Bom Evidence A White Race Of Indian And Its Extermination

[Tom m]

A white race and its extermination

(Concerning Hattera Indians of North Carolina)
"These ( Hattera Indians) tell us, that several of their Ancestors were white People, and could talk in a Book, as we do; the Truth of which is confirmed by gray eyes being found frequently amongst these Indians, and no others"
(John Lawson 1709 pg62)

The Nephites of European descent were killed off by the Lamanites. The North American Indians have a legend of a foreign white race some stating that they were completely killed or removed from certain areas.

 

(Captain Brant Thayendanegea was a well known Iroquois and Mohawk leader and Chief who sided with the British during the Revolutionary war. He was born of Iroquois parents who converted to Christianity. They gave him a Christian name Joseph Brant. The quote is from his biography)
“I was curious to learn in the course of my conversations with Captain Brant (Thayendanegea Mohawk/Iroquois  Chief), what information he could give me respecting the tumuli (mounds) which are found on and near the margin of the rivers and lakes, from the St. Lawrence to the Mississippi. He stated, in reply, that the subject had long been agitated, but yet remained in some obscurity. A tradition, he said, prevailed among the different nations of Indians through-out that whole extensive range of country, and had been handed down time immemorial, that in an age long gone by, there came white men from a foreign country, and by consent of the Indians established trading-houses and settlements where these tumuli (mounds) are found. A friendly intercourse was continued for several years; many of the white men brought their wives, and had children born to them; and additions to their numbers were made yearly from their own country. These circumstances at length gave rise to jealousies among the Indians, and fears began to be entertained in regard to the increasing numbers, wealth, and ulterior views of the new comers; apprehending that becoming strong, they might one day seize upon the country as their own. A secret council, composed of the chiefs of all the different nations from the St. Lawrence to the Mississippi, was therefore convoked ; the result of which, after long deliberation, was a resolution that on a certain night designated for that purpose, all their white neighbors, men, women and children, should be exterminated. “
(Stone 1838 pg484)

 

 

"Here the Indians tell us there was a war in early times, against an Indian
town, traces of which are yet visible, cornpits, etc This was inhabited by a
distinct nation, neither Iroquois nor Delawares, who spoke a peculiar language,
and were called Tehotitachse, Against them the Five Nations warred and routed
them out; the Cayugas for a time held a number captive, but the nation and
the language are now exterminated and extinct
(Louise Welles Murray 1908 pg 46)

 

(Thayendanegea Mohawk/Iroquois  Chief),

“From the earliest knowledge the white men have possessed of the country
of western New- York, the Painted Post has been noted as a geographical land- mark. When first traversed by the white men, a large oaken post stood at the spot, which has retained the name to this day. It was painted in the Indian manner, and was guarded as a monument by the Indiana, who renewed it as- often as it save evidence of going to decay. Tradition says it was a monument of great antiquity, marking the spot of a great and bloody battle, according to some statements. According to others, it was erected to perpetuate the memory of some great war-chief.(My opinion is the great Chief is Mormon I can’t prove it though)”
(Painted Post, New York is located about 70 miles away from Hill Cumorah)
(Stone 1838 pg318)

 

The Nephites became Lamanites and Lamanites became Nephites suggesting different shades in skin color as the Book of Mormon states.

    "To date, haplogroup X has not been unambiguously identified in Asia, raising the possibility that some Native American founders were of Caucasian ancestry."
William Penn wrote the following to a friend in England. “I found them [the Indians of the eastern shore of North America] with like countenances with the Hebrew race; and their children of so lively a resemblance to them that a man would think himself in Duke’s place, or Barry street, in London, when he sees them.”

“The Cherokee are of a lighter color than the
greater number of the North American Indians
that are known to me.”

