jkwilliams Posted August 24, 2015 Author Posted August 24, 2015 Tell him he doesn't understand the idea of symbols and start with A, B, C, D........ So, my friend doesn't understand symbols, ergo I'm making fun of the church and calling you guys racist. Ugh.
Ahab Posted August 24, 2015 Posted August 24, 2015 Nobody seems to have picked up on my point that as white they represent every colorJust another nitpicky thread.I demand better content from you people!!!
jkwilliams Posted August 24, 2015 Author Posted August 24, 2015 Nobody seems to have picked up on my point that as white they represent every colorJust another nitpicky thread.I demand better content from you people!!! I'll tell my friend you disapprove of his question.
Ahab Posted August 24, 2015 Posted August 24, 2015 I'll tell my friend you disapprove of his question.Ugh. No. Just your type of response.
jkwilliams Posted August 24, 2015 Author Posted August 24, 2015 (edited) Ugh. No. Just your type of response. Forget it. Edited August 24, 2015 by jkwilliams
KevinG Posted August 24, 2015 Posted August 24, 2015 Context would have helped. I was quite stunned that even an inactive/former Saint would be asking if the "Out of Africa" theory indicated the ethnicity of Adam and Eve, given there have been numerous discussions about race and Christ, race and mankind, Adam and Eve literal or symbolic... on this site alone. I tend to be more sincere and thoughtful if I know there is a genuine questioner on the other end, and not just someone trying to stir the pot. Having people accuse me of racism in the process does not help my level of patience.
ERayR Posted August 24, 2015 Posted August 24, 2015 So, my friend doesn't understand symbols, ergo I'm making fun of the church and calling you guys racist. Ugh. Sometimes the most well intentioned actions goes off the rails. I think it was Steinbeck that wrote "The best laid schemes o' mice an' men / Gang aft agley". of Mice and Men.
jkwilliams Posted August 24, 2015 Author Posted August 24, 2015 Sometimes the most well intentioned actions goes off the rails. I think it was Steinbeck that wrote "The best laid schemes o' mice an' men / Gang aft agley". of Mice and Men. It's just discouraging that people here immediately assume I'm either mocking the church or accusing Mormons of racism.
ERayR Posted August 24, 2015 Posted August 24, 2015 It's just discouraging that people here immediately assume I'm either mocking the church or accusing Mormons of racism. John, John its not as if it hasn't happened in the past and memories are not as short as we would sometimes like. 1
mfbukowski Posted August 24, 2015 Posted August 24, 2015 God is actually a Klingon, and the "crown of glory" is actually a metaphor for the Klingon crest
jkwilliams Posted August 24, 2015 Author Posted August 24, 2015 John, John its not as if it hasn't happened in the past and memories are not as short as we would sometimes like. You're probably right. It really doesn't matter what I say, as I know how it will be taken. Sorry for bothering everyone.
KevinG Posted August 24, 2015 Posted August 24, 2015 (edited) It's just discouraging that people here immediately assume I'm either mocking the church or accusing Mormons of racism. You have taken a position as someone who critiques our beliefs and culture. In particular Joseph Smith's claims to be a prophet. That does bleed into people's assumptions about questions and comments. Just as my position as a defender of the Church can lead people to assume my answers are always those of an apologist. Also once these threads are established and the comments start flying it is extremely easy to conflate your comments with those others have made. Sometimes my responses aren't to a single person, but to a position being established by several peoples comments. Edited August 24, 2015 by KevinG 3
jkwilliams Posted August 24, 2015 Author Posted August 24, 2015 God is actually a Klingon, and the "crown of glory" is actually a metaphor for the Klingon crest I sincerely apologize for repeating my friend's question. Seems like I have burned way too many bridges to ever be taken at face value, and I am sorry for that. I do not blame you.
ERayR Posted August 24, 2015 Posted August 24, 2015 You're probably right. It really doesn't matter what I say, as I know how it will be taken. Sorry for bothering everyone. Come now feeling sorry for yourself is unbecoming and you know it is all POV anyway. 2
KevinG Posted August 24, 2015 Posted August 24, 2015 So back to the OP... Now that you have seen some responses (some to be taken seriously and other not so much) what do you think you will share with your friend? I'm still a bit hung up on the paucity of information we have on Adam and Eve, and their origins other than a strict creationist interpretation, to give a really good answer. I can raise other questions about their origins, but I'm not comfortable tying them into Africa given the amount of years (@ 75,000) it took for my ancestry to lose their melanin.
ERayR Posted August 24, 2015 Posted August 24, 2015 So back to the OP... Now that you have seen some responses (some to be taken seriously and other not so much) what do you think you will share with your friend? I'm still a bit hung up on the paucity of information we have on Adam and Eve, and their origins other than a strict creationist interpretation, to give a really good answer. I can raise other questions about their origins, but I'm not comfortable tying them into Africa given the amount of years (@ 75,000) it took for my ancestry to lose their melanin. I too would like to know what your answer will be to your friend.
