bluebell Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 I'm just wondering about religious people's beliefs concerning satan. Do you believe he actually exists and that he works to thwart God's intentions? I see two basic camps on this board among theists-those who blame everything they disagree with on him and those who blame absolutely nothing of consequence on him. I just thought it would be an interesting topic to understand better.
Popular Post Storm Rider Posted October 9, 2015 Popular Post Posted October 9, 2015 Yup, I believe he is a real individual and father of all that is evil in the world. He is a fallen angel and does all he can to thwart God's plan. 5
jkwilliams Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 Whether he exists or not, he is a convenient scapegoat for our own bad desires and choices. My mission president's wife once confessed to having lied about something, and she said, "It's just that awful Satan! I want to do what's right, but he talks me into doing things I don't want to do!" Her husband said, "We don't sin because Satan tells us to sin. We sin because we like it." That has stuck with me all these years. 2
bluebell Posted October 9, 2015 Author Posted October 9, 2015 Whether he exists or not, he is a convenient scapegoat for our own bad desires and choices. My mission president's wife once confessed to having lied about something, and she said, "It's just that awful Satan! I want to do what's right, but he talks me into doing things I don't want to do!" Her husband said, "We don't sin because Satan tells us to sin. We sin because we like it." That has stuck with me all these years. Very true. If satan is real, what do you believe he does? If we don't sin because of satan, then what is his purpose?
jkwilliams Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 Very true. If satan is real, what do you believe he does? If we don't sin because of satan, then what is his purpose? My point was that, real or not, Satan can't get us to do what we don't want to do. I have no idea if there is an actual being called Satan or with the function of tempting people to disobey. I certainly think humans are capable of doing terrible things on their own without Satan egging them on. 2
stemelbow Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 I'm not really settled on the reality of the devil individual. I do think influence is real, but perhaps the whole satan story is allegory--meaning his influence is real and powerful. Without us knowing the eternities perhaps it was easiest to convey the meaning of such influence through a story about how one rebelled and swayed a huge number to follow him. It gives us the impression that we too can easily led off down the wrong path. But, I'm certainly not settled. Just open to the ideas. It could be he is real, or it could be he is not. Either way, evil designs are rolling along thwarting many good intentions. 2
iWriteStuff Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 (edited) I'm curious if there's anyone out there who can support the notion that A) there *isn't* a satan or B) that it isn't a specific individual. Got any scriptures to back up the notion that he either doesn't exist or is a multitude of individuals rather than a "fallen angel"/Lucifer/Son of the Morning/"The glory be mine forever" personage with a distinct mission and purpose? Maybe I'm not as terrific at parsing verses of scripture or re-interpreting everything as an "allegory" rather than a literal reality... Edited October 9, 2015 by iWriteStuff
bluebell Posted October 9, 2015 Author Posted October 9, 2015 My point was that, real or not, Satan can't get us to do what we don't want to do. I have no idea if there is an actual being called Satan or with the function of tempting people to disobey. I certainly think humans are capable of doing terrible things on their own without Satan egging them on. I got your point, but it leads to a very obvious question. If he is real, and he can't get us to do what we don't want to do in the first place, then what's his purpose?
VideoGameJunkie Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 I not only believe that Satan tempts us in all things, I also believe the 1/3 host of heaven who followed him also tempt us all the time. It's a lot of people constantly challenging our minds.
stemelbow Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 I'm curious if there's anyone out there who can support the notion that A) there *isn't* a satan or B) that it isn't a specific individual. Got any scriptures to back up the notion that he either doesn't exist or is a multitude of individuals rather than a "fallen angel"/Lucifer/Son of the Morning/"The glory be mine forever" personage with a distinct mission and purpose. Why be stuck on scripture? Scripture may or may not be able to explain reality. If he is real, then scripture tells us so. If he is not, then scripture could very well be good, but allegorical. 1
jkwilliams Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 I got your point, but it leads to a very obvious question. If he is real, and he can't get us to do what we don't want to do in the first place, then what's his purpose? Scapegoat?
stemelbow Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 I got your point, but it leads to a very obvious question. If he is real, and he can't get us to do what we don't want to do in the first place, then what's his purpose? If he is real, then it seems obvious his influence is carried by those who do evil things. we're tempted when evil things become appealing. He's just trying to make evil things appear reasonable, I suppose. 1
CA Steve Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 So is it possible to maintain a belief in the plan of salvation without believing in a literal Satan?
