John Sorenson Wrong Golden Plates Right

[Tom m]

John Sorenson was completely wrong about the calendar that the Nephites used.

"Putting these two sets of information together, we see that the fighting season referred to in the annals of the wars in the books of Mosiah through Helaman—their months eleven through two—likely coincided approximately with November through February in our calendar. Moreover their new year's day is likely to have fallen near winter solstice (December 21/22), as with many other peoples of the ancient world.

First month began near our December 22.

Second month began near January 21.

Third month began near February 20.

Fourth month began near March 22.

Fifth month began near April 21.

Sixth month began near May 21.

Seventh month began near June 20.

Eighth month began near July 20.

Ninth month began near August 19

Tenth month began near September 18.

Eleventh month began near October 18.

Twelfth month began near November 17."

If this was correct that means the crucifixion of Christ visit would have happened in the Month of January (3NE 8:5). It is a known fact that the crucifixion happened in April or the first month of the Hebrew Calendar. Why he did not use the Hebrew calendar is a complete mystery. The only thing I can assume is that the dates mentioned in the Book of Mormon and the Roman calendar line up better in Meso America(dry season, harvest season).

The Hebrew calendar and the Nephite calendar match up perfectly in North America. The wars mentioned in the Book of Mormon happened mainly between the 2nd and 4th month. That's spring through summer in north America and wearing of the famous loin cloths by the Lamanites.

I saw that there was one battle fought in the 11th month which is winter in the central plains of North America. The Book of Mormon states that the Lamanites wore "very thick garments" Alma 49:6. Obviously no issue there.

Another match is north America is time of Christ visit which happened in the First month (3NE 8:5)

During the destruction people were carried away never to be seen or heard of again.(3NE8:16)

16 And there were some who were carried away in the whirlwind; and whither they went no man knoweth, save they know that they were carried away.

That sounds like tornados to me.(meso America does not have Tornadoes). The first month of the Hebrew/Nephite calendar coincides with tornado season in the central plains of North America.

Edited July 3, 2015 by Tom m

[BookofMormonLuvr]

John Sorenson was completely wrong about the calendar that the Nephites used.

 

"Putting these two sets of information together, we see that the fighting season referred to in the annals of the wars in the books of Mosiah through Helaman—their months eleven through two—likely coincided approximately with November through February in our calendar. Moreover their new year's day is likely to have fallen near winter solstice (December 21/22), as with many other peoples of the ancient world.

First month began near our December 22.

Second month began near January 21.

Third month began near February 20.

Fourth month began near March 22.

Fifth month began near April 21.

Sixth month began near May 21.

Seventh month began near June 20.

Eighth month began near July 20.

Ninth month began near August 19

Tenth month began near September 18.

Eleventh month began near October 18.

Twelfth month began near November 17."

 

If this was correct that means the crucifixion of Christ visit would have happened in the Month of January (3NE 8:5). It is a known fact that the crucifixion happened in April or the first month of the Hebrew Calendar. Why he did not use the Hebrew calendar is a complete mystery. The only thing I can assume is that the dates mentioned in the Book of Mormon and the Roman calendar line up better in Meso America(dry season, harvest season).

 

The Hebrew calendar and the Nephite calendar match up perfectly in North America. The wars mentioned in the Book of Mormon happened mainly between the 2nd and 4th month. That's spring through summer in north America and wearing of the famous loin cloths by the Lamanites. I saw that there was one battle fought in the 11th month which is winter in the central plains of North America. The Book of Mormon states that the Lamanites wore "very thick garments" Alma 49:6. Obviously no issue there.

 

Another match is north America is time of Christ visit which happened in the First month (3NE 8:5)

During the destruction people were carried away never to be seen or heard of again.(3NE8:16)

 

16 And there were some who were carried away in the whirlwind; and whither they went no man knoweth, save they know that they were carried away.

 

That sounds like tornados to me.(meso America does not have Tornadoes). The first month of the Hebrew/Nephite calendar coincides with tornado season in the central plains of North America.

 

It is not to me.

With the complete rejection of the Law given to Moses, Christianity- including Mormonism- has lost it's attachment to the Hebrew Root of their faith. Thus they use pagan fertility celebrations to honor Messiah and forget to include a Hebrew understanding into their view of scripture. I don't think John purposefully neglected to consider that the Nephites were Law obedient Hebrews, it just never occurred to him, because of the modern rejection of the Law.

