Book Of Mormon Dna, Artifacts, Linguistic, Cultural, Evidence

[Hagoth]

The evidence is built on the presumption of the lack of Haplotype X in Asia--except that it has been found. 

That is correct. LDS geneticist Ugo Perego in an article in Current Biology summarizes his results: 

"Phylogeographic analyses at the highest level of molecular resolution (69 entire mitochondrial genomes) reveal that two almost concomitant paths of migration from Beringia led to the Paleo-Indian dispersal approximately 15–17 kya. Haplogroup D4h3 spread into the Americas along the Pacific coast, whereas X2a entered through the ice-free corridor between the Laurentide and Cordilleran ice sheets. The examination of an additional 276 entire mtDNA sequences provides similar entry times for all common Native American haplogroups, thus indicating at least a dual origin for Paleo-Indians."

As I understand it, although it is not nearly as common in East Asia as in the western extremities of Eurasia, the X group is nevertheless found there and it is assumed that the people bearing it migrated across the continent fairly quickly to Siberia, where the strongest indications are found among the Atlay people.

[rodheadlee]

What if both theories were true to some extent? Didn't many Nephites migrate north? on foot and by ship to (California, Arizona, Florida, Mississippi)?  What if Nephites migrated north, south and back to Europe? Also what if other peoples were sent by God to the new world and we don't have their book or story yet

[Alma 11:44]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sennacherib%27s_Annals

The Sennacherib Prism written by the King of Assyria says he had Jerusalem trapped like a bird in a cage

Psalm 124: Our soul is escaped as a bird out of the snare of the fowlers: the snare is broken, and we are escaped.

which was by Hezekiah who felt the same way.

can the Book of Mormon give that kind of evidence for it's existence ?

[Nevo]

can the Book of Mormon give that kind of evidence for it's existence ?

 

I don't think it needs to. The existence of the Book of Mormon is well established.

[Alma 11:44]

Prove that

[Hagoth]

I don't think it needs to. The existence of the Book of Mormon is well established.

Yes, it is. I have one on my shelf, right next to the Lord of the Rings. Now if there were some artifacts to back both of them up .

[The Nehor]

What if both theories were true to some extent? Didn't many Nephites migrate north? on foot and by ship to (California, Arizona, Florida, Mississippi)?  What if Nephites migrated north, south and back to Europe? Also what if other peoples were sent by God to the new world and we don't have their book or story yet

Doubtful, Nephite nation would have been vast.

 

I buy it about as much as this compromise theory:

 

[cinepro]

What if both theories were true to some extent? Didn't many Nephites migrate north? on foot and by ship to (California, Arizona, Florida, Mississippi)?  What if Nephites migrated north, south and back to Europe? Also what if other peoples were sent by God to the new world and we don't have their book or story yet

 

Well, the evidence for people being there outside of Book of Mormon times is pretty strong, so other people had to be "sent here by God" if we are to acknowledge their existence (although that isn't a given).

[The Nehor]

Yes, it is. I have one on my shelf, right next to the Lord of the Rings. Now if there were some artifacts to back both of them up .

 

The strange hot spots in the earth's crust are obviously balrogs, Atlantis was Numenor, orcs were the Visigoths, and the Hapsburgs were the unbroken line of Maia, Man, and Elf that came through Aragorn and Arwen.

 

It makes perfect sense if you think about it long enough.

[Calm]

Have you seen portraits of the Hapsburgs?.....I don't think so.

[The Nehor]

Have you seen portraits of the Hapsburgs?.....I don't think so.

 

Elven and Maia DNA is not immunity to the wonderful effects of inbreeding. Tolkien points this out in the Silmarillon.

[Hagoth]

Well, the evidence for people being there outside of Book of Mormon times is pretty strong, so other people had to be "sent here by God" if we are to acknowledge their existence (although that isn't a given).

I've always found it interesting that Nephi wrote detailed lists of the animals and plants they found upon arrival but didn't find it noteworthy that the land (which he had been led to believe had been kept from the knowledge of all other nations) was already heavily populated by Siberian-descended people. Yet the discoveries of Zarahemla and the Jaredites ruins were big news. But I am told the original inhabitants of the land are mentioned somewhere between the lines.

