The Nature And Relationship Of God And Creation

[danielwoods]

Who created God?

The LDS and the traditional Christian view answers this question differently.

For the LDS all spirits are eternal (having no beginning or end). God being included in that group of spirits.

For the traditional Christian view, only God alone is eternally existing. Having no beginning or end.

[Calm]

No.

Where does it state that matter pre-existed God?

LDS do not believe matter existed before God existed.

[Vance]

No.

Where does it state that matter pre-existed God?

That is NOT an answer to the question.  Why are you avoiding the question?

[Robert F. Smith]

Okay, but according to orthodox evangelical teaching Jesus was not a "Him" [male entity] before all creation. God [All 3 persons of the western metaphysical/ontiological trinity was/is/will be genderless]. So one of the Salvation/Soteriological requirements for Salvation is to adhere to creation ex nihilo to be saved into the Kingdom of Heaven. Humm did not see that memo in The Holy Bible - He [actualy genderless] only left you basic instructions before leaving earth. Check.

May True Grace be with you and those that you love.

 

In His Etrernal Debt/Grace

            Anakin7

Yes.  This is also the normative dogma of Islam, which says that "God does not beget, and is not begotten."  No anthrpomorphisms are to be taken literally.  However, this is all the heritage of Platonic Greek philosophical and religious norms.  Not of the Bible.

 

McClellan, Daniel O., "'You Will Be Like the Gods': The Conceptualization of Deity in the Hebrew Bible in Cognitive Perspective," master’s thesis (Trinity Western Univ., Nov 2013).  Online at https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6259597/You%20Will%20Be%20Like%20the%20Gods.pdf ,

Samuelson, Norbert, "That the God of the Philosophers is not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob." Harvard Theological Review, 65 (1972):1-27.

 

Jewish scholar Yohanan Muffs insists that "[T]he biblical God is anthropomorphic.  Whoever strips God of his personal quality distorts the true meaning of Scripture."^[1]

^[1] Muffs, Bible Review, 18/6 (Dec 2002):23; cf. Ronald Hendel, AAniconism and Anthropomorphism in Ancient Israel,@ in K. van der Toorn, ed., The Image and the Book (Leuven: Peeters, 1997), 205-228; Benjamin Sommer, The Bodies of God and the World of Ancient Israel (Cambridge University Press, 2009); Esther J. Hamori, "When Gods Were Men": The Embodied God in Biblical and Near Eastern Literature (de Gruyter, 2008), reviewed in RBL, Feb 2012, online at http://www.bookreviews.org/bookdetail.asp?TitleId=8190 .

[danielwoods]

LDS do not believe matter existed before God existed.

 

Now I am confused. I've heard on this board many times that God didn't create matter, but that it already existed. That what God did was simply molded or shaped the matter (to create) into what we see today. 

 

If matter didn't pre-exist God, in your view, where did it come from? 

[pogi]

No.

 

Good, we can both agree then that man (Gen 2:7) and all the animals and birds, etc. (Gen 2:19) were created, or "formed" from pre-existing matter. 

 

We can then understand that the word "create" does not imply "out of nothing", right?  

 

Is it possible then, from a literal reading of scripture, that God created, or "formed" (Isaiah 45:18) the heavens and earth the same way that he created or "formed" man, from pre-existing matter (matter which did not-pre-exist God)?

Edited September 28, 2015 by pogi

[danielwoods]

Good, we can both agree then that man (Gen 2:7) and all the animals and birds, etc. (Gen 2:19) were created, or "formed" from pre-existing matter.

We can then understand that the word "create" does not imply "out of nothing", right?

Is it possible then, from a literal reading of scripture, that God created, or "formed" (Isaiah 45:18) the heavens and earth the same way that he created or "formed" man, from pre-existing matter (matter which did not-pre-exist God)?

Why would matter be excluded from the things that God brought into existence?

The context of the usage of the word tells us man and animals were created by God using the dust of the ground. The same is not said about stars or the Earth or the sun. The implication is there and other places that it was from God alone, not anything that pre-existed God.

[Calm]

Matter is coeternal with God.

[danielwoods]

Matter is coeternal with God.

Ok thank you.

[Vance]

Daniel,

 

The Hebrew word that is translated to "created" in English is found here,

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H1254&t=KJV

 

Notice that it doesn't express or imply that action is done from nothing.

 

The meaning and usage goes along with this word in the creation story.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H914&t=KJV

 

Both work very well with and could be replaced by the word "organize".  After all, what is organizing but dividing or cutting things into sets?

Edited September 29, 2015 by Vance

[danielwoods]

Daniel,

 

The Hebrew word that is translated to "created" in English is found here,

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H1254&t=KJV

 

Notice that it doesn't express or imply that action is done from nothing.

