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Examples Of Religious Freedom Being Trampled Or Threatened

Scott Lloyd

By Scott Lloyd
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Bob Crockett Grand Master

Bob Crockett

Posted
Posted (edited)

 

City threatens to arrest ministers who refuse to perform same-sex weddings
 
This involves a for-profit business, not a church.  
 
Gay couple files complaint for refusal of wedding
 
This is not a lawsuit.   This is a complaint to the United Methodist Church's governing council.
 
 
Methodist Church Pastor Sued for Refusing to Conduct Gay Wedding
 
This is not a lawsuit.   This is a complaint to the United Methodist Church's governing council.
 
'I am still not getting what I want': Gay couple suing church
 
This involves UK law, where there is no First Amendment.  Incidentally, the LDS Church pays property taxes on its temple there.
 
COUPLE SUING TO FORCE CHURCH TO PERFORM GAY MARRIAGE
 
This looks like a duplicate of your UK story, above.
 

 

This looks like a duplicate of your UK story, above.

 

I thought the LGBT spokes people assured us this type of stuff would never happen...  :nea:

 

 

Such a fundamentally misleading post.  And I'm a big proponent of religious liberty and opposed, on religious grounds, to gay marriage.

Edited by Bob Crockett
3
Gray Grand Master

Gray

Posted
Posted

 

 

"The lawsuit came the same week that the city of Houston issued subpoenas demanding that five Christian pastors turn over sermons dealing with homosexuality and gender identity."

 

The city wanting to dictate what can be preached about on Sunday.

 

Continuing...

 

"The lawsuit came the same week that the city of Houston issued subpoenas demanding that five Christian pastors turn over sermons dealing with homosexuality and gender identity.

What in heaven’s name is happening to our country, folks? I was under the assumption that churches and pastors would not be impacted by same-sex marriage.

“The other side insisted this would never happen – that pastors would not have to perform same-sex marriages,” Tedesco told me. “The reality is – it’s already happening.”

Tony Perkins, president of the Family Research Council, told me it’s “open season on Americans who refuse to bow to the government’s redefinition of marriage.”

“Americans are witnesses to the reality that redefining marriage is less about the marriage altar and more about fundamentally altering the freedoms of the other 98 percent of Americans,” Perkins said.

Why should evangelical Christian ministers be forced to perform and celebrate any marriage that conflicts with their beliefs?

“This is the brave new world of government-sanctioned same-sex unions – where Americans are forced to celebrate these unions regardless of their religious beliefs,” Perkins told me.

As I write in my new book, “God Less America,” we are living in a day when those who support traditional marriage are coming under fierce attack. 

The incidents in Houston and now in Coeur d’Alene are the just the latest examples of a disturbing trend in the culture war – direct attacks on clergy.

“Government officials are making clear they will use their government power to punish those who oppose the advances of homosexual activists,” Perkins said.

I’m afraid Mr. Perkins is absolutely right.

No one should be discriminated against but have you noticed that any time a city passes a “nondiscrimination” ordinance, it’s the Christians who wind up being discriminated against?"

 

 

The city overreached, and that was acknowledged. They backed down, yes? 

1
Zakuska Grand Master

Zakuska

Posted
Posted (edited)

 

 

City threatens to arrest ministers who refuse to perform same-sex weddings
 
This involves a for-profit business, not a church.  
 
Gay couple files complaint for refusal of wedding
 
This is not a lawsuit.   This is a complaint to the United Methodist Church's governing council.
 
 
Methodist Church Pastor Sued for Refusing to Conduct Gay Wedding
 
This is not a lawsuit.   This is a complaint to the United Methodist Church's governing council.
 
'I am still not getting what I want': Gay couple suing church
 
This involves UK law, where there is no First Amendment.  Incidentally, the LDS Church pays property taxes on its temple there.
 
COUPLE SUING TO FORCE CHURCH TO PERFORM GAY MARRIAGE
 
This looks like a duplicate of your UK story, above.
 

 

This looks like a duplicate of your UK story, above.

 

I thought the LGBT spokes people assured us this type of stuff would never happen...  :nea:

 

 

Such a fundamentally misleading post.  And I'm a big proponent of religious liberty and opposed, on religious grounds, to gay marriage.