(Barton 1798 pgXIV)

“They (Algonquin Indians) have the same complexion as the French” JOSEPH, JOUVENCY 1710

(About Gaspesian/Mik Maq Indians)

“Although children are born among them
with hair of different colours, as in Europe,”
(Clercq 1680 pg237)

 

“The hue or color of their bodies is generally not as white as ours though some quite fair skinned ones are to be found and most are born white”
(In Mohawk Country: Early Narratives about a Native People
By Dean R. Snow, Charles T. Gehring, William A. Starna)

 

“There is a dim but persistent tradition of a strange white race preceding the Cherokee, some of the stories even going so far as to locate their former settlements and to identify them as the authors of the ancient works found in the country. The earliest reference appears to be that of Barton in 1797, on the statement of a gentleman whom he quotes as a valuable authority upon the southern tribes. "The Cherokee tell us, that when they first arrived in the country which they inhabit, they found it possessed by certain 'moon-eyed people,' who could not see in the day-time. These wretches they expelled." He seems to consider them an albino race.* Haywood, twenty'-six years later, says that the invading Cherokee found "white people" near the head of the Little Tennessee, with forts extending thence down the Tennessee as far as Chickamauga creek. He gives the location of three of these forts. The Cherokee made war against them and drove them to the mouth of Big Chickamauga creek, where they entered into a treaty and agreed to remove if permitted to depart in peace. Permission being granted, they abandoned the country. Elsewhere he speaks of this extirpated white race as having extended into Kentucky and probably also into western Tennessee, according to the concurrent traditions of different tribes.”
(Mooney 1902 pg22)

 

“Did not these skeletons belong to persons of the same race with those white people, who were extirpated in part, and in part driven from Kentucky, and probably also from
West Tennessee, as Indian tradition reports?”
(Haywood 1823 pg 166)

 

“An old Indian, in conversation with colonel James F. Moore, of Kentucky, informed him that the western country, and particularly Kentucky, had once been inhabited by white people, but that they were exterminated by the Indians. That the last battle was fought at the falls of Ohio, and that the Indians succeeded in driving the Aborigines into a small island below the rapids, where the whole of them were cut to pieces.
(M.H. Frost 1819; On the aborigines of the Western Countries)

 

“Mr. Thomas Bodley was informed by Indians of different tribes north-west of the Ohio, that they had understood from their old men, and that it had been a tradition among their several nations, that Kentucky had been settled by whites, and that they had been exterminated by war. They were of opinion that the old fortifications, now to be seen in Kentucky and Ohio, were the productions of those white inhabitants. Wappockanitta, a Shawnee chief, near a hundred and twenty years old, living on the Auglaze river, confirmed the above tradition.”
(M.H. Frost 1819; On the aborigines of the Western Countries)

Mass Burial Pit
“Mr. Ramey, the owner of the mound, speaks about digging in one part of the field and finding heaps of bones eight feet deep, and says that the bones are everywhere present.”
(Peet 1892 pg 163)

 

“Half a mile from this place, at the foot of the mountain, in a large cave full of human bones, perhaps several wagon loads; some of which are small, and others very large”
(Haywood 1823 pg153)

Edited July 3, 2015 by Tom m

[ERayR]

Where are the Nephite temples?

[Brant Gardner]

There are reasons why modern historians and archaeologists do not use these sources as evidence. The "people with a book" story has traveled far and wide. I have seen it from different cultures across thousands of miles. It is recorded in Mesoamerica long before it is recorded in the Northeast--but I don't think it reliable history in either case.

The "white Indian" is another popular myth that was developed only in the records of those who had a reason to invent the idea. There is little real evidence behind it (though I have also seen in in Mesoamerica).

[Tom m]

There are reasons why modern historians and archaeologists do not use these sources as evidence. The "people with a book" story has traveled far and wide. I have seen it from different cultures across thousands of miles. It is recorded in Mesoamerica long before it is recorded in the Northeast--but I don't think it reliable history in either case.

The "white Indian" is another popular myth that was developed only in the records of those who had a reason to invent the idea. There is little real evidence behind it (though I have also seen in in Mesoamerica).

Haplo group x is a Caucasian European dna marker which is found in Native American when you say that there is no real evidence is completely false. Dna evidence alone is used to convict criminals of serious crimes

 

"To date, haplogroup X has not been unambiguously identified in Asia, raising the possibility that some Native American founders were of Caucasian ancestry."

