John Sorenson Wrong Golden Plates Right

[PeterPear]

The funny thing is that "Tornado alley" has tornadoes only a yearly basis.  Some years more than others.  There is no indication of the Nephites having to deal with tornadoes on a regular basis.  If anything this would be evidence against the assertion that the BOM lands was in the midwest or eastern US.  The "whirlwinds" was a fairly rare encounter they had with it. 

 

That's not accurate. The Book of Mormon is not a text on meteorology. The only instances when "the weather" are mentioned is to prove a prophetic point - as when Nephi asked for a drought, or rains returning, or the destruction by whirlwinds.

 

The word "rain" is mentioned only ten times in the text of the Book of Mormon, thus according to your logic, rain only fell ten times from 600 B.C. to 420 A.D.  

 

As early as Mosiah, whirlwinds are mentioned.

30 And again, he saith: If my people shall sow filthiness they shall reap the chaff thereof in the whirlwind; and the effect thereof is poison.

 

Chaff in the whirlwind - it's known that straw blown by the winds of tornadoes can pierce trees., etc. etc.

Edited July 4, 2015 by PeterPear

[mfbukowski]

Yep. Notice how my post saying the same thing basically was ignored by Tom.

 

I've lived in Tornado Alley for a good part of my life.  We used to stand outside watching the sky turn green as kids and things getting picked up and throw around was not uncommon at all.  Right after we moved from Kansas a massive system came through where we had lived and some neigbours lost their home and about ten iirc people died in a close location.

I went through one of those green skies in Eldorado Kansas on the Kansas turnpike.  I could not see outside the windows, there was so much water pouring over my car. I had to stop under an over pass because I could not see. The hail was deafening.  It was like being in a tin can with 25 drummers hammering away on the outside.  The car was rocking and rolling and then on the radio they announced that a tornado had just touched down on the Eldorado offramp.  That is exactly where I was.

 

No more, thank you very much,   I will take earthquakes over tornadoes anytime.  One does not fly away in an earthquake.

[Calm]

People do get used to them though.  We had the civil alarm go off like it did when tornado alerts were issued for the area right at the end of one of my son's birthday parties.  Feeling responsible I gathered all the boys and had them go sit under the staircase in the basement (it was thankfully a nice area).  Then the doorbell started ringing.  The parents had just ignored the alert to come get the kids.  I wouldn't have minded at all keeping them an extra hour but not one called and asked me to do it but just came and picked them up.  Thankfully, that was not one of the bad ones.  The following year it would have been the worst in 25 years the day after the party, but I was pregnant at the time and our son was eight so family came and with the weather looking bad went pretty quickly as soon as the baptism was over with so I don't know if they were still in town when the first wave hit.

 

I have been in earthquakes and tornadoes...can't decide which I like the least.  Bad earthquakes generally do more damage overall.  I think I would go for a minor earthquake over a minor tornado though, one that just shakes a few things off the wall (worked in a bookstore during one once and was very grateful that was my day off because the next day I heard they got to spend half of the day putting the books back up on the shelves (storage went up on open shelves two stories high).  Much nicer than have glass shards flying through your neighbours' backyards because your dad hadn't bothered to fix a broken storm window so the floor to ceiling 1.5 wide window made a very interested sound as it got pulled from its setting.  None touched down in our yard, spread out over the next two neighbours, probably at least a hundred shards.  Too young to help pick them up.  Grateful the dogs and cats in the neighbourhood had gone under cover and it was a night so no one outsdie tempting faith.  They would have been so dead with all those shards right through them...just like a horror movie.  

 

We had an F5 Tornado go through a town 30 miles north of us a few months before we moved way up north, supposedly away from tornadoes...but should have checked that weather map as it leans over into Alberta.

 

Right after we moved to Canada from Kansas, we were driving down through the freeway south of Calgary and off to the right a small tornado formed and then thankfully relatively quickly disappeared...weirdest thing.  There was nowhere to park under so we just kept on driving hoping it would go the other direction.  That was probably closer than we had gotten to all the tornadoes in Kansas.

Edited July 4, 2015 by calmoriah

[carbon dioxide]

That's not accurate. The Book of Mormon is not a text on meteorology. The only instances when "the weather" are mentioned is to prove a prophetic point - as when Nephi asked for a drought, or rains returning, or the destruction by whirlwinds.

 

The word "rain" is mentioned only ten times in the text of the Book of Mormon, thus according to your logic, rain only fell ten times from 600 B.C. to 420 A.D.  

 

As early as Mosiah, whirlwinds are mentioned.

30 And again, he saith: If my people shall sow filthiness they shall reap the chaff thereof in the whirlwind; and the effect thereof is poison.

 

Chaff in the whirlwind - it's known that straw blown by the winds of tornadoes can pierce trees., etc. etc.

I would agree.  My point is that the destruction by the whirlwinds is a rare thing in the BOM.  Thus there is no reason to believe that the Book of Mormon setting occurred in Tornado alley. 

