October 30, 2015 Posted October 30, 2015 Supernatural is a fun show. "Camp" is a great way to describe it. Frankly, the quantity of witnesses mean nothing to me. I could have a million people swear to me that they have the ability to heal people telepathically or through energy healings such as Reiki and I'm not going to believe them. The quality of the witness matters much more. Is the witness reliable? What else have they witnessed to? Have they also been abducted by aliens or have they witnessed to other prophets such as Strang? 60, 11, 100; it doesn't matter if they're crazy or have a history of blatant dishonesty. I was always taught that a demon could only possess you if you invited the demon in but that things such as ouiga boards would invite the demon. It's all silliness. That all depends on whether it happens to you or not.
Calm Posted October 31, 2015 Posted October 31, 2015 The sixty witnesses basically said there was torture and murder under the guise of Satanism. Whether or not you believe that Satan was the instigator , such activity is well within the realm of truth. There are just too many examples of kidnapping, torture and murder of innocents, to dismiss it all as imagination.Perhaps. But when the testimony comes from alleged recovered memories where people have to be led through a process to supposedly remember events, red flags should be going way up. 1
strappinglad Posted October 31, 2015 Posted October 31, 2015 Perhaps. But when the testimony comes from alleged recovered memories where people have to be led through a process to supposedly remember events, red flags should be going way up. I totally agree. I was referring to actual police investigations and evidence of crimes. I have no faith in recovered memory. Witness the Nibley fiasco.
MiserereNobis Posted October 31, 2015 Posted October 31, 2015 Do you LDS folk really believe in demonic possession? Is there a specific ordinance for casting out the demons, beyond using the name of Christ? There is a long history in Catholicism of dealing with demons and exorcisms. There are many books written about the subject. One that scared me quite a bit when I read it is "Hostage to the Devil" by Fr. Malachi Martin (1976). Devils and demons and possession are real, even if many (most?) claims turn out to be mental health issues. I disagree with Nehor's statement that devils are banal. They have hyper-intelligence (they are fallen angels) and have decided to direct it towards evil. I've got my holy water, crucifix, and St. Benedict's medal. What do you Mormons have? 1
strappinglad Posted October 31, 2015 Posted October 31, 2015 I've got my holy water, crucifix, and St. Benedict's medal. What do you Mormons have? Eph 6 : 11-18 It least that is what we are SUPPOSED to have.
Kenngo1969 Posted October 31, 2015 Posted October 31, 2015 On another occasion when a similar topic came up, I said: I think, perhaps, that mental illness can make one more prone to the Adversary's influence (while such experience has not involved possession, I have personal experience with this). I would not, however, conflate mental illness with possession by or influence of the Adversary. They are two different things, even though they might be related in some cases and in some ways. I know two things: (1) I know the Adversary is real; and (2) I know that almost any being who has a body ultimately has (or at least can have) power over one who does not. I don't have any reason to doubt any of these accounts. I have never, to the best of my knowledge, met anyone who has shared such an account on this thread, but I have no reason to believe that these people are not reasonably sane, reasonably well-adjusted, reasonably intelligent individuals. If they tell me that [x] happened, then I have little reason to doubt that [x] happened. I believe that there was a war in Heaven, and that the battle begun there continues here. That said, while Satan and his minions may have power to bruise my heel, I have power to crush their heads (along with, as I said, most anyone who has a body). To someone who responded skeptically to the topic then under discussion, I wrote: Skepticism can be just as much a tool of the Adversary as can deliberately doing things that leave one vulnerable to his influence. You probably think that your skepticism renders you invulnerable to having such experiences, when in fact the opposite is true. And the problem is that by the time you recognize this, it may be too late for you to do anything about it ("Hey, maybe there is something to the accounts of these types of experiences after all”). Nephi describes you perfectly:[2 Nephi 28:22] And behold, others he flattereth away, and telleth them there is no hell; and he saith unto them: I am no devil, for there is none—and thus he whispereth in their ears, until he grasps them with his awful chains, from whence there is no deliverance I prefer my approach, previously stated, which I believe accomplishes two things, (a) recognizing reality, while (b) not being unduly fearful or preoccupied that such a reality exists: (1) I know the Adversary is real; (2) I know that the battle (perhaps a better word would be the effort) he began in the premortal life to try to win the souls of men continues here on earth; and (3) I know that any being with a body has (or can have) power to triumph over any being without one.While I don’t favor your approach to things spiritual, and while we fundamentally disagree, nevertheless, I wish you well.
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