Two New Ensign Articles Affirming Marriage Between A Man And A Woman

[Storm Rider]

How does a gay church member enter the covenant of marriage?

Also, with your "give up, get over" line, are you suggesting that gay church members can give up or get over their sexual orientation?

 

I don't think that CV is saying anything new; repent and marry a member of the opposite sex.  I think we need to acknowledge that for many that identify as homosexual, this type of option is not really an option at all.  

 

I do think there is a conversation about what is most important in the life of a disciple of Christ - is it to serve God or to serve something else, specifically, follow their sexual desires.  What is the value of sexual identity when it comes to discipleship?  

 

Are humans incapable of suppressing their sexual desires?  It seems the answer to this is a resounding yes; humans have done this since the beginning.  However, there are some who prioritize their sexual expression as their first priority and then fit everything else into that paradigm including God.  

 

It is a matter of choice for each individual - who or what is their first priority.  For a disciple of Christ it is clear that He is, or should be, our first priority.  Our existence is focused on overcoming our shortcomings in service to him and learning to completely repent of our sins.  We may fail in that pursuit, but that should not prevent us from attempting to pursue it.  

 

Our gay brothers and sisters are firmly in the same boat as everyone else and must also choose whom they will serve and who will be their first priority.  

Edited September 9, 2015 by Storm Rider

[Teancum]

I think a clearer statement is that for thousands of years God has stated that homosexual behavior is a sin.  At no time in history has the world stated that homosexual behavior is not a sin.  That is not to say that there have been those who have always practiced this behavior.  However, just because one or many seek to make homosexual behavior not a sin, does not make it so.  

 

While personally I am not certain that your statement about homosexual behavior being a sin for thousands of years is accurate.   The passages in the Bible may seem to say that. I have read Bible scholars who argue those verses refer to male prostitution.  But let's assume you are correct.  The Bible certainly is a poor standard for determining truth, right, wrong, etc.  It is anything but consistent.

 

Further according to Joseph Smith God can change his mind about on just about anything. I will try once again for the third time to see if anyone can answer this.  Here is what Joseph said about such things when trying to persuade Nancy Rigdon to marry him:

 

 "Happiness is the object and design of our existence; and will be the end thereof, if we pursue the path that leads to it; and this path is virtue, uprightness, faithfulness, holiness, and keeping all the commandments of God. But we cannot keep all the commandments without first knowing them, and we cannot expect to know all, or more than we now know unless we comply with or keep those we have already received. That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another."

"God said, "Thou shalt not kill;" at another time He said "Thou shalt utterly destroy." This is the principle on which the government of heaven is conducted—by revelation adapted to the circumstances in which the children of the kingdom are placed. Whatever God requires is right, no matter what it is, although we may not see the reason thereof till long after the events transpire. If we seek first the kingdom of God, all good things will be added. So with Solomon: first he asked wisdom, and God gave it him, and with it every desire of his heart, even things which might be considered abominable to all who understand the order of heaven only in part, but which in reality were right because God gave and sanctioned by special revelation."

"A parent may whip a child, and justly, too, because he stole an apple; whereas if the child had asked for the apple, and the parent had given it, the child would have eaten it with a better appetite; there would have been no stripes; all the pleasure of the apple would have been secured, all the misery of stealing lost."

"This principle will justly apply to all of God's dealings with His children. Everything that God gives us is lawful and right; and it is proper that we should enjoy His gifts and blessings whenever and wherever He is disposed to bestow; but if we should seize upon those same blessings and enjoyments without law, without revelation, without commandment, those blessings and enjoyments would prove cursings and vexations in the end, and we should have to lie down in sorrow and wailings of everlasting regret. But in obedience there is joy and peace unspotted, unalloyed; and as God has designed our happiness—and the happiness of all His creatures, he never has—He never will institute an ordinance or give a commandment to His people that is not calculated in its nature to promote that happiness which He has designed, and which will not end in the greatest amount of good and glory to those who become the recipients of his law and ordinances. Blessings offered, but rejected, are no longer blessings, but become like the talent hid in the earth by the wicked and slothful servant; the proffered good returns to the giver; the blessing is bestowed on those who will receive and occupy; for unto him that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundantly, but unto him that hath not or will not receive, shall be taken away that which he hath, or might have had."

Be wise today; 'tis madness to defer:

Next day the fatal precedent may plead.

Thus on till wisdom is pushed out of time

Into eternity.