 

The meaning and usage goes along with this word in the creation story.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H914&t=KJV

 

Both work very well with and could be replaced by the word "organize".  After all, what is organizing but dividing or cutting things into sets?

 

Where in the biblical text does it ever acknowledge or teach that matter or anything is co-eternal with God?

[Vance]

Speaking of wisdom, the Bible says,

 

  23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

  24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

  25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

  26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.

  27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:

  28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:

  29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:

  30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

[Vance]

Where in the biblical text does it ever acknowledge or teach that matter or anything is co-eternal with God?

Where does it acknowledge or teach that matter is not co-eternal with God?

[danielwoods]

Where does it acknowledge or teach that matter is not co-eternal with God?

 

Maybe you missed where I posted this on the last page:

 

Colosisian 1:16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

 

 

If all things have been created through him, then all matter didn't exist until he created it

 

 

Romans 11:35 “Who has ever given to God,

that God should repay them?”

36 For from him and through him and for him are all things.

To him be the glory forever! Amen.

 

 

If matter or anything was co-eternal with God, then this statement would be false. God would have an obligation to that thing, whether it's matter or spirit. But, here it states it plainly, "From him are all things."

[Vance]

Maybe you missed where I posted this on the last page:

 

Colosisian 1:16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

 

 

If all things have been created through him, then all matter didn't exist until he created it

 

 

This is a classic example of stripping a verse out of context.

 

This verse written by Paul should be understood as Paul or one of his audience would understand it.  Did they know anything about atoms, protons, electrons or neutrons?   No.  So was he talking about such things?  No. 

 

So, clearly, for you to attempt to extent this verse to cover such things is a grievous misuse of the text.

 

Romans 11:35 “Who has ever given to God,

that God should repay them?”

36 For from him and through him and for him are all things.

To him be the glory forever! Amen.

 

The same goes for this verse.

 

If matter or anything was co-eternal with God, then this statement would be false.

No, it wouldn't be false.  It would just be YOU stripping it from its context.

 

 God would have an obligation to that thing, whether it's matter or spirit.

A statement of gibberish.

 

 But, here it states it plainly, "From him are all things."

As understood by the author.  Not as understood by you.

[danielwoods]

This is a classic example of stripping a verse out of context.

 

This verse written by Paul should be understood as Paul or one of his audience would understand it.  Did they know anything about atoms, protons, electrons or neutrons?   No.  So was he talking about such things?  No. 

 

So, clearly, for you to attempt to extent this verse to cover such things is a grievous misuse of the text.

 

 

 

 

The same goes for this verse.

 

 

 

No, it wouldn't be false.  It would just be YOU stripping it from its context.

 

 

 

A statement of gibberish.

 

 

 

As understood by the author.  Not as understood by you.

 

And so how do you understand this statement? "From him are all things."

 

Where is "matter" excluded from the statement of "all things"? Does it actually mean all things except something like matter and spirits? And if it means that, why doesn't it say that? Why does it say "From him are all things."?

[Robert F. Smith]

Where in the biblical text does it ever acknowledge or teach that matter or anything is co-eternal with God?

The grammar of Genesis 1:1-3 establishes the absence of creation from nothing, as is also the case in the Babylonian Creation Story in Enuma elish.  In both cases, the grammar requires creation from preexisting material in a state of chaos.

 

People sometimes find it hard to wrench themselves from the established Jewish-Christian-Muslim dogma of creatio ex nihilo, but the biblical text requires preexisting, coeternal matter.  See the discussion of Ephraim Speiser, Genesis, Anchor Bible 1 (Doubleday, 1964), 5 (note 2),9-13.

[Robert F. Smith]

Maybe you missed where I posted this on the last page:

 

Colosisian 1:16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

 

 

If all things have been created through him, then all matter didn't exist until he created it

 

 

Romans 11:35 “Who has ever given to God,

that God should repay them?”

36 For from him and through him and for him are all things.

To him be the glory forever! Amen.

 

 

If matter or anything was co-eternal with God, then this statement would be false. God would have an obligation to that thing, whether it's matter or spirit. But, here it states it plainly, "From him are all things."

In each case, the reference is to created things, since chaos preceded the "things," and He is before all created things.  Chaos does not equal "things."  They must be defined and recognizable to be "things."

[Vance]

And so how do you understand this statement? "From him are all things."

 

Where is "matter" excluded from the statement of "all things"? Does it actually mean all things except something like matter and spirits? And if it means that, why doesn't it say that? Why does it say "From him are all things."?

"Things" are made of matter.  To acknowledge that all "things" come from Him or are made by Him doesn't require creation ex nihilo.  Matter is not a "thing" but rather that which "things" are made of.

Edited October 1, 2015 by Vance

[danielwoods]

The grammar of Genesis 1:1-3 establishes the absence of creation from nothing, as is also the case in the Babylonian Creation Story in Enuma elish.  In both cases, the grammar requires creation from preexisting material in a state of chaos.