 

If its a fundamental misreading... as you claim... why is the City issuing "subpoenas demanding that five Christian pastors turn over sermons dealing with homosexuality and gender identity." ?

Edited by Zakuska
Bob Crockett Grand Master

Bob Crockett

Posted
Posted (edited)

If its a fundamental misreading... as you claim... why is the City issuing "subpoenas demanding that five Christian pastors turn over sermons dealing with homosexuality and gender identity." ?

 

 

 

Your post does not cite to that story, but to a story that references the Houston event.  The Houston subpoenas were apparently related to tax exemption status, which is not a First Amendment issue.  Why on earth governments provide tax exemptions to religion in the first place is beyond my libertarian comprehension, as it appears to be an unconstitutional "establishment," but tax exemptions have been often repealed for religious groups.

 

The repeal of a tax exemption says nothing of a minister's free speech.

 

But, more fundamentally, your post was so misleading as to be very deceptive to somebody who might be gullible enough.  How can you possible characterize a complaint to a religion's governing board a "lawsuit?"

 

 

Edited by Bob Crockett
4
Scott Lloyd Grand Master

Scott Lloyd

Posted
  • Author
Posted (edited)

This has been brought up before on this board, but I include it on this thread as part of a compilation of examples of threats to religious liberty. The thing about this despotic ruling by an administrative law judge (not a conventional court) is that it attacks not just one but two First Amendment righs: freedom of speech as well as freedom of religion.

Edited by Scott Lloyd
CV75 Grand Master

CV75

Posted
Posted

This has been brought up before on this board, but I include it on this thread as part of a compilation of examples of threats to religious liberty. The thing about this despotic ruling by an administrative law judge (not a conventional court) is that is attacks not just one but two First Amendment righs: freedom of speech as well as freedom of religion.

Good example -- the insistence that this is an issue of discrimnation against sexual orientation and not about excercising the right to refuse to tacitly condone one's religiously prohibited and offensive practice is a lie of the worst kind(s)!

1
Zakuska Grand Master

Zakuska

Posted
Posted (edited)
 

 

If its a fundamental misreading... as you claim... why is the City issuing "subpoenas demanding that five Christian pastors turn over sermons dealing with homosexuality and gender identity." ?

 

 

 

Your post does not cite to that story, but to a story that references the Houston event.  The Houston subpoenas were apparently related to tax exemption status, which is not a First Amendment issue.  Why on earth governments provide tax exemptions to religion in the first place is beyond my libertarian comprehension, as it appears to be an unconstitutional "establishment," but tax exemptions have been often repealed for religious groups.

 

The repeal of a tax exemption says nothing of a minister's free speech.

 

But, more fundamentally, your post was so misleading as to be very deceptive to somebody who might be gullible enough.  How can you possible characterize a complaint to a religion's governing board a "lawsuit?"

 

 

 

 

First of all.... Our fire wall blocks most religiously/politicaly based blogs etc. so I was unable to read more than just the headline and link. 

 

Secondly... I never claimed it was a "lawsuit".  I simply linked to relevant stories and listed their Headlines (as given by Google) and their links, and asked a simple question.

Edited by Zakuska
Scott Lloyd Grand Master

Scott Lloyd

Posted
  • Author
Posted (edited)

 

 

 

"The lawsuit came the same week that the city of Houston issued subpoenas demanding that five Christian pastors turn over sermons dealing with homosexuality and gender identity."

 

The city wanting to dictate what can be preached about on Sunday.

 

Continuing...

 

"The lawsuit came the same week that the city of Houston issued subpoenas demanding that five Christian pastors turn over sermons dealing with homosexuality and gender identity.

What in heaven’s name is happening to our country, folks? I was under the assumption that churches and pastors would not be impacted by same-sex marriage.

“The other side insisted this would never happen – that pastors would not have to perform same-sex marriages,” Tedesco told me. “The reality is – it’s already happening.”

Tony Perkins, president of the Family Research Council, told me it’s “open season on Americans who refuse to bow to the government’s redefinition of marriage.”