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929707616292

 

“Overall,the sequence data and phylogenetic analysis suggest that the Native American and the European haplogroup X mtDNAs share a common maternal ancestor”

mtDNA Haplogroup X: An Ancient Link between Europe/Western Asia and North America

Michael D. Brown,1 Seyed H. Hosseini,1 Antonio Torroni,2 Hans-Ju¨rgenBandelt,3 Jon C. Allen,1 Theodore G. Schurr,1 Rosaria Scozzari,2 Fulvio Cruciani,2 and Douglas C. Wallace1

 

I will also add the early explores and Jesuit priest found Indian tribes of all very different shades of skin color of some of which said they looked European.

 

 

William Penn wrote the following to a friend in England. “I found them [the Indians of the eastern shore of North America] with like countenances with the Hebrew race; and their children of so lively a resemblance to them that a man would think himself in Duke’s place, or Barry street, in London, when he sees them.”

“The Cherokee are of a lighter color than the

greater number of the North American Indians

that are known to me.”

(Barton 1798 pgXIV)

 

“They (Algonquin Indians) have the same complexion as the French” JOSEPH, JOUVENCY 1710

 

(About Gaspesian/Mik Maq Indians)

“Although children are born among them

with hair of different colours, as in Europe,”

(Clercq 1680 pg237)

 

“The hue or color of their bodies is generally not as white as ours though some quite fair skinned ones are to be found and most are born white”

(In Mohawk Country: Early Narratives about a Native People

By Dean R. Snow, Charles T. Gehring, William A. Starna)

Edited July 3, 2015 by Tom m

[ERayR]

There are reasons why modern historians and archaeologists do not use these sources as evidence. The "people with a book" story has traveled far and wide. I have seen it from different cultures across thousands of miles. It is recorded in Mesoamerica long before it is recorded in the Northeast--but I don't think it reliable history in either case.

The "white Indian" is another popular myth that was developed only in the records of those who had a reason to invent the idea. There is little real evidence behind it (though I have also seen in in Mesoamerica).

 

I remember something about"white Indians" in South America at one time.

[Tom m]

Where are the Nephite temples?

Temple /Masonic medallion

 

“A remarkable temple was situated in the town of Talmaco, upon the Savannah River, three miles distant from Cutifatchi- que, near Silver Bluff. It was more than one hundred feet in length, and fifty feet in width. The walls were high in proportion, and the roof steep and covered with mats of split cane, interwoven so compactly that they resembled the rush carpeting of the Moors.”

(Joseph Jones

“They call themselves Aquanuskion (Algonquin), or ye  Covenant People.",

(Louise Welles Murray 1908)

 

(Gaspesian/Mik Maq Indians)

"not an Indian would ever dare to

appear before the others without having in his hand,

on his skin, or on his garments this sacred sign"

(Clercq 1680 pg147)

 

 

“In the center of the mound, about three feet from its sur- face, I uncovered a large sacrificial vase, or altar, forty-three inches in diameter, composed of a mixture of clay and river shells. The rim of the vase was three inches in height. The entire vessel had been molded in a large wicker basket, formed of split canes, and the leaves of the cane, the impressions of which were plainly visible upon the outer surface. The circle of the vase appeared to be almost mathematically correct. The surface of the altar was covered with a layer of ashes, about one inch in thickness, and these ashes had the appearance and composition of having been derived from the burning,”

(Joseph Jones)

 

(During ancient times Hebrews maintain an eternal flame at the tabernacle/temple Exodus 27:20,21)

“Henri de Tonto, who travelled with de la Salle and wrote an extensive report, thought them most “polished” people he had seen. As with the Illinois and Natchez, they maintained a sacred fire that was nerver allowed to go out in their major Temple….an elaborate palace with decorated walls ten feet high”

A Cultural History of the Atlantic World, 1250-1820

By John K. Thornton

The Potta-wat-um-ees moved up Lake Michigan, and by taking with them, or for a time perpetuating the national fire, which according to tradition was sacredly kept alive in their more primitive days, they have obtained the name of "those who make or keep the fire," which is the literal meaning of their tribal cognomen.

