Senator Posted October 21, 2015 Posted October 21, 2015 "Leaving the Church" is only apostasy if the Church isn't in apostasy. And who gets to decide if the church is in apostasy?
JLHPROF Posted October 21, 2015 Author Posted October 21, 2015 I don't see anything that says specifically that these ordinances and practices never change. We know, for example, that the garment itself has changed, as have the temple ceremonies, but that doesn't change the ordinance, does it? I wonder what would happen if someone wanted to be baptized but was in an ICU or otherwise unable to be baptized by immersion. Would the church allow a modified form? I have no idea. Isaiah 24:5The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.(Not talking about the world - they were never under the everlasting covenant nor did they have the ordinances, must be talking about a group of people that possessed the ordinances to change them and under a covenant to break it). Ordinances instituted in the heavens before the foundation of the world, in the priesthood, for the salvation of men, are not to be altered or changed. All must be saved on the same principles. - Joseph Smith
JLHPROF Posted October 21, 2015 Author Posted October 21, 2015 And who gets to decide if the church is in apostasy? God.
Senator Posted October 21, 2015 Posted October 21, 2015 God.And how do we know God's will for his church?
jkwilliams Posted October 21, 2015 Posted October 21, 2015 Isaiah 24:5The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.(Not talking about the world - they were never under the everlasting covenant nor did they have the ordinances, must be talking about a group of people that possessed the ordinances to change them and under a covenant to break it). Ordinances instituted in the heavens before the foundation of the world, in the priesthood, for the salvation of men, are not to be altered or changed. All must be saved on the same principles. - Joseph Smith Given that ordinances have been changed multiple times in the history of the church, these statements may not mean what you think. If altering ordinances means a church is in apostasy, the LDS church has been in apostasy for a long time.
JLHPROF Posted October 21, 2015 Author Posted October 21, 2015 Given that ordinances have been changed multiple times in the history of the church, these statements may not mean what you think. If altering ordinances means a church is in apostasy, the LDS church has been in apostasy for a long time. Full Apostasy/Slightly out of order and waiting to be corrected - it's the thinnest of lines.
Gray Posted October 21, 2015 Posted October 21, 2015 Christ and His church are inseparable. Apostacy against the one is apostacy against the other. This brings to mind something Richard Bushman asked recently: "Should not Mormons have a connection with God that goes beyond the Church? Do we worship God or do we worship Mormonism?" 2
jkwilliams Posted October 21, 2015 Posted October 21, 2015 Full Apostasy/Slightly out of order and waiting to be corrected - it's the thinnest of lines. So, do you think the church is slightly out of order for having changed the ordinances?
JLHPROF Posted October 21, 2015 Author Posted October 21, 2015 (edited) So, do you think the church is slightly out of order for having changed the ordinances? Personally, yes, I really do.But I sustain our leaders as holding the keys and authority of the priesthood from God correctly conferred and unique in all the world, even in their fallibility.And I trust God and the scriptures that tell us things will be fixed before the return of the Savior and that there will never be an apostasy so great that the keys will be taken and another restoration needed, so I'm content to watch and pray. It's my middle ground. Edited October 21, 2015 by JLHPROF
KevinG Posted October 21, 2015 Posted October 21, 2015 If the Lord requires us to wear dungarees in this dispensation as a token of our obedience to the Gospel, then that is what is necessary for us to prepare. A little known early church authority has something to say about the middle ground: “I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by Him, I am fearful lest they settle down in a state of self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purpose of God in their salvation, and weaken that influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the paths the Lord dictates or not.” - Brigham Young I witness far too many people in the church and disenfranchised of the church that excuse themselves from the decision making process, only to turn around and blame those to whom they ceded their privileged of moral agency when things went bad. 1
Senator Posted October 21, 2015 Posted October 21, 2015 This brings to mind something Richard Bushman asked recently: "Should not Mormons have a connection with God that goes beyond the Church? Do we worship God or do we worship Mormonism?" The idea would have more staying power, had he said that in a GC address. No, I don't think it would fly.
