CA Steve Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 Does anyone have any references to how the term urim & thummim was used by LDS in the early 19th century?
ALarson Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 (edited) Does anyone have any references to how the term urim & thummim was used by LDS in the early 19th century?I've posted this on another thread, but from what I've read, the terms "Urim and Thummim" were not used to describe the tools Joseph used for translation until after 1833 when W.W. Phelps speculated that they may be the ancient U&T. If someone has quotes from Joseph Smith or any other early church members who used these terms prior to 1833, I would really love to see them. W.W. Phelps wrote the following in the January 1833 edition of The Evening and The Morning Star:The book of Mormon, as a revelation from God, possesses some advantage over the old scripture: it has not been tinctured by the wisdom of man, with here and there an Italic word to supply deficiencies.-It was translated by the gift and power of God, by an unlearned man, through the aid of a pair of Interpreters, or spectacles-(known, perhaps, in ancient days as Teraphim, or Urim and Thummim) and while it unfolds the history of the first inhabitants that settled this continent, it, at the same time, brings a oneness to scripture, like the days of the apostles; and opens and explains the prophecies, that a child may understand the meaning of many of them; and shows how the Lord will gather his saints, even the children of Israel, that have been scattered over the face of the earth, more than two thousand years, in these last days, to the place of the name of the Lord of hosts, the mount Zion. [6] It appears that the seer stone was also referred to as the "Urim and Thummim" after 1833, indicating that the name could be assigned to any device that was used for the purpose of translation.[7] http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Translation/Urim_and_Thummim The terms did not appear in the original Book of Commandments, but were added in the 1835 edition. Original Book of Commandments (prior to 1833 with no mention of the Urim and Thummim):Now, behold, I say unto you, that because you delivered up so many writings, which you had power to translate, into the hands of a wicked man, you have lost them, and also lost your gift at the same time: nevertheless, it has been restored to you again: therefore, see that you are faithful and go unto finishing the remainder of the work as you have begun. http://josephsmithpapers.org/paperSummary/revelation-spring-1829-dc-10?p=1&highlight=because%20you%20delivered%20up%20so%20many%20writings And the same verse in the 1835 edition of the Book of Commandments (the word "Urim and Thummim" have been added):Now, behold, I say unto you, that because you delivered up those writings which you had power given unto you to translate by the means of the Urim and Thummim, into the hands of a wicked man, you have lost them. https://www.lds.org/...c/10.4?lang=eng Edited August 12, 2015 by ALarson
Tacenda Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 (edited) Wonder why there's so many add ons in church history. Wish there weren't. Just as the BoM has, if it was good enough then why not in the later years? Edited August 12, 2015 by Tacenda
jkwilliams Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 Slightly off-topic, but I keep wondering why one would need to block out the light to see the writing on the seer stone. Presumably, Joseph wasn't seeing actual light but was receiving it by spiritual means, but even if he was seeing actual light, why wouldn't God make it easy for him to see in any environment? The Urim and Thummim were attached to a breastplate, and no hat was needed, apparently. Couldn't the seer stone adjust to ambient light, like my smart phone does?
ALarson Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 Another question I have asked is this one: Do those who believe that Joseph's seer stone was a Urim & Thummim believe it was a U&T when he used it for treasure seeking or that it only became one when he started using it for a righteous purpose (translating the Book of Mormon)?
bcuzbcuz Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 Slightly off-topic, but I keep wondering why one would need to block out the light to see the writing on the seer stone. Presumably, Joseph wasn't seeing actual light but was receiving it by spiritual means, but even if he was seeing actual light, why wouldn't God make it easy for him to see in any environment? The Urim and Thummim were attached to a breastplate, and no hat was needed, apparently. Couldn't the seer stone adjust to ambient light, like my smart phone does?Ambient light or whatever..... I have a great number of hats, from ten gallon cowboy hats to stovepipe top hats. In none of them is it possible to focus and read the screen of any smart phone. It is impossible to read regular text or even single letters that fill the whole screen. Seer stone or Urim and Thummin, it doesn´t matter. The focal point of sight lies beyond the bottom of the hat.
jkwilliams Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 Ambient light or whatever..... I have a great number of hats, from ten gallon cowboy hats to stovepipe top hats. In none of them is it possible to focus and read the screen of any smart phone. It is impossible to read regular text or even single letters that fill the whole screen. Seer stone or Urim and Thummin, it doesn´t matter. The focal point of sight lies beyond the bottom of the hat. Then why is it said the hat was to block out light?