(Warren Williams)

 

(Gaspesian/Mik Maq Indians)

"In a word, they value the Cross (Greek cross found in Hopewell ruins) so highly

that they order it to be interred with them in their coffins

after death, in the belief that this Cross will bear

them company in the other world, and that they would not

be recognised by their ancestors if they had not with them

the symbol and honourable token which distinguishes the

Cross-bearers from all the other Indians of New France."

(Clercq 1680 pg151)

“Near Portsmouth, a flourishing town at the mouth of the Scioto, a medal was found in alluvial earth, several years since, by a Mr. White, a number of feet below the surface….This medal, I regret to state, is not in my possession, but it has been described to me by Gen. Robert Lucas and the Hon. Ezra Osborn, Esq. It was Masonic; the device on one side of it, represented a human heart with a sprig of cassia growing out of it; on the other side was a temple, with a cupola and spire, at the summit of which was a half moon, and there was a star in front of the temple. There were Roman letters on both sides of this medal, but what they were, Gen. Lucas and Judge Osborn have forgotten; they were probably abbreviations.”

(Atwater 1833  pg117)

Edited July 3, 2015 by Tom m

[Brant Gardner]

Haplo group x is a Caucasian European dna marker which is found in Native American when you say that there is no real evidence is completely false. Dna evidence alone is used to convict criminals of serious crimes

 

"To date, haplogroup X has not been unambiguously identified in Asia, raising the possibility that some Native American founders were of Caucasian ancestry."

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929707616292

Tom, repeating the same thing over and over again will not improve it as an argument. You are offering one article from 17 years ago against the more recent research that contradicts it. No matter how often you cite the article from 17 years ago, it will still be out of date and your information will still misrepresent the current information on the science.

 

I will also add the early explores and Jesuit priest found Indian tribes of all very different shades of skin color of some of which said they looked European.

And another repeat of the same kind of information from the same era. Repeating it doesn't improve it. The reports (and there are many like this) have problems. They come from distortions of the recorders, not actual information. They have never been corroborated by solid anthropology. The fact that someone said that there were white people simply places this statement alongside that of so many others from so many other locations (including Central and South America). It is an artifact of the nature of the cultural collision, not evidence for the Book of Mormon.

[Tom m]

Brant

 

 This quote comes from a recent article dated November 22 2013.

 

"DNA from the remains revealed genes found today in western Eurasians in the Middle East and Europe, as well as other aspects unique to Native Americans, but no evidence of any relation to modern East Asians"

 

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/11/131120-science-native-american-people-migration-siberia-genetics/

 

I do disagree with much of the article but halp group x is European or middle eastern I will let you pick both support the Book of Mormon.

[juliann]

Tom, I suggest you take a look at Brant's credentials. What does "white" even mean in this context?  It is irrelevant at best and racist at worst. The BOM doesn't have to refer to skin color anymore than the Bible does when it uses the same words.

[Tom m]

Tom, I suggest you take a look at Brant's credentials. What does "white" even mean in this context?  It is irrelevant at best and racist at worst. The BOM doesn't have to refer to skin color anymore than the Bible does when it uses the same words.

Its a fact that European dna existed in North Native American Indians before Columbus. I would suggest that Brant move to the North American model soon or his writings will become completely irrelevant in the near future. The evidence artifacts customs and beliefs are all moving to North America.

[ERayR]

Its a fact that European dna existed in North Native American Indians before Columbus. I would suggest that Brant move to the North American model soon or his writings will become completely irrelevant in the near future. The evidence artifacts customs and beliefs are all moving to North America.

 

I am not one to be unduly impressed by credentials, having a few myself, but I have seen some of Brant's work and what I have seen is impeccable.

 

What I have seen of yours is not.  Please post your credentials.