“Americans are witnesses to the reality that redefining marriage is less about the marriage altar and more about fundamentally altering the freedoms of the other 98 percent of Americans,” Perkins said.

Why should evangelical Christian ministers be forced to perform and celebrate any marriage that conflicts with their beliefs?

“This is the brave new world of government-sanctioned same-sex unions – where Americans are forced to celebrate these unions regardless of their religious beliefs,” Perkins told me.

As I write in my new book, “God Less America,” we are living in a day when those who support traditional marriage are coming under fierce attack. 

The incidents in Houston and now in Coeur d’Alene are the just the latest examples of a disturbing trend in the culture war – direct attacks on clergy.

“Government officials are making clear they will use their government power to punish those who oppose the advances of homosexual activists,” Perkins said.

I’m afraid Mr. Perkins is absolutely right.

No one should be discriminated against but have you noticed that any time a city passes a “nondiscrimination” ordinance, it’s the Christians who wind up being discriminated against?"

 

 

The city overreached, and that was acknowledged. They backed down, yes? 

 

Why did the city "overreach" in the first place? Isn't this the United States of America, where freedom of speech is constitutionally guaranteed?

 

According to one report I read, the mayor, in backing down, said she did so because the issue had become "a distraction" (in other words, she didn't like the bad publicity she was getting), not because of the action having been a gross abuse of power, which it most definitely was.

Edited by Scott Lloyd
tonie Experienced

tonie

Posted
Posted (edited)

City threatens to arrest ministers who refuse to perform same-sex weddings

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2014/10/20/city-threatens-to-arrest-ministers-who-refuse-to-perform-same-sex-weddings.html

Gay couple files complaint for refusal of wedding

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CDQQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.umc.org%2Fnews-and-media%2Fgay-couple-files-complaint-for-refusal-of-wedding&ei=ggqgVbWgJJS6ogS9v7yABw&usg=AFQjCNECJoucjrbR-mnoURR_Q03kOH2IoQ&sig2=svYPFCxqt3Tdck8oB2tAog&bvm=bv.96952980,d.cGU

Methodist Church Pastor Sued for Refusing to Conduct Gay Wedding

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=9&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CFoQFjAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thechristianmail.com%2F2014%2F11%2Fmethodist-church-pastor-sued-for-refusing-to-conduct-gay-marriage%2F&ei=ggqgVbWgJJS6ogS9v7yABw&usg=AFQjCNFzp7QIFJ_EGzPb4BqkRQ3V3tptbw&sig2=xXLYcSAaRl50Xq2cppiuPA&bvm=bv.96952980,d.cGU

'I am still not getting what I want': Gay couple suing church

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=11&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CB8QFjAAOAo&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.lifesitenews.com%2Fnews%2Fi-am-still-not-getting-what-i-want-gay-couple-suing-church-for-refusing-wed&ei=SAugVZW6BdCqogTywYOoBg&usg=AFQjCNG1yyLPgBNZJlxBzRJt6NJovKAZcQ&sig2=-n-cm-LuA6dD5Z9Clm0G2w&bvm=bv.96952980,d.cGU

COUPLE SUING TO FORCE CHURCH TO PERFORM GAY MARRIAGE

http://illinoisreview.typepad.com/illinoisreview/2013/08/gay-couple-to-sue-church-over-gay-marriage-opt-out.html

Gay Couple Sues Church That Won't Host Same-Sex Wedding

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=24&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CDYQFjADOBQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.christianheadlines.com%2Fblog%2Fgay-couple-sues-church-that-won-t-host-same-sex-weddings.html&ei=ugygVZbbBpCCoQStvbyYBg&usg=AFQjCNFypB5Ng6K68qwQqJDy_h-Q1BCvNw&sig2=1hRSh9534d489r_EfjOgVA&bvm=bv.96952980,d.cGU

I thought the LGBT spokes people assured us this type of stuff would never happen... :nea:

Did you read the articles?

The first link, the issue was settled, I believe within two weeks, o the controversy arising.

The next two links involve "church law", so it is wholely an internal matter for that Church.