"Our heavenly Father is more liberal in His views, and boundless in His mercies and blessings, than we are ready to believe or receive; and, at the same time, is more terrible to the workers of iniquity, more awful in the executions of His punishments, and more ready to detect every false way, than we are apt to suppose Him to be. He will be inquired of by His children. He says: "Ask and ye shall receive, seek and ye shall find;" but, if you will take that which is not your own, or which I have not given you, you shall be rewarded according to your deeds; but no good thing will I withhold from them who walk uprightly before me, and do my will in all things—who will listen to my voice and to the voice of my servant whom I have sent; for I delight in those who seek diligently to know my precepts, and abide by the law of my kingdom; for all things shall be made known unto them in mine own due time, and in the end they shall have joy."

- Official History of the Church, Vol. 5, p.134-136, See also "The Letter of the Prophet, Joseph Smith to Miss Nancy Rigdon," Joseph Smith Collection, LDS archives

 

 

So God could give a revelation that declares homosexual unions acceptable as well as directing them to be sanctified in the temple.

 

Do I think the LDS Church will ever claim such a revelation.  No likely.  But it could happen.  After all Joseph thought God was telling him to marry many women and that was repugnant to many Latter-Saints.   But hey as Joseph said f if God commands then do it!  Brigham and company argued God would never command to disband the practice of plural marriage but President Woodruff apparently got a different message.

[Gray]

I think a clearer statement is that for thousands of years God has stated that homosexual behavior is a sin.  At no time in history has the world stated that homosexual behavior is not a sin.  That is not to say that there have been those who have always practiced this behavior.  However, just because one or many seek to make homosexual behavior not a sin, does not make it so.  

 

God has never offered a direct quote on the topic. 

[rockpond]

I don't think that CV is saying anything new; repent and marry a member of the opposite sex.  I think we need to acknowledge that for many that identify as homosexual, this type of option is not really an option at all.  

 

I do think there is a conversation about what is most important in the life of a disciple of Christ - is it to serve God or to serve something else, specifically, follow their sexual desires.  What is the value of sexual identity when it comes to discipleship?  

 

Are humans incapable of suppressing their sexual desires?  It seems the answer to this is a resounding yes; humans have done this since the beginning.  However, there are some who prioritize their sexual expression as their first priority and then fit everything else into that paradigm including God.  

 

It is a matter of choice for each individual - who or what is their first priority.  For a disciple of Christ it is clear that He is, or should be, our first priority.  Our existence is focused on overcoming our shortcomings in service to him and learning to completely repent of our sins.  We may fail in that pursuit, but that should not prevent us from attempting to pursue it.  

 

Our gay brothers and sisters are firmly in the same boat as everyone else and must also choose whom they will serve and who will be their first priority.  

 

Yes, the suggestion that gay people "repent" and marry someone of the opposite sex has led to disastrous consequences.  I'm glad we've moved away from that.

 

I haven't spoken of "sexual desire" just orientation which I use because I think it describes the more all encompassing circumstances... relationships not just sexual relations.

 

You say that our gay brothers & sisters are "firmly in the same boat as everyone else" but that really isn't true.  As heterosexual people we have, for the most part, the option of marrying, having children, and enjoying not just the approbation of those relationships but the sanctification of them by the Church.

 

Every time we preach or make special emphasis of "man-woman" marriage we push our gay brothers and sisters a little further outside the circle.  And when we do so without offering them any real alternative within the church.  CV75 realizes that the scripture he has cited condemn celibacy.  Since his interpretation also condemns gay unions, he is left without an offering for gay members of the church (which is why I believe he can't seem to give a direct answer to the request for a pastoral approach under his interpretation).

[KevinG]

If I choose to drink wine I am pushing myself out of the circle of those who can attend the Temple and partake of its blessings.

 

Wanting to redefine what God has called an abomination into an acceptable alternate lifestyle does not make it any less a sin.

 

Having said that - I would never advocate part of the repentance process for homosexual acts would be marry straight.  

I would never advocate Mormon/Christian laws be enforced on the general public (theocracy).

I would never advocate that homosexuality is a greater or lesser sin than my own favorite weaknesses.

[rockpond]

If I choose to drink wine I am pushing myself out of the circle of those who can attend the Temple and partake of its blessings.

 

Wanting to redefine what God has called an abomination into an acceptable alternate lifestyle does not make it any less a sin.

 

Having said that - I would never advocate part of the repentance process for homosexual acts would be marry straight.  

I would never advocate Mormon/Christian laws be enforced on the general public (theocracy).

I would never advocate that homosexuality is a greater or lesser sin than my own favorite weaknesses.

 

So you advocate celibacy for gay people?

[KevinG]

So you advocate celibacy for gay people?

 

I advocate agency for gay people.  Each individual will have to discern the best path for them back to the presence of the Father.  But that does not mean redefining sin.

