Examples Of Religious Freedom Being Trampled Or Threatened

[Scott Lloyd]

Because we're repeatedly getting challenges on this board now to show "specific, concrete examples" of how religious freedom is being threatened or trampled upon (I've answered such challenges on at least two occasions now), as though such examples did not exist, I have started this thread to provide such examples when I encounter them. This, of course, is meant to be an on-going and cumulative thread.

 

Here's one such example that I ran across today. It seems that Churches must take out insurance against ruinous lawsuits, and there is now evidence that insurance companies will refuse to cover churches if they get sued for refusal to perform same-sex "marriages."

 

Churches, like virtually every functioning corporation, protect against liability risks and the potentially ruinous costs of litigation through liability insurance. With same-sex marriage now recognized as a constitutional right — and with news of Oregon’s Bureau of Labor and Industries awarding a lesbian couple $135,000 in damages for “emotional, mental and physical suffering” after a Christian bakery refused to bake their wedding cake — pastors are reaching out to insurance companies to make sure they’re covered. And at least one insurer has responded with a preemptory denial: no coverage if a church is sued for refusing to perform a same-sex wedding.

Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/420928/churches-gay-marriage-insurance?tsrvqUZ2WLkiLuwx.01

 

 

Edited July 10, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Bob Crockett]

Sorry, yours is a silly post.   The insurance company merely said that it does provide coverage for miscellaneous defense costs.   Similarly, insurance companies in standard errors and omissions policies don't cover breach of contract or suits by public agencies for regulatory violations. 

 

Anything can be insured.  If a church goes to Lloyds and asks for coverage, and is willing to pay for it, it will get insurance on virtually any topic except those which are contrary to public policy, like intentional torts. 

 

I try to follow this subject closely as I have published in the area.  This is a crazy article to ignore.  Sorry, no disrespect intended.

Edited July 10, 2015 by Bob Crockett

[Scott Lloyd]

Sorry, yours is a silly post.   The insurance company merely said that it does provide coverage for miscellaneous defense costs.   Similarly, insurance companies in standard errors and omissions policies don't cover breach of contract or suits by public agencies for regulatory violations. 

 

Anything can be insured.  If a church goes to Lloyds and asks for coverage, and is willing to pay for it, it will get insurance on virtually any topic except those which are contrary to public policy, like intentional torts. 

 

I try to follow this subject closely as I have published in the area.  This is a crazy article to ignore.  Sorry, no disrespect intended.

Well, I don't have the expertise to argue the legal issues. But the specter of churches unable to get insurance because they might be targeted by gay advocacy groups has me worried. It's too much power in the hands of a relatively small but loud segment of society.

Edited July 10, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Tsuzuki]

Having an order for your extermination is a good example of religious freedom being trampled on. I don't see how yours comes close to that.

[Scott Lloyd]

Having an order for your extermination is a good example of religious freedom being trampled on. I don't see how yours comes close to that.

Never said that it did. Never even implied it.

[Kenngo1969]

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/elder-oaks-religious-freedom-Chapman-University

[Bobbieaware]

Sorry, yours is a silly post. The insurance company merely said that it does provide coverage for miscellaneous defense costs. Similarly, insurance companies in standard errors and omissions policies don't cover breach of contract or suits by public agencies for regulatory violations.

Anything can be insured. If a church goes to Lloyds and asks for coverage, and is willing to pay for it, it will get insurance on virtually any topic except those which are contrary to public policy, like intentional torts.

I try to follow this subject closely as I have published in the area. This is a crazy article to ignore. Sorry, no disrespect intended.

Whether having to deal with conscious malicious attempts to abridge religious freedom, or being forced by new societal realities to have to clear heretofore nonexistent legal and financial hurdles in order to get some protection against potential future attacks, the net effect is the same. Whether these new unignorable realities are intentionally or unintentionally set in place, for many life is becoming more complicated, expensive and worrisome.

Edited July 10, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[tonie]

David French of the Mational Review appears to me a propogandist.

I will have to see if he did a follow-up to Gordon College accredidation being upheld by the accreding body.

Citing the National Review, isnt very effective.

A few of the examples from mormonnewsroom religious freedom articles would be a good start.

[carbon dioxide]

Nobody is going to be forced to perform a gay marriage if they are not part of the government.  Though the law now gives gays the right to marry, that does not mean they have the right to be married by a specific person or a specific private entity.  Gays have a right to go to a courthouse to get married but not a church or by your neighbor that might be a bishop. 

[David13]

Is that a promise?

dc

[Scott Lloyd]

David French of the Mational Review appears to me a propogandist.