The last THREE links are about the UK - so pretty much not relevant to the United States. You should up on same sex martiage in the UK and how it affects the Churh of England. You should also read about parliments direct control/involvement with the Church Of England

could you elaborate on what the articles represent? And you might want to look into the details of the case from Idaho before you pronounce oppression.

Edited by tonie
2
Scott Lloyd Grand Master

Scott Lloyd

Posted
  • Author
Posted

 

 

"While there are — so far — no meaningful judicial precedents that would permit such dramatic interference with churches’ core First Amendment rights, lawsuits challenging church liberties are inevitable." 

 

 

As soon as I read this, I knew it was all hype from there.

 

So nothing exists that could change a church's first amendment rights, but we'll keep talking as if these lawsuits have a chance anyway to scare the heck out of you.

 

 

 

Such are the certain articles from National Review. 

 

More ad hominem attack.

SmileyMcGee Proficient

SmileyMcGee

Posted
Posted

Smiley McGee:

In response to your post # 62:

If you consider offering similar academic degrees as secular schools to be a religious matter then yes, i disagree with you. If you want to compare secular education in general to a shopping mall that's your problem. I don't believe that people should get special treatment because they are participating in secular activities for religious reasons. That would be privilege, not freedom.

Out of curiosity, do you consider church sponsored hospitals to be secular activities? What about disaster relief? What about a church run food bank? What about raising money to help starving children? What about helping the homeless? Outside of what occurs in the privacy of one’s own home or within the walls of a church, is there anything a church might do without being considered to be engaging in a secular activity?

No. And that's fine. They just have to play by the same rules as everyone else. Why is that so hard to understand? You don't get to break the law because you think your belief is right and others are wrong.. Your beliefs are no more valid any other's. if a church wants to participate in an arena outside of its walls, it doesn't get to dictate the rules. It must follow any rules in place. i don't see how you think that is an attack on any freedom that you have.

tonie Experienced

tonie

Posted
Posted (edited)

Last year, a high school valedictorian was forbidden by a school district in California to mention God or religion in his high school graduation speech. He defied the order and did so anyway. Good for him!

SCOTUS has long ruled on what speech schools can restrict; not sure if it is Tinker but that is one of the free speech issues and schools.

Should we talk about the school in alaska which stripped a stundent of a sign which read "bong hits for Jesus"?

Edited by tonie
1
Gray Grand Master

Gray

Posted
Posted

 

 

 

 

"The lawsuit came the same week that the city of Houston issued subpoenas demanding that five Christian pastors turn over sermons dealing with homosexuality and gender identity."

 

The city wanting to dictate what can be preached about on Sunday.

 

Continuing...

 

"The lawsuit came the same week that the city of Houston issued subpoenas demanding that five Christian pastors turn over sermons dealing with homosexuality and gender identity.

What in heaven’s name is happening to our country, folks? I was under the assumption that churches and pastors would not be impacted by same-sex marriage.

“The other side insisted this would never happen – that pastors would not have to perform same-sex marriages,” Tedesco told me. “The reality is – it’s already happening.”

Tony Perkins, president of the Family Research Council, told me it’s “open season on Americans who refuse to bow to the government’s redefinition of marriage.”

“Americans are witnesses to the reality that redefining marriage is less about the marriage altar and more about fundamentally altering the freedoms of the other 98 percent of Americans,” Perkins said.

Why should evangelical Christian ministers be forced to perform and celebrate any marriage that conflicts with their beliefs?

“This is the brave new world of government-sanctioned same-sex unions – where Americans are forced to celebrate these unions regardless of their religious beliefs,” Perkins told me.

As I write in my new book, “God Less America,” we are living in a day when those who support traditional marriage are coming under fierce attack. 

The incidents in Houston and now in Coeur d’Alene are the just the latest examples of a disturbing trend in the culture war – direct attacks on clergy.

“Government officials are making clear they will use their government power to punish those who oppose the advances of homosexual activists,” Perkins said.

I’m afraid Mr. Perkins is absolutely right.

No one should be discriminated against but have you noticed that any time a city passes a “nondiscrimination” ordinance, it’s the Christians who wind up being discriminated against?"