 

I do advocate abstinence for alcoholics however.  If that makes me intolerant and exclusionary in the eyes of one born alcoholic, than I guess I'm a meanie.

[rockpond]

I advocate agency for gay people.  Each individual will have to discern the best path for them back to the presence of the Father.  But that does not mean redefining sin.

 

I do advocate abstinence for alcoholics however.  If that makes me intolerant and exclusionary in the eyes of one born alcoholic, than I guess I'm a meanie.

 

So, if a gay church member discerns that the best path for them back to the presence of the Father is to enter into a same sex marriage, you're okay with that?

[Gray]

Wanting to redefine what God has called an abomination into an acceptable alternate lifestyle does not make it any less a sin.

 

 

 

 

Leviticus 11:12

 

"Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you."

 

[Teancum]

If I choose to drink wine I am pushing myself out of the circle of those who can attend the Temple and partake of its blessings.

 

Wanting to redefine what God has called an abomination into an acceptable alternate lifestyle does not make it any less a sin.

 

Having said that - I would never advocate part of the repentance process for homosexual acts would be marry straight.  

I would never advocate Mormon/Christian laws be enforced on the general public (theocracy).

I would never advocate that homosexuality is a greater or lesser sin than my own favorite weaknesses.

 

Joseph Smith:

 

  "Happiness is the object and design of our existence; and will be the end thereof, if we pursue the path that leads to it; and this path is virtue, uprightness, faithfulness, holiness, and keeping all the commandments of God. But we cannot keep all the commandments without first knowing them, and we cannot expect to know all, or more than we now know unless we comply with or keep those we have already received. That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another."

"God said, "Thou shalt not kill;" at another time He said "Thou shalt utterly destroy." This is the principle on which the government of heaven is conducted—by revelation adapted to the circumstances in which the children of the kingdom are placed. Whatever God requires is right, no matter what it is, although we may not see the reason thereof till long after the events transpire. If we seek first the kingdom of God, all good things will be added. So with Solomon: first he asked wisdom, and God gave it him, and with it every desire of his heart, even things which might be considered abominable to all who understand the order of heaven only in part, but which in reality were right because God gave and sanctioned by special revelation."

 

[KevinG]

If God changes the requirement for marriage (again) I will not dispute it and sustain it.   

 

He has not yet done so in the case of same sex marriage.

[KevinG]

Leviticus 11:12

 

"Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you."

 

 

Acts 10:9 ¶On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the ^ahousetop to pray about the sixth hour:

 10 And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a ^atrance,

 11 And saw ^aheaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet ^bknit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:

 12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.

 13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.

 14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or ^aunclean.

 15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath ^acleansed, that call not thou ^bcommon.

 16 This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.

 

I expect the laws on homosexuality will be changed about the time a Prophet or Apostle has a vision of two men being sealed in the Temple and is commended to do likewise.

Edited September 9, 2015 by KevinG

[Calm]

I do think there is a conversation about what is most important in the life of a disciple of Christ - is it to serve God or to serve something else, specifically, follow their sexual desires.  What is the value of sexual identity when it comes to discipleship?  

 

Are humans incapable of suppressing their sexual desires?  It seems the answer to this is a resounding yes; humans have done this since the beginning.  However, there are some who prioritize their sexual expression as their first priority and then fit everything else into that paradigm including God.  

I agree, but let us be clear that this is not just about what we label as sexual behaviour, but we are requiring those who are unable to learn to love a woman romantically to not only live without a companion of their heart or hope for it happening in this life, we are asking them to hope for a change in their self identity they may be unable to imagine as not changing them in such a fundamental way, they won't recognize themselves. Those of us without significant aspects of our internal behaviour (thoughts, emotions, etc) that are defined as inappropriate may intellectually and even emotionally accept the idea of putting off the natural man and becoming reborn through Christ, but do we imagine that as changing who we are on something we believe is fundamental to who we are? As I think of it, my vision is I will lose superficial behaviours that have attached to me and actually obscure who I really am, I have no expectation of having to sacrifice some aspect of my personality/self that at the moment I feel is part of my core being because I can't identify anything that would keep me separate from God...but I bet there is something in there, I just don't have to live with the burden of knowing I am going to have to give that up to live with God as one...makes looking forward to the next life and working towards that goal much easier for me I suspect.

I believe that those of us who fully accept the Atonement will all be going through major internal changes as the symbolism and language is pretty dramatic, but most of us only have a vague idea of what this might mean to us personally so it likely seems much more positive than it might to someone who is close to the fully homosexual side of the sexual identity spectrum.

[Gray]

 

Acts 10:9 ¶On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the ^ahousetop to pray about the sixth hour:

 10 And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a ^atrance,

 11 And saw ^aheaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet ^bknit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:

 12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.