HappyJackWagon Posted August 24, 2015 Posted August 24, 2015 Obviously as literal people we have no clue what they "really looked like" so any proxy will do. Does the witness couple have to look like the real Adam and Eve?? Where does this nonsense stop??If some people think these are actual videos of Adam personally and Even personally, then I don't know what to say.Better yet, let's note the race of every individual who gets ordinances in the temple and make sure we have the same race as proxies. Good idea? {sarcasm}I don't understand the anger by so many about this thread. If any color will do in the temple videos why not show some diversity? It's pretty easy to do. It seems to be a reasonable question. I know members who believe and teach that everyone in heaven will be made white and delightsome so it's not out of the realm of possibility for someone to wonder if the institutional church harbors still some of those beliefs, especially considering the history. If there aren't continuing racial prejudices in the church or lingering beliefs about interracial marriage being sin, then lets see an interracial Adam and Eve. While I believe the church has made significant progress regarding race I also believe it would be a mistake to think they totally eradicated all racism from the institutional church as well as the members. If I can pick up on that as a white man, I imagine it would be easy for a person of color to wonder as well. What is ridiculous about this thread is the anger at the question and at the desire for diversity. And Ahab, I'm sorry, but claiming white people represent all people, as if they're some kind of blank canvas, just doesn't fly. 2
mnn727 Posted August 24, 2015 Posted August 24, 2015 A significant number of church leaders taught racist assumptions for years, it is time for our church to send a message against racist assumptions, especially to reinforce what it say in the new essay. I'll leave civil rights messages for others, I look for Gods messages in the Church and Temple and agree that those desiring diversity in a Temple film probably don't belong there. Anyone looking to be offended can sure find plenty of things to be offended about in any situation. 3
HappyJackWagon Posted August 24, 2015 Posted August 24, 2015 I'll leave civil rights messages for others, I look for Gods messages in the Church and Temple and agree that those desiring diversity in a Temple film probably don't belong there. Anyone looking to be offended can sure find plenty of things to be offended about in any situation.Thanks for your blanket judgement. Nice job. We can tell all of the SP and Bishops to take a break. You've got it covered.
KevinG Posted August 24, 2015 Posted August 24, 2015 I'll leave civil rights messages for others, I look for Gods messages in the Church and Temple and agree that those desiring diversity in a Temple film probably don't belong there. Anyone looking to be offended can sure find plenty of things to be offended about in any situation. Budgets and time allowing, it might be nice for Saints in other countries to hear their own language coming out of the mouths of actors who look like them. Does anyone know if we do dubbing, closed captioning, or real language versions of the instructional films for non-English speaking countries?
ERayR Posted August 24, 2015 Posted August 24, 2015 I don't understand the anger by so many about this thread. If any color will do in the temple videos why not show some diversity? It's pretty easy to do. It seems to be a reasonable question. I know members who believe and teach that everyone in heaven will be made white and delightsome so it's not out of the realm of possibility for someone to wonder if the institutional church harbors still some of those beliefs, especially considering the history. If there aren't continuing racial prejudices in the church or lingering beliefs about interracial marriage being sin, then lets see an interracial Adam and Eve. While I believe the church has made significant progress regarding race I also believe it would be a mistake to think they totally eradicated all racism from the institutional church as well as the members. If I can pick up on that as a white man, I imagine it would be easy for a person of color to wonder as well. What is ridiculous about this thread is the anger at the question and at the desire for diversity. And Ahab, I'm sorry, but claiming white people represent all people, as if they're some kind of blank canvas, just doesn't fly. And being a clueless white man I have trouble understanding the tendency toward mole hiil mentality of some. 1
ERayR Posted August 24, 2015 Posted August 24, 2015 I'll leave civil rights messages for others, I look for Gods messages in the Church and Temple and agree that those desiring diversity in a Temple film probably don't belong there. Anyone looking to be offended can sure find plenty of things to be offended about in any situation. The best post of this entire thread IMNSHO. 1
jkwilliams Posted August 24, 2015 Author Posted August 24, 2015 I suppose the best thing I can tell my friend is that people here thought his question inappropriate. My answer yesterday was that I thought that, like me, most church members probably didn't care one way or the other. I don't think I'll tell him that some think he doesn't belong in the temple, though he might get a kick out of it. Sometimes I think he really does believe that, with enough prodding, I'll go back. Anyway, sorry again for this thread. Be well. 1
HappyJackWagon Posted August 24, 2015 Posted August 24, 2015 And being a clueless white man I have trouble understanding the tendency toward mole hiil mentality of some.That's ok. Maybe some day you'll be able to see that one man's mole hill is another man's mountain.
HappyJackWagon Posted August 24, 2015 Posted August 24, 2015 I suppose the best thing I can tell my friend is that people here thought his question inappropriate. My answer yesterday was that I thought that, like me, most church members probably didn't care one way or the other. I don't think I'll tell him that some think he doesn't belong in the temple, though he might get a kick out of it. Sometimes I think he really does believe that, with enough prodding, I'll go back. Anyway, sorry again for this thread. Be well.Threads like this tend to make me feel worse about the church. If people get so bitter about a question they admittedly don't have an answer for, then it really just reinforces your friends fears about how accepted he really is.
Recommended Posts