 

 

The city overreached, and that was acknowledged. They backed down, yes? 

 

Why did the city "overreach" in the first place? Isn't this the United States of America, where freedom of speech is constitutionally guaranteed?

 

Yes, which is likely why the city backed down

 

According to one report I read, the mayor, in backing down, said she did so because the issue had become "a distraction" (in other words, she didn't like the bad publicity she was getting), not because of the action having been a gross abuse of power, which it most definitely was.

 

Great, problem solved. 

Scott Lloyd Grand Master

Scott Lloyd

Posted
  • Author
Posted (edited)

Not exactly.

 

According to the mayor's quoted statement, she backed down because the issue had "become a distraction," not because she admitted or acknowledged that the action amounted to a violation of civil liberties.

 

Which means she is prone to committing the same sort of abuse of power in the future if she thinks she can find a way to avoid adverse publicity while doing it.

 

The citizens of Houston need to vote her out of office at the first opportunity.

Edited by Scott Lloyd
1
Scott Lloyd Grand Master

Scott Lloyd

Posted
  • Author
Posted

 

Last year, a high school valedictorian was forbidden by a school district in California to mention God or religion in his high school graduation speech. He defied the order and did so anyway. Good for him!

SCOTUS has long ruled on what speech schools can restrict; not sure if it is Tinker but that is one of the free speech issues and schools.

Should we talk about the school in alaska which stripped a stundent of a sign which read "bong hits for Jesus"?

 

What Supreme Court ruling prohibits a young man from expressing personal faith in and gratitude to God in a heartfelt speech at his high school graduation?

tonie Experienced

tonie

Posted
Posted (edited)

Last year, a high school valedictorian was forbidden by a school district in California to mention God or religion in his high school graduation speech. He defied the order and did so anyway. Good for him!

SCOTUS has long ruled on what speech schools can restrict; not sure if it is Tinker but that is one of the free speech issues and schools.

Should we talk about the school in alaska which stripped a stundent of a sign which read "bong hits for Jesus"?

What Supreme Court ruling prohibits a young man from expressing personal faith in and gratitude to God in a heartfelt speech at his high school graduation?
heres a start for a brief history of United States public schools and "free speech"

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_speech_(First_Amendment)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_speech_(First_Amendment)

Edited by tonie
ttribe Grand Master

ttribe

Posted
Posted

Not exactly.

 

According to the mayor's quoted statement, she backed down because the issue had "become a distraction," not because she admitted or acknowledged that the action amounted to a violation of civil liberties.

 

Which means she is prone to committing the same sort of abuse of power in the future if she thinks she can find a way to avoid adverse publicity while doing it.

 

The citizens of Houston need to vote her out of office at the first opportunity.

What elected official would actually admit to their own gross abuse of power?

Scott Lloyd Grand Master

Scott Lloyd

Posted
  • Author
Posted (edited)

 

Not exactly.

 

According to the mayor's quoted statement, she backed down because the issue had "become a distraction," not because she admitted or acknowledged that the action amounted to a violation of civil liberties.

 

Which means she is prone to committing the same sort of abuse of power in the future if she thinks she can find a way to avoid adverse publicity while doing it.

 

The citizens of Houston need to vote her out of office at the first opportunity.

What elected official would actually admit to their own gross abuse of power?

 

Probably not very many

 

That's the point. If they do it and won't admit to it, they're not trustworthy.

Edited by Scott Lloyd
jwhitlock Veteran

jwhitlock

Posted
Posted

 

Your post does not cite to that story, but to a story that references the Houston event.  The Houston subpoenas were apparently related to tax exemption status, which is not a First Amendment issue.  Why on earth governments provide tax exemptions to religion in the first place is beyond my libertarian comprehension, as it appears to be an unconstitutional "establishment," but tax exemptions have been often repealed for religious groups.

 

 

This presupposes that the government has a right to tax that is on par with our individual rights of life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness, and the right to worship as we wish. That supposition is wrong.

 

Instead, taxation has been traditionally used as a way for governments to reward or punish as they see fit. Taxation is, in effect, a bludgeon to enforce submission to the government - and those in power in the government.

