Alan Rock Waterman "grieves" For President Packer

[RockWaterman]

Waterman ought to be grieving over his own perilous situation and repenting in abject humility.

 

And what precisely would you have me repent of, Scott? What is my "perilous situation"?    I'd say the ones in a perilous situation are the men who cast a believer out of their midst without even a pretense of articulating his sin.

My own Stake President is unable to pinpoint any transgressions I am guilty of.  Perhaps you would be kind enough to point them out so I can get cracking?

Here's a two and a half hour interview with me that should give you plenty of help in your research:

http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2015/06/interview-with-apostate.html

[Guest]

And what precisely would you have me repent of, Scott? What is my "perilous situation"?    I'd say the ones in a perilous situation are the men who cast a believer out of their midst without even a pretense of articulating his sin.

My own Stake President is unable to pinpoint any transgressions I am guilty of.  Perhaps you would be kind enough to point them out so I can get cracking?

Here's a two and a half hour interview with me that should give you plenty of help in your research:

http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2015/06/interview-with-apostate.html

I am not even aware of who you are, but I can point out two sins. The first using the forum to call you out like this, and second taking the bait. So at least two people should at least apologize. But shame on any to use the death of an Apostle as a means of grinding an axe, and (again) using it to attack you here!

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

And what precisely would you have me repent of, Scott? What is my "perilous situation"?    I'd say the ones in a perilous situation are the men who cast a believer out of their midst without even a pretense of articulating his sin.

My own Stake President is unable to pinpoint any transgressions I am guilty of.  Perhaps you would be kind enough to point them out so I can get cracking?

Here's a two and a half hour interview with me that should give you plenty of help in your research:

http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2015/06/interview-with-apostate.html

Well, the nice thing is that we will never get the other side of the story. So we get to just take your word that your SP could not identify any sins. You were just ex'ed for asking tough questions right?

[Scott Lloyd]

And what precisely would you have me repent of, Scott? What is my "perilous situation"? I'd say the ones in a perilous situation are the men who cast a believer out of their midst without even a pretense of articulating his sin.

My own Stake President is unable to pinpoint any transgressions I am guilty of. Perhaps you would be kind enough to point them out so I can get cracking?

Here's a two and a half hour interview with me that should give you plenty of help in your research:

http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2015/06/interview-with-apostate.html

Given the fact that you've quite obviously been in public rebellion against the called and anointed leadership of the Church for some time now, I'm inclined to believe the decision of the disciplinary council was the correct one.

[Duncan]

Given the fact that you've quite obviously been in public rebellion against the called and anointed leadership of the Church for some time now, I'm inclined to believe the decision of the disciplinary council was the correct one.

 

 

exactley, see Doctrine and Covenants 90:1-5. Specifically verse 5 "And all they who receive the oracles of God, let them beware how they hold them lest they are accounted as a light thing, and are brought under condemnation thereby, and stumble and fall when the storms descend, and the winds blow, and the rains descend, and beat upon their house."

 

the First Presidency receives the oracles for the whole Church as per Doctrine and Covenants 124:126, not me or anyone else. 

[RockWaterman]

Given the fact that you've quite obviously been in public rebellion against the called and anointed leadership of the Church for some time now, I'm inclined to believe the decision of the disciplinary council was the correct one.

Would you like to specify some of those acts of rebellion?  And what "anointed leadership"?

Who anointed Brigham Young a prophet, seer, and revelator?  What date did the ordination take place?

Young was elected to the office of president of the church by voice of the people.  He denied the gifts of a prophet, maintaining that he was there as a placeholder.  So if Brigham Young was never anointed by God, what authority do those who followed him claim?

But never mind all that. I'm still curious what you consider acts of rebellion.  If you can find something I have claimed as doctrinal that can be shown to be undoctrinal, I will go in and correct my error.  That is the offer I made to both my bishop and my stake president, and both gave the same response: I'm not interested in reading your blog.

I testified of Christ, of the Book of Mormon, and of Joseph Smith's divine mission and the truthfulness of the revelations he received.  None of that would have gotten me kicked out of the church in Nauvoo. So what has changed?  Is it me, or is it something else that's amiss?

[Duncan]

Would you like to specify some of those acts of rebellion?  And what "anointed leadership"?

Who anointed Brigham Young a prophet, seer, and revelator?  What date did the ordination take place?

Young was elected to the office of president of the church by voice of the people.  He denied the gifts of a prophet, maintaining that he was there as a placeholder.  So if Brigham Young was never anointed by God, what authority do those who followed him claim?

But never mind all that. I'm still curious what you consider acts of rebellion.  If you can find something I have claimed as doctrinal that can be shown to be undoctrinal, I will go in and correct my error.  That is the offer I made to both my bishop and my stake president, and both gave the same response: I'm not interested in reading your blog.

I testified of Christ, of the Book of Mormon, and of Joseph Smith's divine mission and the truthfulness of the revelations he received.  None of that would have gotten me kicked out of the church in Nauvoo. So what has changed?  Is it me, or is it something else that's amiss?