[The Nehor]

I've always found it interesting that Nephi wrote detailed lists of the animals and plants they found upon arrival but didn't find it noteworthy that the land (which he had been led to believe had been kept from the knowledge of all other nations) was already heavily populated by Siberian-descended people. Yet the discoveries of Zarahemla and the Jaredites ruins were big news. But I am told the original inhabitants of the land are mentioned somewhere between the lines.

 

That would actually be normal. It is amazing what sometimes is left out of written histories that would seem of extreme importance. Of course it was not a history. If there were others they would most likely get a section in the large plates that contained the history. The Mulekites and Jaredites are mentioned because their stories teach something of spiritual value. Perhaps the others did not.

 

If they were in the large plates then they may have made it into the abridgment Mormon wrote and really their being lost to history is Joseph Smith and Martin Harris's fault.

[Hagoth]

That would actually be normal. It is amazing what sometimes is left out of written histories that would seem of extreme importance. 

I'm racking my brain for examples. I'm trying to imagine how the stories of Columbus, Pizarro, Cortez, Jamestown, the Pilgrims, the Vinland Vikings, etc. would differ if they left out that particular detail. And pretty much anyone else who has ever made and intrusion into a place that was already populated.

[Tom m]

That is correct. LDS geneticist Ugo Perego in an article in Current Biology summarizes his results: 

"Phylogeographic analyses at the highest level of molecular resolution (69 entire mitochondrial genomes) reveal that two almost concomitant paths of migration from Beringia led to the Paleo-Indian dispersal approximately 15–17 kya. Haplogroup D4h3 spread into the Americas along the Pacific coast, whereas X2a entered through the ice-free corridor between the Laurentide and Cordilleran ice sheets. The examination of an additional 276 entire mtDNA sequences provides similar entry times for all common Native American haplogroups, thus indicating at least a dual origin for Paleo-Indians."

As I understand it, although it is not nearly as common in East Asia as in the western extremities of Eurasia, the X group is nevertheless found there and it is assumed that the people bearing it migrated across the continent fairly quickly to Siberia, where the strongest indications are found among the Atlay people.

 

Haplo group x is not found in east asia (Siberia).

[Hagoth]

Haplo group x is not found in east asia (Siberia).

Sorry Tom. I know you keep saying it but it just isn't true. All you have to do is look at current data from non-LDS-apologetic scientific sources. True, you will find quite recent sources (pre 2001ish) that say it has not been found in Siberia, but the great thing about science is that old ideas and claims lose their value when overridden by new information:

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_X_(mtDNA)

"In addition, these same (2001) researchers indicated that the mtDNA haplogroup X haplotype present in the Altaians of Siberia is intermediate between Native Americans clades and that of Europeans."

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1180497/

"Virtually all (97.2%) haplogroup X mtDNAs from the Near East, the South Caucasus, and Europe were found to belong to subhaplogroup X2, as did all (100%) of those from Siberia and Central Asia and some (36.8%) of those from North Africa (table 2)."

 

True, it is quite rare in Siberia (I believe there are only about 60,000 X-bearing Altaians remaining), and nearly absent elsewhere in East Asia, but I think we can all agree that it did not originate there. It came from the Near East and apparently passed through Asia, including Siberia, en route to the Americas via Beringia. If you have a problem with this I suggest you take it up with Dr. Perego, who is a believing Latter-Day Saint.

[Tom m]

Hagoth

I would like to point out a couple items in the research article you posted.

The research paper you posted stated that haplo group x found in the altains is not related to haplo grope x found in North American Indians.

"Third, the few Altaian (Derenko et al. 2001) and Siberian hap- logroup X lineages are not related to the Native Amer- ican cluster, and they are more likely explained by recent gene flow from Europe or from West Asia. "

Also the haplo group x is recent and its estimated arrival in the altains is long after the Bering ice bridge would have not been cross able.

"Therefore, under the assumption that these sequences are a random sample of the Altaian haplogroup X, an estimated r value !0.33 (P ! .05) was obtained. This value corresponds to a time depth of !6,700 years (Forster et al. 1996), and it would suggest that Altaians have acquired haplogroup X2 only relatively recently. "

So I still standby the original thesis. Also you have not accounted for the Hebrew customs, language and the technologies that North American natives and Hopewell Indians have and had. These examples support the Book of Mormon and trans ocean crossing to North America. Lehi most likely landing in the Florida Panhandle region. The flow of hurricanes from Africa to Florida support this as well archeological evidence found in the Florida Panhandle see Crystal River Hopewell Indians.