 

I'm a bit surprised that a libertarian would put taxes in the context that you do (as an "establishment") since taxes are probably the most effective demonstration of overreaching government control available. According to miy understanding, this is something libertarians are generally opposed to.

 

If you come from the perspective (and I think it is far more correct to do so) that government taxation is not a right on part with our individual rights as expressed above, then the taxation of religious organizations becomes something simply designed to enforce compliance with government demands. Hence, taxation is inherently at conflict with the principle of religious freedom.

1
Scott Lloyd Grand Master

Scott Lloyd

Posted
  • Author
Posted (edited)
heres a start for a brief history of United States public schools and "free speech"

https://en.m.wikiped...First_Amendment)

https://en.m.wikiped...First_Amendmen

 

 

 

On both links  I get this:

 

 

 

School speech (First Amendment
Look for School speech (First Amendment on one of Wikipedia's sister projects: 28px-Wiktionary-logo-en.png Wiktionary (free dictionary) 30px-Wikibooks-logo.svg.png Wikibooks (free textbooks) 25px-Wikiquote-logo.svg.png Wikiquote (quotations) 29px-Wikisource-logo.svg.png Wikisource (free library) 30px-Wikiversity-logo.svg.png Wikiversity (free learning resources) 22px-Commons-logo.svg.png Commons (images and media) 30px-Wikivoyage-Logo-v3-icon.svg.png Wikivoyage (free travel guide) 30px-Wikinews-logo.svg.png Wikinews (free news source)
Wikipedia does not have an article with this exact name. Please search for School speech (First Amendment in Wikipedia to check for alternative titles or spellings.

Other reasons this message may be displayed:

 

 

Not exactly responsive.

 

If you're telling me to Google it and find Wikipedia entries on my own, that's not a reference.

 

It's like calmoriah told someone a while back: "A whole book is not a reference."

Edited by Scott Lloyd
Bob Crockett Grand Master

Bob Crockett

Posted
Posted

 

 

Your post does not cite to that story, but to a story that references the Houston event.  The Houston subpoenas were apparently related to tax exemption status, which is not a First Amendment issue.  Why on earth governments provide tax exemptions to religion in the first place is beyond my libertarian comprehension, as it appears to be an unconstitutional "establishment," but tax exemptions have been often repealed for religious groups.

 

 

This presupposes that the government has a right to tax that is on par with our individual rights of life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness, and the right to worship as we wish. That supposition is wrong.

 

Instead, taxation has been traditionally used as a way for governments to reward or punish as they see fit. Taxation is, in effect, a bludgeon to enforce submission to the government - and those in power in the government.

 

I'm a bit surprised that a libertarian would put taxes in the context that you do (as an "establishment") since taxes are probably the most effective demonstration of overreaching government control available. According to miy understanding, this is something libertarians are generally opposed to.

 

If you come from the perspective (and I think it is far more correct to do so) that government taxation is not a right on part with our individual rights as expressed above, then the taxation of religious organizations becomes something simply designed to enforce compliance with government demands. Hence, taxation is inherently at conflict with the principle of religious freedom.

 

LIbertarians are pragmatic.  There will be taxation.  If so, there ought not be discriminatory taxation, but I also don't see charitable contributions as "revenue."

tagriffy Experienced

tagriffy

Posted
Posted

If we're going to list examples of religious freedom being trampled or threatened, it seems to me we that we need to keep it clear what freedom of religion is. Freedom of religion is the right to have and exercise one's religious beliefs free of coercion, subject only to the limits that attend to any other right. You can't force an atheist to become a Mormon and an atheist cannot force you to stop being Mormon. Essentially, that's it. Freedom of religion does not give you the right to:

 

insurance

accreditation

a job

operate a business

tax exemptions

 

Freedom of religion would give you the right not to be discriminated against in considering whether these things are granted, but that is a different thing than having the right to those things in themselves. IOW, to show the denial of these things tramples on freedom of religion, you would have to show they were denied because of the religion of the one so denied. As long as the ground upon which these things are granted or denied are neutral when it comes to religion, there is no ground for complaint one's religious freedom is being trampled or threatened.

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