I will have to see if he did a follow-up to Gordon College accredidation being upheld by the accreding body.

Citing the National Review, isnt very effective.

A few of the examples from mormonnewsroom religious freedom articles would be a good start.

Ad hominem attack.

[changed]

I posted this on the other thread too - but I think this article does a good job of summarizing everything:

 

http://lds.net/blog/buzz/how-same-sex-marriage-laws-will-affect-you/

[Scott Lloyd]

Here's another specific instance of a threat, that religious schools such as BYU may be in danger of losing accreditation because they won't tow the line on political correctness.

 

By the way, contributions from others are welcome. I intend to crowd-source this compilation of threats to religious freedom.

Edited July 10, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

I posted this on the other thread too - but I think this article does a good job of summarizing everything:

 

http://lds.net/blog/buzz/how-same-sex-marriage-laws-will-affect-you/

I especially like this excerpt from that blog:

 

Conversations about same-sex marriage have dominated social media over the last week. Those who supported the losing side of the verdict have faced taunting, bullying and worse, sometimes by their fellow Latter-day Saints.

Retaliation may grow stronger. Brendan Eich who supported traditional marriage laws in California was blackballed by the tech community until he was forced to resign from his position as CEO of Mozilla, a company he helped found. Other Latter-day Saints similarly lost their jobs.

While free speech is protected by the US constitution, there is nothing protecting Latter-day Saints from the personal responses of others.

This aggression comes from those who feel that disagreeing with same-sex marriage attacked them personally. Maintaining kindness and respect to everyone should help them see this is not the case. We certainly must be careful that we don’t respond with similar taunting or bullying.

That may not be enough, however; Eich by all accounts was exceedingly fair to employees of all sexual orientations.

If the retaliation you face is limited to Facebook, you can probably blow it off. If it is more substantial, remember that facing persecution for standing up for truth while the law turns a blind eye is not new to disciples of Christ, or Latter-day Saints.

Some Latter-day Saints have taken a political position on gay marriage that is at odds with the Church’s position. If you are among that group and have used the recent victory to taunt or belittle members who chose to hold the Church’s position, you should reconsider your actions.

 

[sunstoned]

You need to let this go Scott. No one is going to take away your freedom or the freedom of the church to treat people anyway they want, as long as it is within the law.  However,  people are becoming more accepting and inclusive, and organizations that remain exclusionary will be relegated to the dustbin of history.

Edited July 10, 2015 by sunstoned

[TheSkepticChristian]

Why worry? Jesus said, "all these things will be added to you" Matthew 6:33

All is well, your religious rights will never go away. You think God will allow governments to destroy religion?

 

Just live and let live 

 

 

 BYU may be in danger of losing accreditation because they won't tow the line on political correctness.

 

Jesus commanded his followers to help the poor. He didn't say anything about university accreditation, fighting gay rights, or fighting for religious freedom to discriminate.  Did Jesus fight the Roman empire for religious freedom to discriminate?  

 

 

threats to religious freedom.

 

What do the top 10 most peaceful countries on Earth have in common? 

1. Very peaceful 

2. Low poverty rate 

3. protect gay rights 

 

USA ranks 94 in the 2015 Global Peace Index

 

 

You need to let this go Scott. No one is going to take away your freedom or the freedom of the church to treat people anyway they want, as long as it is within the law.  However,  people are becoming more accepting and inclusive, and organizations that remain exclusionary will be relegated to the dustbin of history.

 

but to Scott gay marriage is the worst problem ever 

 

 

Edited July 10, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian

[thatjimguy]

"While there are — so far — no meaningful judicial precedents that would permit such dramatic interference with churches’ core First Amendment rights, lawsuits challenging church liberties are inevitable." 
 

 

As soon as I read this, I knew it was all hype from there.
 

So nothing exists that could change a church's first amendment rights, but we'll keep talking as if these lawsuits have a chance anyway to scare the heck out of you.

 

[thatjimguy]

I also believe that many of these cases that are winning are winning because people are on the take as well. It has nothing to do with right or wrong as much as it is scammy people playing "gotcha" with nit-picky litigation.

[thatjimguy]

Here's another specific instance of a threat, that religious schools such as BYU may be in danger of losing accreditation because they won't tow the line on political correctness.

 

By the way, contributions from others are welcome. I intend to crowd-source this compilation of threats to religious freedom.

 

I want to give the kid a break, because he is a economics student, not a journalist...

 

 

 

“As a result, the Canadian decision on TWU is not necessarily a ten-year warning bell for BYU. But there are other facts to consider”

 

— If it’s not a warning bell, why do you make it the subject of the blog? Sounds like you are ringing that bell pretty loudly to me.