That was a good point bring up though, Hagoth thank you.

Edited July 3, 2015 by Tom m

[Hagoth]

But your statement was that X has not been found in Siberia.

 

How do you explain the presence of haplogroup X in Kennewick Man, who was in North America thousands of years before BoM times? You have said before that he was Caucasian. He was actually at first assumed to be Polynesian but is now understood to be consistent with the earliest known American remains (e.g. Eva of Naharon) 

 

But even if he was Caucasian (he wasn't) and did sail to America in a ship from the Middle East (absolutely no way to prove that), he arrived 5000 years too early.Not only does he not descend from Jared or Lehi, he predates Adam by a long stretch.

[canard78]

So you think it would have been easier for God to made arrangements for the Restoration to have occurred in Mesoamerica, Joseph Smith to have been born there, etc?

I know of one LDS individual who believes the plates, etc. were buried at their resting place not that long before Joseph Smith uncovered them by the resurrected Moroni. If so, Moroni wouldn't have spent much time carrying them after all...assuming there were other ways for a resurrected Moroni to bring them north besides walking with them there.

Presumably angels can transport golden plates and anything else.

Besides, if Moroni could confiscate the plates from Joseph for a while and then return them later then they didn't even need to be buried anywhere for 2000 years.

[canard78]

"Hagoth" discussing North American BoM evidence with "Tom."

Am I on the right forum. De ja vu!

[Tom m]

But your statement was that X has not been found in Siberia.

 

How do you explain the presence of haplogroup X in Kennewick Man, who was in North America thousands of years before BoM times? You have said before that he was Caucasian. He was actually at first assumed to be Polynesian but is now understood to be consistent with the earliest known American remains (e.g. Eva of Naharon) 

 

But even if he was Caucasian (he wasn't) and did sail to America in a ship from the Middle East (absolutely no way to prove that), he arrived 5000 years too early.Not only does he not descend from Jared or Lehi, he predates Adam by a long stretch.

How do you explain Hebrew customs, language, culture and technology in North America.

[Calm]

Tom, you need to space your threads out moreor you may find yourself on limited status based on how mods have reacted to mass thread posting in the past....maybe focus on three active ones at a time.

Just a suggestion.

[Hagoth]

How do you explain Hebrew customs, language, culture and technology in North America.

I will refer you to the statements above that have been made by people more knowledgeable than myself. There's not much more that I could add.

[Brant Gardner]

Haplo group x is not found in east asia (Siberia).

That is a remarkable assertion in counter to a geneticist who does that kind of work who indicated otherwise in the quotation to which you gave just this statement.

What Perego said was that it was not as common in the east, but it has been found there and that its path to the New World is traced across the land bridge.

On what basis do you suggest that Perego and other geneticists are mistaken?

[Tom m]

That is a remarkable assertion in counter to a geneticist who does that kind of work who indicated otherwise in the quotation to which you gave just this statement.

What Perego said was that it was not as common in the east, but it has been found there and that its path to the New World is traced across the land bridge.

On what basis do you suggest that Perego and other geneticists are mistaken?

The absence of Haplo group x dna in Siberia, Alaska,  central america and south America and the largest concentration found in the east coast of America. The haplo group x dna found in the Altains is not related to the American Indian haplo group x. The theory of world migration is to follow along the coast line there is nor match for this.

 

Also the Hopewell Indians had a advanced metallurgy and woven cloth that dates to biblical times. A Bering land bridge crossing predates these technologies.

 

"Third, the few Altaian (Derenko et al. 2001) and Siberian hap- logroup X lineages are not related to the Native Amer- ican cluster, and they are more likely explained by recent gene flow from Europe or from West Asia. "

Also the haplo group x is recent and its estimated arrival in the altains is long after the Bering ice bridge would have not been cross able.

 

"Therefore, under the assumption that these sequences are a random sample of the Altaian haplogroup X, an estimated r value !0.33 (P ! .05) was obtained. This value corresponds to a time depth of !6,700 years (Forster et al. 1996), and it would suggest that Altaians have acquired haplogroup X2 only relatively recently. "

Edited July 3, 2015 by Tom m