[Robert F. Smith]

I agree. Jake Hilton is on my FB friend's list. But you won't find much sympathy from about anyone else here. They are very sold on Meso-America.

You should learn to speak for yourself, Luvr.  Your blanket opinionated statements are not appreciated, but substantive comments might be.

[Robert F. Smith]

John Sorenson was completely wrong about the calendar that the Nephites used.

"Putting these two sets of information together, we see that the fighting season referred to in the annals of the wars in the books of Mosiah through Helaman—their months eleven through two—likely coincided approximately with November through February in our calendar. Moreover their new year's day is likely to have fallen near winter solstice (December 21/22), as with many other peoples of the ancient world.

............................................................................................

If this was correct that means the crucifixion of Christ visit would have happened in the Month of January (3NE 8:5). It is a known fact that the crucifixion happened in April or the first month of the Hebrew Calendar. Why he did not use the Hebrew calendar is a complete mystery. The only thing I can assume is that the dates mentioned in the Book of Mormon and the Roman calendar line up better in Meso America(dry season, harvest season).

John Sorenson has proposed several different types of calendars for Book of Mormon times, and this one is the least likely of his proposals, and you didn't bother to cite your source (a bad thing hereabouts), so that everyone could read his proposal in context.  Indeed, your alternative is completely off the mark.

 

The Hebrew calendar and the Nephite calendar match up perfectly in North America. The wars mentioned in the Book of Mormon happened mainly between the 2nd and 4th month. That's spring through summer in north America and wearing of the famous loin cloths by the Lamanites.

I saw that there was one battle fought in the 11th month which is winter in the central plains of North America. The Book of Mormon states that the Lamanites wore "very thick garments" Alma 49:6. Obviously no issue there.

Another match is north America is time of Christ visit which happened in the First month (3NE 8:5)

During the destruction people were carried away never to be seen or heard of again.(3NE8:16)

16 And there were some who were carried away in the whirlwind; and whither they went no man knoweth, save they know that they were carried away.

That sounds like tornados to me.(meso America does not have Tornadoes). The first month of the Hebrew/Nephite calendar coincides with tornado season in the central plains of North America.

You might want to consider hurricanes, Tom.  That is the name of the biggest tornado you will ever meet.  The smallest is a dust devil.  

 

The most perceptive suggestion on which calendar fits was made by Sorenson over forty years ago, and it is the only suggestion which works -- through synchronizing the first year of the reign of King Zedekiah (an absolute date) with the birth of Christ and the death of Christ (which had to be at Passover in Springtime).  All historical requirements are met by the only calendar which could have been used, and it was used by all Mesoamerican cultures, and only by them.  It was called the "Long Count," and consists of 360-day years.  Using those years, one obtains 600 Long Count years between the first year of Zedekiah (597-596 BC) and the birth of Christ in the Fall of 5 BC, and his death 33 years and 4 days later at Jewish Passover.  All other calendars fail.  Do the math.

[Robert F. Smith]

Sorensen was just trying to prove the Central America model he was just looking in the wrong spot. It's amazing how the Book of Mormon and the North American natives artifacts, linguistics and culture match Hebrew culture and language.

I know of no evidence which would support this claim.

 

Have you bothered to take my advice on how to formulate a coherent presentation of the facts?

[Robert F. Smith]

Pass me the popcorn.

It's always entertaining to watch advocates of an historic Book of Mormon tell other adherents of the same that their evidence hokum.

A necessary evil.  Enjoy !!

[filovirus]

I am a bit confused. We know Christ visited in the first month. But do we know how much time passed between his death and his visit? I always assumed it was as short as a few weeks and as long as many months.

[Brant Gardner]

I am a bit confused. We know Christ visited in the first month. But do we know how much time passed between his death and his visit? I always assumed it was as short as a few weeks and as long as many months.

There is a difference of opinion on that topic. There are those who have argued for Christ appearing soon after his resurrection. I think the text is pretty clear in stating that a year had passed.

And it came to pass in the thirty and fourth year, in the first month, on the fourth day of the month, there arose a great storm, such an one as never had been known in all the land.

(3 Nephi 8:5)

18 And it came to pass that in the ending of the thirty and fourth year, behold, I will show unto you that the people of Nephi who were spared, and also those who had been called Lamanites, who had been spared, did have great favors shown unto them, and great blessings poured out upon their heads, insomuch that soon after the ascension of Christ into heaven he did truly manifest himself unto them—

19 Showing his body unto them, and ministering unto them; and an account of his ministry shall be given hereafter. Therefore for this time I make an end of my sayings.

(3 Nephi 10:18–19)

[Robert F. Smith]

I am a bit confused. We know Christ visited in the first month. But do we know how much time passed between his death and his visit? I always assumed it was as short as a few weeks and as long as many months.

It was about one year.

[canard78]

A necessary evil. Enjoy !!