[Tom m]

It is not to me.

With the complete rejection of the Law given to Moses, Christianity- including Mormonism- has lost it's attachment to the Hebrew Root of their faith. Thus they use pagan fertility celebrations to honor Messiah and forget to include a Hebrew understanding into their view of scripture. I don't think John purposefully neglected to consider that the Nephites were Law obedient Hebrews, it just never occurred to him, because of the modern rejection of the Law.

Sorensen was just trying to prove the Central America model he was just looking in the wrong spot. It's amazing how the Book of Mormon and the North American natives artifacts, linguistics and culture match Hebrew culture and language. Edited July 3, 2015 by Tom m

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Sorensen was just trying to prove the Central America model he was just looking in the wrong spot. It's amazing how the Book of Mormon and the North American natives artifacts, linguistics and culture match Hebrew culture and language.

I agree. Jake Hilton is on my FB friend's list. But you won't find much sympathy from about anyone else here. They are very sold on Meso-America.

[ERayR]

Sorensen was just trying to prove the Central America model he was just looking in the wrong spot. It's amazing how the Book of Mormon and the North American natives artifacts, linguistics and culture match Hebrew culture and language.

 

I take it your testimony of the Book of Mormon hinges on artifacts and where they are found?

[carbon dioxide]

That sounds like tornados to me.(meso America does not have Tornadoes). The first month of the Hebrew/Nephite calendar coincides with tornado season in the central plains of North America.

Tornadoes occur in other parts of the world.  Also hurricanes would also apply and they have their own tornadoes as well.  I personally prefer Central America better than North America.  Lack of snow, no Arctic blasts which occasionally occur in the eastern US 20 plus below zero, no rivers freezing over, ect.   I believe if one was to get 100 random people to read the BOM text and asked where in the Western Hemisphere that the events described would have occurred, only a minority of people would say the eastern US.   To me the whole area just does not fit well.

Edited July 3, 2015 by carbon dioxide

[canard78]

Pass me the popcorn.

It's always entertaining to watch advocates of an historic Book of Mormon tell other adherents of the same that their evidence hokum.

[Calm]

If you quote something, you need to tell us its source.

[carbon dioxide]

Sorensen was just trying to prove the Central America model he was just looking in the wrong spot. It's amazing how the Book of Mormon and the North American natives artifacts, linguistics and culture match Hebrew culture and language.

Keep in mind the BOM does say that various groups broke away from the main Nephite group and traveled away to other places.  So if the BOM does occur in Central America, that does not prevent individuals or small groups of Nephites leaving for greener pastures and traveling to North or South America.  If they did that, they would bring their culture and stuff with them

[Tom m]

Here you go http://publications.maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=1110&index=49

 

If you quote something, you need to tell us its source.

Edited July 3, 2015 by Tom m

[Calm]

Please do a google search on "tornado" and "Guatemala". You will be able to see a large selection of YouTube videos documenting Mesoamerican tornadoes.

[Tom m]

Please do a google search on "tornado" and "Guatemala". You will be able to see a large selection of YouTube videos documenting Mesoamerican tornadoes.

That's laughable.

 

Google Tornado Alley in North America

Edited July 3, 2015 by Tom m

[carbon dioxide]

That's laughable.

 

Google Tornado Alley in North America

What is the point.  Yes more tornadoes do occur in the US BUT they also occur in other places in the world.  You are suggesting that if a tornado occurs, it can only be in the USA.  Therefore if the BOM mentions something that could be a tornado, that is evidence the BOM event occurred in the USA.  That however is simply flawed logic.  I even read about a tornado in Japan not too long ago.

Edited July 3, 2015 by carbon dioxide

[Tom m]

What is the point.  Yes more tornadoes do occur in the US BUT they also occur in other places in the world.  You are suggesting that if a tornado occurs, it can only be in the USA.  Therefore if the BOM mentions something that could be a tornado, that is evidence the BOM event occurred in the USA.  That however is simply flawed logic.  I even read about a tornado in Japan not too long ago.

Just wait I'm not done yet.

[Calm]

That's laughable.

 

Google Tornado Alley in North America

So you are claiming there are no tornadoes in Mesoamerica?

It was a noteworthy event so it doesn't sound like it occurred that frequently if your argument is based on which location gets hit more often.