bcuzbcuz Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 Then why is it said the hat was to block out light?I have no idea. Try reading the screen on your smart phone in the bottom of a hat. Try reading an ordinary sheet of paper in the bottom of a hat. A lit source is easier than an unlit source. But my point is that the focal point lies beyond the bottom of (almost) any hat.(except a tall circus hat)
Calm Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 The terms did not appear in the original Book of Commandments, but were added in the 1835 edition. Original Book of Commandments (prior to 1833 with no mention of the Urim and Thummim):May I suggest instead of using a site that violates board rules (they have temple material on their site), you link to the more authoritative and academic Joseph Smith Papers:http://josephsmithpapers.org/paperSummary/revelation-spring-1829-dc-10?p=1&highlight=because%20you%20delivered%20up%20so%20many%20writings
ALarson Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 (edited) May I suggest instead of using a site that violates board rules (they have temple material on their site), you link to the more authoritative and academic Joseph Smith Papers:http://josephsmithpapers.org/paperSummary/revelation-spring-1829-dc-10?p=1&highlight=because%20you%20delivered%20up%20so%20many%20writingsWhich site violates board rules? Lds.org or FairMormon? Or are you referring to the one page copy of the original Book of Commandments? Is there temple material there? (I don't see anything but one single page that is identical to what you posted, but I changed the reference.) Edited August 12, 2015 by ALarson
Calm Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 Wonder why there's so many add ons in church history. Wish there weren't. Just as the BoM has, if it was good enough then why not in the later years?If no one ever added information to texts, we would still be teaching the science of ancient Greece, etc.Do you not believe in continuing revelation? If information was known and not added to improve accuracy would you accuse them as hiding information? 2
CA Steve Posted August 12, 2015 Author Posted August 12, 2015 (edited) If no one ever added information to texts, we would still be teaching the science of ancient Greece, etc.Do you not believe in continuing revelation?If information was known and not added to improve accuracy would you accuse them as hiding information?Cal, Sounds like a great topic for anther thread. Maybe something along the lines of "were all changes to the revelations that Joseph received merely to improve accuracy or were there other reasons as well?" Here I am just looking for anything that has been published laying out the use of the term U&T in the early 19th century. Thanks On Edit. Yes I realize you did not start the derail so the comment is intended for all. Edited August 12, 2015 by CA Steve 2
ALarson Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 Cal, Sounds like a great topic for anther thread. Maybe something along the lines of "were all changes to the revelations that Joseph received merely to improve accuracy or were there other reasons as well?" Here I am just looking for anything that has been published laying out the use of the term U&T in the early 19th century. Thanks I would like to see this too. Especially any quotes using the terms "Urim and Thummim" to describe the seer stones or the ancient translators prior to 1833 from Joseph Smith or any early church member.
Calm Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 Or are you referring to the one page copy of the original Book of Commandments? Is there temple material there? (I don't see anything but one single page that is identical to what you posted, but I changed the reference.)The IIR that provides that page runs an antimormon site. It is not obvious from the reference you use so I figured you didn't realize what Russell had been talking about which is why I provided an alternative rather than reporting.
Calm Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 (edited) Cal,Sounds like a great topic for anther thread. Maybe something along the lines of "were all changes to the revelations that Joseph received merely to improve accuracy or were there other reasons as well?"Here I am just looking for anything that has been published laying out the use of the term U&T in the early 19th century.ThanksOn Edit. Yes I realize you did not start the derail so the comment is intended for all.. If you are interested please start it. I have a bunch of appts today so will forget, but if it is there I will see if a great presentation of part of the JST is available for posting. PS: I am not claiming changes were made solely to improve accuracy, sorry if that was the implication....Now back to the thread.I will see later if I can find any additional discussion from my FM sources on the topic. Edited August 12, 2015 by calmoriah
ALarson Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 The IIR that provides that page runs an antimormon site. It is not obvious from the reference you use so I figured you didn't realize what Russell had been talking about which is why I provided an alternative rather than reporting. Thanks, I had no idea. I just did a search for a copy of the early Book of Commandments page only and used that reference. I appreciate you doing this!!
JAHS Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 (edited) Here are some pre 1833 articles that describe the Urim and Thummin, although they don't call it such From an 1829 publication called "Golden Bible": "After having been thrice thus visited, as he states, he proceeded to the spot, and after penetrating “mother earth” a short distance, the Bible was found, together with a huge pair of spectacles! " http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/BOMP/id/176/rec/36 A letter to the editor Brattleboro Messenger (Vermont) 9, no. 43 (20 November 1830).:"The letter is dated Oct. 18th, 1830, and the extract is as follows: “You have probably heard of the Gold Bible taken from the earth by Joseph Smith, the money-digger. This he has translated from the Egyptian reformed language to English, by a pair of stone spectacles (provided by an angel) and a dark hat before his eyes.:" http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/BOMP/id/205/rec/41 Towle, Nancy. Vicissitudes Illustrated in the Experience of Nancy Towle in Europe and America, 137–47. Charleston: For the Authoress, 1832 .:"He accordingly went; and was directed by the angel to a certain spot of ground, where was deposited a “Box”— [138] and in that box contained “Plates,” which resembled gold; also, a pair of “interpreters,” (as he called them,) that resembled spectacles; by looking into which, he could read a writing engraven upon the plates, though to himself, in a tongue unknown." http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/BOMP/id/1351/rec/44 The Mormonites. 1831"The young man found in the same place two stones, with which he was enabled, by placing them over his eyes, and putting his head in a dark corner, to decipher the hieroglyphics on the plates." http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/BOMP/id/420/rec/43 Could be later on they realized that what he had which were called "interpreters" in the Book of Mormon could also be described as being a Urim and Thummim. Edited August 12, 2015 by JAHS
Recommended Posts