[Bob Crockett]

In the National Museum of Anthropologie in Mexico City there is Aztec artwork showing war between white and dark Natives.  My university guide told me this is evidence there used to be a different race in the Valley of Mexico.   Isn't that even better proof than these oral legends?

[Tom m]

In the National Museum of Anthropologie in Mexico City there is Aztec artwork showing war between white and dark Natives.  My university guide told me this is evidence there used to be a different race in the Valley of Mexico.   Isn't that even better proof than these oral legends?

There is no dna that would distinguish between the different skin colors in central and South America. In North America you do have Caucasian dna found in North American Indians plus all the Hebrew North American customs and ties that go along with it. In central and south America there are no Hebrew ties.

[ERayR]

There is no dna that would distinguish between the different skin colors in central and South America. In North America you do have Caucasian dna found in North American Indians plus all the Hebrew North American customs and ties that go along with it. In central and south America there are no Hebrew ties.

 

Given your information and your interpretation is correct (I haven't seen any evidence of that).  Why would there be?  If one stays strictly with Lamanites and Nephites being the only inhabitants their DNA comes from a common source.

 

Your knowledge base of Meso-American customs and old world connections is sadly lacking.  What is sad is you don't seem to recognize how ignorant of these things you really are.  Take a few months off posting and inform yourself then if you still want you can come back and convert the board. 

 

Hint:  Meldrums website is not the only nor best sit for accurate information.

[Bob Crockett]

There is no dna that would distinguish between the different skin colors in central and South America. In North America you do have Caucasian dna found in North American Indians plus all the Hebrew North American customs and ties that go along with it. In central and south America there are no Hebrew ties.

But, the title of your thread here deal with a white race of indian, not DNA, and I've cited pretty solid evidence of pre-conquest of evidence of two different-skinned races in the Valley of Mexico pre-conquest.  

 

The Museum of Anthropolgie also has a pre-conquest Toltec sculpture of a European-looking man with a beard.

Edited July 3, 2015 by Bob Crockett

[carbon dioxide]

Its a fact that European dna existed in North Native American Indians before Columbus. I would suggest that Brant move to the North American model soon or his writings will become completely irrelevant in the near future. The evidence artifacts customs and beliefs are all moving to North America.

Even if there is European DNA in North American indians, what does that have to do with the BOM.  Lehi was not from England or France. 

[Brant Gardner]

Its a fact that European dna existed in North Native American Indians before Columbus.

Tom, your last quotation is much more recent and reflects the newer data. Those data show western asian moved eastward and mixed with the east asians. You are getting a little too loose with your terms. None of that is European. Of course, Israelites were not Europeans either.

Still, cherry picking only a statement out of the entire article doesn't mean that the article supports your hypothesis. What they have traced is something very different that what you have suggested, and certainly significantly earlier than any Book of Mormon migration.

The data still don't support your hypothesis, even if the headline sounds closer to what you want.

[Tom m]

As you know Lehi was the tribe of Manasseh not Judah so its not requisite that haplo group x be a Jewish dna Marker. But what is more important is that Manasseh is of the Northern Kingdom not of the southern kinddom and we know that the Ten tribes went North. So the fact that there is Eropean dna in native Americans is a good match.  Hopewell Indian advanced metallurgy and woven cloth is technology that dates to Biblical times to Israel and the surrounding area. This technology predates and Bering Land bridge crossing not to mention all the Hebrew customs ties and language of North American Indians. Also if you look at the quotes below scientist have admitted this to a certain extent.

 

The haplo group x 11000 year timeline given in the article below  is between (11000-43000) its a 32000 year very broad timeline given by mtdna diversity and they mention it is uncertain. As mentioned in my essay this also would not explain Hopewell Metallurgy technology and cloth as it predates it. The fact that metallurgy and cloth died out with the Hopewell is excellent evidence for the Book of Mormon.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC379119/

"The timing of initial entry into the Americas is uncertain. Through use of estimates of mtDNA diversity and rates of mtDNA evolution, a broad range of dates (11,000–43,000 years BP) have been estimated (Torroni et al. 1994; Bonatto and Salzano 1997a; Lorenz and Smith 1997; Stone and Stoneking 1998). Although researchers have recognized the need to incorporate population history in their estimates, the wide range of dates reported in the literature for the peopling of the Americas suggests that accurate models of Native American population history, accurate models of the evolution of mtDNA, and sufficient sampling of populations in the Americas have not yet emerged. For example, a large proportion of Native American linguistic diversity is found within California, yet only a few California Native American tribes and individuals have been typed for mtDNA markers (Lorenz and Smith 1996)."