 13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.

 14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or ^aunclean.

 15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath ^acleansed, that call not thou ^bcommon.

 16 This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.

 

I expect the laws on homosexuality will be changed about the time a Prophet or Apostle has a vision of two men being sealed in the Temple and is commended to do likewise.

 

 

I believe the reference to eating "unclean" foods was actual a metaphor for accepting gentiles into the church. But yes, a revelation would be helpful. Currently there are none in regards to monogamous gay marriage. 

Edited September 9, 2015 by Gray

[KevinG]

I believe the reference to eating "unclean" foods was actual a metaphor for accepting gentiles into the church. But yes, a revelation would be helpful. Currently there are none in regards to monogamous gay marriage. 

 

There are plenty of scriptures, revelations, and teaching regarding homosexuality.  Just none to date that approve of it.  

[Gray]

There are plenty of scriptures, revelations, and teaching regarding homosexuality.  Just none to date that approve of it.  

 

Only a scant few scriptures/revelations, in the Bible, from sources (Paul and the anonymous author of Leviticus) we tend to selectively discount on other topics, and in context not referring to anything resembling gay marriage, but rather something more akin to prostitution and fornication (which are also forbidden among straight people). 

Edited September 9, 2015 by Gray

[jkwilliams]

There are plenty of scriptures, revelations, and teaching regarding homosexuality.  Just none to date that approve of it.  

 

I like the way you phrased that. If we believe in continuing revelation and an open canon, it's not outside the realm of possibility that God could give a revelation that accepts same-sex marriage. 

[KevinG]

Only a scant few scriptures/revelations, in the Bible, from sources (Paul and the anonymous author of Leviticus) we tend to selectively discount on other topics, and in context not referring to anything resembling gay marriage, but rather something more akin to prostitution and fornication (which are also forbidden among straight people). 

 

And coming full circle I would refer you back to the teachings of the Prophets, Seers, Revelators and Elders for us today.  (Quoted in the original post of this thread).

 

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2015/08/the-proclamation-on-the-family-transcending-the-cultural-confusion.p1?lang=eng

 

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2015/09/the-temple-and-the-natural-order-of-marriage?lang=eng

[KevinG]

I like the way you phrased that. If we believe in continuing revelation and an open canon, it's not outside the realm of possibility that God could give a revelation that accepts same-sex marriage. 

 

It is not outside the realm of possibilities.  However I don't see it as likely.  But my opinion has a lot to do with what I see as our ultimate eternal state and purpose, sometimes derided as baby factories and breeders, but nevertheless an integral part of our exaltation.

[jkwilliams]

It is not outside the realm of possibilities.  However I don't see it as likely.  But my opinion has a lot to do with what I see as our ultimate eternal state and purpose, sometimes derided as baby factories and breeders, but nevertheless an integral part of our exaltation.

 

That is really the big issue, isn't it? More than any other Christian religion, Mormon theology rests on heterosexual marriage as the key to fulfilling the measure of our creation. Homosexuality is, by nature, antithetical to LDS theology. 

[Gray]

And coming full circle I would refer you back to the teachings of the Prophets, Seers, Revelators and Elders for us today.  (Quoted in the original post of this thread).

 

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2015/08/the-proclamation-on-the-family-transcending-the-cultural-confusion.p1?lang=eng

 

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2015/09/the-temple-and-the-natural-order-of-marriage?lang=eng

 

Without a basis in direct revelation, how much weight should these have in the grand scheme of things (from the perspective of LDS doctrine)?

[KevinG]

That is really the big issue, isn't it? More than any other Christian religion, Mormon theology rests on heterosexual marriage as the key to fulfilling the measure of our creation. Homosexuality is, by nature, antithetical to LDS theology. 

 

Yes.  Having given a lot of thought to "why" God would prohibit homosexual behavior, that is the conclusion I have come to.  In fact it is easier to reconcile polygamy and polyandry in light of LDS theology than it is homosexuality.

[jkwilliams]

 In fact it is easier to reconcile polygamy and polyandry in light of LDS theology than it is homosexuality.

 

 

Unless, of course, you're a homosexual, right?

[KevinG]

Without a basis in direct revelation, how much weight should these have in the grand scheme of things (from the perspective of LDS doctrine)?

 

None.  But the proclamation on the family, and prophetic teachings on family and marriage have a solid basis in direct revelation so that isn't in question.

[KevinG]

Unless, of course, you're a homosexual, right?

 

Wrong.  

 

I never attempt to impose my beliefs on another.  I also don't attempt to change my religion to suit myself.  I would leave that religion first and find one more accommodating to my beliefs.  I've already done that once in my life.