Senator Posted October 21, 2015 Posted October 21, 2015 Personally, yes, I really do. So you, and the church, are slightly apostate? 1
KevinG Posted October 21, 2015 Posted October 21, 2015 This brings to mind something Richard Bushman asked recently: "Should not Mormons have a connection with God that goes beyond the Church? Do we worship God or do we worship Mormonism?" The idea would have more staying power, had he said that in a GC address. No, I don't think it would fly. I dunno... We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things. - Article of Faith 13 1
jkwilliams Posted October 21, 2015 Posted October 21, 2015 Personally, yes, I really do.But I sustain our leaders as holding the keys and authority of the priesthood from God correctly conferred and unique in all the world, even in their fallibility.And I trust God and the scriptures that tell us things will be fixed before the return of the Savior and that there will never be an apostasy so great that the keys will be taken and another restoration needed, so I'm content to watch and pray. It's my middle ground. Well, you're consistent. I personally was quite happy when the ordinances changed. But then I'm an apostate.
KevinG Posted October 21, 2015 Posted October 21, 2015 (edited) So you, and the church, are slightly apostate? Apostate is a rather hard line to take when someone admits to not having a fullness of God's knowledge yet. A less cynical reading of JLHPROF's (and jkwilliam's) comments might see humility and inquiring for the truth. A more cynical reading helps illustrate my point above that far too many people in the church and disenfranchised of the church excuse themselves from the decision making process, only to turn around and blame those to whom they ceded their privileged of moral agency when things went bad. Edited October 21, 2015 by KevinG
Senator Posted October 21, 2015 Posted October 21, 2015 I dunno... We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things. - Article of Faith 13 Correct As Brigham Young stated, all truth belongs to the church. The trick is determining just what "seek after these things" entails?
Senator Posted October 21, 2015 Posted October 21, 2015 Apostate is a rather hard line to take when someone admits to not having a fullness of God's knowledge yet. He appears to agree with me.
Gray Posted October 21, 2015 Posted October 21, 2015 (edited) The idea would have more staying power, had he said that in a GC address. No, I don't think it would fly. Why would Richard Bushman be speaking in GC? In any case, your view seems to amount to ecclesiolatry. Jesus and the Church become blurred and indistinguishable. Edited October 21, 2015 by Gray
CV75 Posted October 21, 2015 Posted October 21, 2015 Am I the only one who believes that both principles of sustaining our head AND thinking for ourselves can be true and aren't mutually exclusive?Well since I bet everyone of us is fallible and does not either think for himself (of think too much for himself) or sustain the prophet perfectly, I would say no... I mean yes... I mean both... I mean neither... I mean there are many other things to consider in our godly walk and conversation. 1
Senator Posted October 21, 2015 Posted October 21, 2015 Jesus and the Church become blurred and indistinguishable. Sounds like Zion!
KevinG Posted October 21, 2015 Posted October 21, 2015 He appears to agree with me. We won't know how he feels until he writes a response. Your and my opinions notwithstanding.
KevinG Posted October 21, 2015 Posted October 21, 2015 Correct As Brigham Young stated, all truth belongs to the church. The trick is determining just what "seek after these things" entails? There is a thread for that! http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/66247-responsible-revelation/
Senator Posted October 21, 2015 Posted October 21, 2015 We won't know how he feels until he writes a response. Your and my opinions notwithstanding.I was going by the rep point he gave to my question.
KevinG Posted October 21, 2015 Posted October 21, 2015 I was going by the rep point he gave to my question. That would be an indication, yes!
HappyJackWagon Posted October 21, 2015 Posted October 21, 2015 Full Apostasy/Slightly out of order and waiting to be corrected - it's the thinnest of lines.Kind of like the difference between dead and mostly dead. How is "wearing the garment" an eternal principle? Where is this eternal principle taught or covenanted?
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