Gray Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 (edited) I view Satan as a metaphor or a personification of evil, not as an actual disembodied ego. Evil itself is real, so in that sense so is Satan. Edited October 9, 2015 by Gray 4
iWriteStuff Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 Why be stuck on scripture? Scripture may or may not be able to explain reality. If he is real, then scripture tells us so. If he is not, then scripture could very well be good, but allegorical.So was it literal or allegorical when Jesus was tempted by Satan in the wilderness after 40 days of fasting? Seems like a very specific conversation he had, or was he talking to himself?
stemelbow Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 So is it possible to maintain a belief in the plan of salvation without believing in a literal Satan? I'd say yes.
stemelbow Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 So was it literal or allegorical when Jesus was tempted by Satan in the wilderness after 40 days of fasting? I'd say I don't know. But I can see either/or proposition possible. Jesus could have been tempted without an actual being tempting Him. Seems like a very specific conversation he had, or was he talking to himself? The conversation itself could have been allegory. If what we have in the NT is told as Jesus told it, then it's possible He told it as a parable, yet the original listeners didn't realize that it was parable. he taught parable afterall. I can't put that past Him and those who wrote the NT--which in large measure, as biblical scholarship has shown, was not written by eye witnesses. 1
iWriteStuff Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 The conversation itself could have been allegory. If what we have in the NT is told as Jesus told it, then it's possible He told it as a parable, yet the original listeners didn't realize that it was parable. he taught parable afterall. I can't put that past Him and those who wrote the NT--which in large measure, as biblical scholarship has shown, was not written by eye witnesses.Interesting proposition. Have you ever come across any statements by Bible scholars, General Authorities, or otherwise who suggest that Jesus' conversation with Satan was allegorical? If so, would you mind sharing?
bluebell Posted October 9, 2015 Author Posted October 9, 2015 Scapegoat? So if satan's real, you believe that God put him here as a scapegoat?
jkwilliams Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 (edited) So if satan's real, you believe that God put him here as a scapegoat? I was being facetious, sorry. Satan is a name we give to every selfish or evil impulse we have because we don't like admitting that those impulses come from within us, not from an external being trying to sway us. We are the sources of our own evil. Of course, if there is no Satan, how do we explain Miley Cyrus? Edited October 9, 2015 by jkwilliams 1
bluebell Posted October 9, 2015 Author Posted October 9, 2015 I was being facetious, sorry. Satan is a name we give to every selfish or evil impulse we have because we don't like admitting that those impulses come from within us, not from an external being trying to sway us. We are the sources of our own evil. Of course, if there is no Satan, how do we explain Miley Cyrus? So, you don't believe that satan is real is what I'm getting. Am i understanding you correctly?
jkwilliams Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 (edited) So, you don't believe that satan is real is what I'm getting. Am i understanding you correctly? I don't know, honestly, but I don't think it matters. We are perfectly capable of our own evil. We don't need Satan. Edited October 9, 2015 by jkwilliams 3
stemelbow Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 Interesting proposition. Have you ever come across any statements by Bible scholars, General Authorities, or otherwise who suggest that Jesus' conversation with Satan was allegorical? If so, would you mind sharing? Not that I recall off-hand. I can look around though and get back to you.
jkwilliams Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 Not that I recall off-hand. I can look around though and get back to you. There are lots of Bible scholars who are non-literalists. Probably not too many GAs, though. 1
stemelbow Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 I don't know, honestly, but I don't think it matters. We are perfectly capable of our own evil. We don't need Satan. Agreed. LDS thought could very well go well with a non-literal Satan figure, if ya think about it. We are eternal--at least that which was used to form our spirits. Also, "the plan" is eternal too. God, as it is, functions within eternal laws. He can't go outside them or escape them. Thus, it could then be true that evil designs have always been, outside of God. As evil designs work in us, they need not have a person authoring them, or controlling them. They just come as we use our cognition, when we face choice and possibility.
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