 

he was sustained on Dec 5, 1847 by the Twelve and three weeks later on the 27th sustained by the assembled saints. The new First pres. was later sustained by the saints in Salt Lake. He even said a month later, " The spirit of the Lord at this time rested upon the people in  a powerful manner, in so much that the saints' hearts were filled with joy unspeakable; every power of the mind and nerve of their body awakened" B.H. Roberts, CHC, 3:316. Bathsheba Smith who was the wife of Elder George A. Smith was a witness to that and she wrote, "I slept in the cabin that night and the sweet influence of the Holy Spirit which had been enjoyed in the council still remained" (Autobiography of Bathsheba W. Smith, p. 19) in 1849 Pres. Young even said about the time that Joseph and Hyrum were killed, "Previous to attending to the ordinations I want to lay certain principles before the Brethren concerning our present situation. In the first place, say here what never said since Joseph's death till now. I was in Bro. Beamants house in Petersborough. They received letters from Nauvoo giving account of mob, death &c. When we got that letter Orson Pratt and I were there and read the letter. I felt then as I never felt in my life. All disappointments, losses, and crosses never bring a tear. Bringing it to mind brings tears. My head felt so distressed I felt as though it would crack. It come to me Joseph and Hyrum are gone, is the Priesthood taken from the Earth. I had forgot myself. The organization of the Kingdom and Church passed before me. It came like a clap. It come to me like Revelation-the keys of the Kingdom are here and was satisfied it was all right. No man ever loved another man more than I did Joseph. When I came to Nauvoo I knew by visions of the Spirit from Twelve there would be a First Presidency I knew who would be there as well as now. Joseph told the story himself." Quoted in (My Servant Brigham: Portrait of a Prophet) Do you have references for him denying gifts of a prophet and being  a placeholder?

 

sounds like it's you who changed but thankfully you, me everyone can repent and change

Edited July 16, 2015 by Duncan

[teddyaware]

Would you like to specify some of those acts of rebellion?  And what "anointed leadership"?

Who anointed Brigham Young a prophet, seer, and revelator?  What date did the ordination take place?

Young was elected to the office of president of the church by voice of the people.  He denied the gifts of a prophet, maintaining that he was there as a placeholder.  So if Brigham Young was never anointed by God, what authority do those who followed him claim?

But never mind all that. I'm still curious what you consider acts of rebellion.  If you can find something I have claimed as doctrinal that can be shown to be undoctrinal, I will go in and correct my error.  That is the offer I made to both my bishop and my stake president, and both gave the same response: I'm not interested in reading your blog.

I testified of Christ, of the Book of Mormon, and of Joseph Smith's divine mission and the truthfulness of the revelations he received.  None of that would have gotten me kicked out of the church in Nauvoo. So what has changed?  Is it me, or is it something else that's amiss?

 

If not Brigham Young, whom do you believe was the rightful successor to the prophet Joseph Smith?

[Duncan]

If not Brigham Young, whom do you believe was the rightful successor to the prophet Joseph Smith?

 

and why he doesn't join their church or is surprised, upset? that he got exed out of this one, if it's not the true church

[Avatar4321]

“I will give you one of the Keys of the mysteries of the Kingdom. It is an eternal principle, that has existed with God from all eternity: That man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way, while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly, that that man is in the high road to apostasy; and if he does not repent, will apostatize, as God lives.” - Joseph Smith Jr.

If you believe Joseph is a prophet why ignore this counsel?

[Avatar4321]

Btw welcome to the site. We are glad to have you.

[bluebell]

I testified of Christ, of the Book of Mormon, and of Joseph Smith's divine mission and the truthfulness of the revelations he received. None of that would have gotten me kicked out of the church in Nauvoo.

None of that got you kicked out of the church where you live either.

[drums12]

I'd like to just clarify a couple of things. 

 

First, I regret if my opening post came across as condemning of you, Brother Waterman.  I should not have put "grieving" in the thread title in quotation marks.  I don't doubt your sincerity, or that you truly grieve for President Packer as you explain in your post.  I disagree with what you seem to grieve for in relation to President Packer, but I may not have articulated that well enough.

 

Secondly,  my post was also a more general response to a lot of the reaction to his death in certain circles (some former LDS seem to gleefully dance on his grave, as it were).  You, as I mentioned, were not one of these.  It wasn't intended to bait you as someone has suggested.  You and I would likely disagree on several things, but I harbor no ill will toward you. 

 

Finally, I believe the Priesthood authority has continued from Joseph Smith to President Monson.  Joseph told the Twelve that he had conferred the keys upon them and they must do their duty or be damned.  Perhaps you don't believe that account (by Wilford Woodruff if I recall correctly).  I don't know all the history perfectly.  I do believe that I have felt the Priesthood work through me in my life, and this is evidence to me at least of the succession from Joseph Smith.

 

This thread has turned personal.