 

“The general lack of respect for religious viewpoints is quickly devolving into social and political intolerance for religious people and institutions.”

 

— I agree with this quote, but this talk had nothing to do with SSM, just religious freedom in general. If anything, couldn’t this quote be used to prove that the right for SSM had to be (whether we agree with it or not) because we have to respect others religious viewpoints, like the Episcopalians?

 

“Threats to religious tax exemptions could be next in line.”

 

— People have been going after the church’s tax exempt status since it’s involvement with Prop 8. This is nothing new.

 

“It’s worth acknowledging that, for more skeptical listeners, this language can come across hyperbolic.”

 

— I don’t think one has to be skeptical to notice that. Years of watching TV pundits can train most people to catch it.

 

I think you mean well and I’m on your side actually, but I’d rather catch this and point them out before our adversaries do.

[Bobbieaware]

Why worry? Jesus said, "all these things will be added to you" Matthew 6:33

All is well, your religious rights will never go away. You think God will allow governments to destroy religion?

 

Just live and let live 

 

 

BYU may be in danger of losing accreditation because they won't tow the line on political correctness.

 

Jesus commanded his followers to help the poor. He didn't say anything about university accreditation, fighting gay rights, or fighting for religious freedom to discriminate.  Did Jesus fight the Roman empire for religious freedom to discriminate?  

 

 

threats to religious freedom.

 

What do the top 10 most peaceful countries on Earth have in common? 

1. Very peaceful 

2. Low poverty rate 

3. protect gay rights 

 

USA ranks 94 in the 2015 Global Peace Index

 

 

You need to let this go Scott. No one is going to take away your freedom or the freedom of the church to treat people anyway they want, as long as it is within the law.  However,  people are becoming more accepting and inclusive, and organizations that remain exclusionary will be relegated to the dustbin of history.

 

but to Scott gay marriage is the worst problem ever 

 

 

How naive and pollyannaish! Have you seen what''s going on in the Middle East?!? The problem with progressives is that they don't seem to believe there's a real devil. And if they do believe there's a real devil, they don't think he's nearly as cunning and evil as he actually is.

[carbon dioxide]

How naive and pollyannaish! Have you seen what''s going on in the Middle East?!? The problem with progressives is that they don't seem to believe there's a real devil. And if they do believe there's a real devil, they don't think he's nearly as cunning and evil as he actually is.

 

The same devil who celebrates war, oppression, hunger, ect that the progressive campaign about is the same devil that supports things like gay marriage.  The devil enjoys all kinds of wickedness. 

[carbon dioxide]

 

The skepticChristian

 

but to Scott gay marriage is the worst problem ever 

 

 

 

Gay marriage is a worse problem on the long term. You see those starving kids.  It is a terrible thing but if they die they have a great chance of making the celestial kingdom.  Those in gay marriage have zero chance.  The only tragedy to God is not hunger or sickness, or death as all of those are temporary but sin.  The consequence of sin can be eternal.  So though we might be called to fight things like hunger, to  focus on that and not the bigger issues like sin is straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel.

Edited July 10, 2015 by carbon dioxide

[Daniel2]

Gay marriage is a worse problem on the long term. You see those starving kids. It is a terrible thing but if they die they have a great chance of making the celestial kingdom. Those in gay marriage have zero chance. The only tragedy to God is not hunger or sickness, or death as all of those are temporary but sin. The consequence of sin can be eternal. So though we might be called to fight things like hunger, to focus on that and not the bigger issues like sin is straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel.

Quoted for posterity to show some LDS' values at their finest.

Edited July 10, 2015 by Daniel2

[TheSkepticChristian]

Gay marriage is a worse problem on the long term. You see those starving kids.  It is a terrible thing but if they die they have a great chance of making the celestial kingdom.  Those in gay marriage have zero chance.  

 

So you are more worried about gay marriage? Is that why you mix religion with politics? Please read what I said in post 16. 

What did Jesus teach?

 

 

 Those in gay marriage have zero chance. 

 

and they are less likely to listen to a Mormon like you. People like you make them furious. 

 

The only tragedy to God is not hunger or sickness, or death as all of those are temporary but sin.

 

Hunger and sickness are not a decision, gay marriage is.  

Edited July 10, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian

[Gray]

How naive and pollyannaish! Have you seen what''s going on in the Middle East?!? The problem with progressives is that they don't seem to believe there's a real devil. And if they do believe there's a real devil, they don't think he's nearly as cunning and evil as he actually is.

 

 

The problem with fundamentalists is they're too quick to see the devil in their neighbor.