[Tom m]

I take it your testimony of the Book of Mormon hinges on artifacts and where they are found?

In museums

[ERayR]

In museums

 

And what sets them apart as Nephite artifacts? 

 

Please tell me where I can find the great prophet Onandagus in the Book of Mormon?

[Tom m]

And what sets them apart as Nephite artifacts? 

 

Please tell me where I can find the great prophet Onandagus in the Book of Mormon?

Artifacts are from Hopewell Indians. As far Onandagus goes you will have to ask Joseph Smith he is the one had the vision not me.

[ERayR]

I take it your testimony of the Book of Mormon hinges on artifacts and where they are found?

 

In museums

 

Please read again, for comprehension.

[ERayR]

Artifacts are from Hopewell Indians. As far Onandagus goes you will have to ask Joseph Smith he is the one had the vision not me.

 

You are the one who asserted I could find it in the BoM

[carbon dioxide]

And what sets them apart as Nephite artifacts? 

 

Please tell me where I can find the great prophet Onandagus in the Book of Mormon?

Since a number of Nephites broke off and traveled away to other places that were not known to the Nephites, it is possible some traveled to North America and set up shop there.  Perhaps some had prophets among them to guide them while not being part of the BOM story. 

 

5 And it came to pass that Hagoth, he being an exceedingly curious man, therefore he went forth and built him an exceedingly large ship, on the borders of the land Bountiful, by the land Desolation, and launched it forth into the west sea, by the narrow neck which led into the land northward.

 

6 And behold, there were many of the Nephites who did enter therein and did sail forth with much provisions, and also many women and children; and they took their course northward. And thus ended the thirty and seventh year.

 

7 And in the thirty and eighth year, this man built other ships. And the first ship did also return, and many more people did enter into it; and they also took much provisions, and set out again to the land northward.

 

8 And it came to pass that they were never heard of more. And we suppose that they were drowned in the depths of the sea. And it came to pass that one other ship also did sail forth; and whither she did go we know not. (Alma 63:5-

 

We should have no problem with Nephites being in North America.  It is not a problem with the main premise that the BOM lands are in Central America.

Edited July 3, 2015 by carbon dioxide

[ERayR]

Since a number of Nephites broke off and traveled away to other places that were not known to the Nephites, it is possible some traveled to North America and set up shop there.  Perhaps some had prophets among them to guide them while not being part of the BOM story. 

 

5 And it came to pass that Hagoth, he being an exceedingly curious man, therefore he went forth and built him an exceedingly large ship, on the borders of the land Bountiful, by the land Desolation, and launched it forth into the west sea, by the narrow neck which led into the land northward.

 

6 And behold, there were many of the Nephites who did enter therein and did sail forth with much provisions, and also many women and children; and they took their course northward. And thus ended the thirty and seventh year.

 

7 And in the thirty and eighth year, this man built other ships. And the first ship did also return, and many more people did enter into it; and they also took much provisions, and set out again to the land northward.

 

8 And it came to pass that they were never heard of more. And we suppose that they were drowned in the depths of the sea. And it came to pass that one other ship also did sail forth; and whither she did go we know not. (Alma 63:5-

 

We should have no problem with Nephites being in North America.  It is not a problem with the main premise that the BOM lands are in Central America.

 

I am not disputing that.  In fact I am one who believes Hagoth's ships got a lot farther and to places you probably wouldn't believe and had more influence in the world than you might believe. 

 

What I am asking is how he classified his artifacts as Nephite?

[The Nehor]

Just wait I'm not done yet.

 

Please be done.

[carbon dioxide]

Just wait I'm not done yet.

The funny thing is that "Tornado alley" has tornadoes only a yearly basis.  Some years more than others.  There is no indication of the Nephites having to deal with tornadoes on a regular basis.  If anything this would be evidence against the assertion that the BOM lands was in the midwest or eastern US.  The "whirlwinds" was a fairly rare encounter they had with it. 

Edited July 4, 2015 by carbon dioxide

[Calm]

Yep. Notice how my post saying the same thing basically was ignored by Tom.

 

I've lived in Tornado Alley for a good part of my life.  We used to stand outside watching the sky turn green as kids and things getting picked up and throw around was not uncommon at all.  Right after we moved from Kansas a massive system came through where we had lived and some neigbours lost their home and about ten iirc people died in a close location.

Edited July 4, 2015 by calmoriah