This second quote given makes a lot more sense to the current archeological and linguistic evidence provided in North America about haplo group x.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC379119/

"Our sample of haplogroup X consists of a large percentage of shared haplotypes among tribes speaking Chippewa/Ojibwa languages and dialects. The haplogroup X network and distribution of haplogroup frequencies suggest that populations with relatively high frequencies of haplogroup X experienced an expansion in the Great Lakes region. This expansion, which generated a value of ?S only half that for haplogroup B, must have occurred much more recently in prehistory than the expansion of haplogroup B. Archeological, linguistic, and genetic evidence all strongly support the expansion of Algonquian-speakers from the Great Lakes region, ~2,500–3,000 years BP (Denny 1991; Malhi et al. 2001). Ancient-DNA studies of prehistoric populations from the Great Lakes region demonstrated that this Algonquian expansion probably occurred 700–3,000 years BP (Schultz et al. 2001)."

[Brant Gardner]

Hopewell Indian advanced metallurgy and woven cloth is technology that dates to Biblical times to Israel and the surrounding area. This technology predates and Bering Land bridge crossing not to mention all the Hebrew customs ties and language of North American Indians. Also if you look at the quotes below scientist have admitted this to a certain extent.

There are a very large number of peoples in the world who date to Biblical times. Nephites in the Book of Mormon fit into that range. However, if the only criteria is when they lived, pretty much the whole world had people living in it during that time.

Your statement that Hopewell technology predates the Bering Land bridge is simply incorrect based on any study published by any reputable scientist. The idea that there are ties to Hebrew language is a conceit of early writers for North America, but they were wrong. There is no connection at all, and that is according to modern linguistics that actually understands languages rather than the early reports of those who really didn't understand linguistics.

As for Hebrew customs, that is also coming from the same time period and has the same problem of poor reporting. That it the reason I keep telling you that you have to stop relying on those sources. They are known to be wrong. Building theories on sources that have been discredited for decades (lots of decades) doesn't help.

[Tom m]

The native Americans even today practice Hebrew like rituals in terms of their beliefs. Like their beliefs of purification and their use of Masonic like sweat lodges/temples. To say that all these sources form different centuries in different languages conspired together to lie about Native American beliefs customs and language is laughable especially when they DNA is from Isreal and the Middle East. You want to say that they were all lying about native American customs does not line up. These people were making observations. If you can show these observations have nothing to do with Hebrew customs and beliefs as stated you have a better argument. The only thing I can say is that the hill Cumorah is in North America and the Hopewell Indians have everything needed to be Nephites.

[Hagoth]

Brant

 

 This quote comes from a recent article dated November 22 2013.

 

 

Please look at the new data (Kennewick Man) that came out last month.

[Tom m]

Please look at the new data (Kennewick Man) that came out last month.

Hagoth is from new order Mormon don't listen to him. The haplo group x 33000 bc timeline is disproven by smelting and Hebrew ties and language

Edited July 4, 2015 by Tom m

[Calm]

"Hagoth is from new order Mormon don't listen to him"

Have you posted there? It would appear that you have, so I guess that means we don't have to listen to you either.

Thanks for letting us know, that will save a lot of time.

Edited July 4, 2015 by calmoriah

[The Nehor]

Hagoth is from new order Mormon don't listen to him. The haplo group x 33000 bc timeline is disproven by smelting and Hebrew ties and language

 

Is he following you?

[Calm]

Apparently Tom flooded NOM like he has done here. I feel betrayed, we were not his first choice.