Indeed. If it's any reassurance, as someone who questions its historicity at all, the Mesoamerites are beating the Meldrumians by a long margin. It's like watching Floyd Mayweather climb into the ring with a wet fart.

[thesometimesaint]

I went through one of those green skies in Eldorado Kansas on the Kansas turnpike.  I could not see outside the windows, there was so much water pouring over my car. I had to stop under an over pass because I could not see. The hail was deafening.  It was like being in a tin can with 25 drummers hammering away on the outside.  The car was rocking and rolling and then on the radio they announced that a tornado had just touched down on the Eldorado offramp.  That is exactly where I was.

 

No more, thank you very much,   I will take earthquakes over tornadoes anytime.  One does not fly away in an earthquake.

 

The only good thing about Earthquakes is that you don't have to pick your stuff up five counties over.

Edited July 5, 2015 by thesometimesaint

[Calm]

Since there is no reason not to continue off topic topic....

http://www.cnn.com/2013/01/30/us/deadliest-tornadoes/ tornadoes

http://www.toponlinecolleges.com/blog/2011/the-10-deadliest-quakes-in-u-s-history/ quakes

http://www.weather.com/storms/hurricane/news/10-worst-hurricanes-american-history-20140818#/3 hurricanes

http://www.livescience.com/32410-whats-the-deadliest-natural-phenomenon.html what is the deadliest thing nature throws at us? None of the above...

Edited July 5, 2015 by calmoriah

[carbon dioxide]

You might want to consider hurricanes, Tom.  That is the name of the biggest tornado you will ever meet.  The smallest is a dust devil.  

 

16 And there were some who were carried away in the whirlwind; and whither they went no man knoweth, save they know that they were carried away.

 

Based on this verse, I think it has to be a hurricane.  Even with an EF5 tornado, though it may throw small debris many miles away, humans will only be thrown a short distance before gravity takes over.  Hurricanes have strong wind but also flooding associated with them  The flooding part will carry people away and possibly lost forever.  The flood that sometimes occurs in thunderstorms with tornadoes is not as severe and not usually connected with the tornado that are short events.

Edited July 5, 2015 by carbon dioxide

[Sevenbak]

I am a bit confused. We know Christ visited in the first month. But do we know how much time passed between his death and his visit? I always assumed it was as short as a few weeks and as long as many months.

From the text, It was about a year between his death and his visit to the Nephites.

 

According to Mormon, the death of Christ happened in the first month on the 4th day of the 34th year.

But In Chapter 10, vs. 18-19 we read:  "And it came to pass that in the ending of the thirty and fourth year, behold, I will show unto you that the people of Nephi who were spared, and also those who had been called a Lamanites, who had been spared, did have great favors shown unto them, and great blessings poured out upon their heads, insomuch that soon after the ascension of Christ into heaven he did truly manifest himself unto them."

[Anijen]

Some important questions to ask when considering any Hopewell site as a possible setting for the Book of Mormon:

 

Is any of the evidence submitted controversial, such as do many believe such item is a fake i.e. Bat Creek Stone?

Does the evidence presented date to the time of the Book of Mormon?

Did they have a written language?

Did the population of the Hopewell site in question match what the population a city from the Book of Mormon have?

Did that population number exist in the time of the Book of Mormon? An example of this is the largest Hopewell mound in the U.S. is Cahokia, but remember Cahokia at its highest populated peak [50K] did not meet the number as written about in the Book of Mormon and at that peak was 1150 AD (not during the time of the Book of Mormon).

 

Those are just a few questions perhaps ought to be considered when discussing a possible Hopewell setting for the Book of Mormon.

[hagoth7]

Hi BoML,

...But you won't find much sympathy from about anyone else here. They are very sold on Meso-America.

 

?? I'm not sure why you would say that.

 

I currently favor a North American model for the epicenter of Nephite activity. And I wouldn't be surprised if there are others here that are of a similar opinion.

 

But I certainly respect the rights of those who favor a different model.

[hagoth7]

That's laughable.

 

Google Tornado Alley in North America

Tom,

 

For what it's worth, you might have a better experience here if you didn't laugh at valid points.

[KevinG]

The Nephites lived in Utah.

 

[Mormonmaniac]

The mounds were the last defense of the nephites.

[Anijen]

The mounds were the last defense of the nephites.

Although I can see the romantic notion of such an idea, there is just no archaeological evidence for such a theory. However, I do believe it was the predominant theory of many of our past church members and some leaders.

[Mormonmaniac]

Although I can see the romantic notion of such an idea, there is just no archaeological evidence for such a theory. However, I do believe it was the predominant theory of many of our past church members and some leaders.

What kind of archaeology evidence you want? Many of the mounds and earthen works of the Ohio river valley were built as fortifications.

[Calm]

Ones from the right time and with the right numbers.

[George D]

And what sets them apart as Nephite artifacts? 

 

Please tell me where I can find the great prophet Onandagus in the Book of Mormon?

The onandaga tribe located in New York is probably named after onadagus