 

People sometimes find it hard to wrench themselves from the established Jewish-Christian-Muslim dogma of creatio ex nihilo, but the biblical text requires preexisting, coeternal matter.  See the discussion of Ephraim Speiser, Genesis, Anchor Bible 1 (Doubleday, 1964), 5 (note 2),9-13.

In each case, the reference is to created things, since chaos preceded the "things," and He is before all created things.  Chaos does not equal "things."  They must be defined and recognizable to be "things."

 

Gen. 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

 

A couple of observations:

 

1) The context doesn't require creation from preexisting material, actually the opposite. God is the only thing existing "In the beginning God..." 

 

2) All of heaven and earth were created at the same time, in the beginning. The phrase is used to say "everything!" because there was nothing outside of the heavens and Earth.

 

3) No mention of Chaos here either. Seems that it had no form (mountains and valleys) and was empty of animals and plants and humans, because that would come later. But, certainly is not described as chaos, empty is not chaos, empty is empty. 

 

4) "Waters" isn't mentioned as a chaotic term, and it was created at the same time as, "heaven and the earth." We know this because water is mentioned next as simply "water." Not chaotic water, or anything to indicate chaos at all. Simply empty, as in devoid of fish and plants. 

 

Conclusion. Chaos didn't precede created things. 

 

[danielwoods]

"Things" are made of matter.  To acknowledge that all "things" come from Him or are made by Him doesn't require creation ex nihilo.  Matter is not a "thing" but rather that which "things" are made of.

 

Matter is not a thing? 

 

What form did this "matter not a thing" take? Can we see any of it today? 

[Robert F. Smith]

 

Gen. 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

 

A couple of observations:

 

1) The context doesn't require creation from preexisting material, actually the opposite. God is the only thing existing "In the beginning God..." 

 

2) All of heaven and earth were created at the same time, in the beginning. The phrase is used to say "everything!" because there was nothing outside of the heavens and Earth.

 

3) No mention of Chaos here either. Seems that it had no form (mountains and valleys) and was empty of animals and plants and humans, because that would come later. But, certainly is not described as chaos, empty is not chaos, empty is empty. 

 

4) "Waters" isn't mentioned as a chaotic term, and it was created at the same time as, "heaven and the earth." We know this because water is mentioned next as simply "water." Not chaotic water, or anything to indicate chaos at all. Simply empty, as in devoid of fish and plants. 

 

Conclusion. Chaos didn't precede created things. 

 

Since you didn't bother to read the citation to Ephraim Speiser I provided for you, and because you didn't read the King Follett Funeral Sermon of Joseph Smith, you have no idea what you are talking about.  The KJV translation is not an accurate translation of the Hebrew of Gen 1:1-3, thus making your conclusions meaningless.  When you understand the grammar, you can see the stasis which precedes any act of creation.  Virtually all Hebrew scholars today agree on that grammatical sequence of circumstantial clauses, ending in a creative act:

 

When the Gods set about to create heaven and earth -- the world then being a formless waste, with darkness over the seas, and only the Spirit of the Gods sweeping over the water -- the Gods said, "Let there be light."

 

The Babylonian Creation account, Enuma elish, follows the very same grammatical syntax, and even the same order of creative acts which follow.

[danielwoods]

Since you didn't bother to read the citation to Ephraim Speiser I provided for you, and because you didn't read the King Follett Funeral Sermon of Joseph Smith, you have no idea what you are talking about. The KJV translation is not an accurate translation of the Hebrew of Gen 1:1-3, thus making your conclusions meaningless. When you understand the grammar, you can see the stasis which precedes any act of creation. Virtually all Hebrew scholars today agree on that grammatical sequence of circumstantial clauses, ending in a creative act:

When the Gods set about to create heaven and earth -- the world then being a formless waste, with darkness over the seas, and only the Spirit of the Gods sweeping over the water -- the Gods said, "Let there be light."

The Babylonian Creation account, Enuma elish, follows the very same grammatical syntax, and even the same order of creative acts which follow.

Your claim isn't supported by the facts. No where is "chaos" indicated as being the state of matter, ever. Not prior to creation, not during creation, and not after creation.

Even your quote above uses the same terminology as the Bible, which instead of chaos it was empty and formless.

And if we are to believe Joesph Smith, then why argue about syntax and words, if it's not really reliable?

[stephenpurdy]

Your claim isn't supported by the facts. No where is "chaos" indicated as being the state of matter, ever. Not prior to creation, not during creation, and not after creation.

Even your quote above uses the same terminology as the Bible, which instead of chaos it was empty and formless.

And if we are to believe Joesph Smith, then why argue about syntax and words, if it's not really reliable?

 

The point is that even if you DO rely on the text, it says that when God said "Let there be light", the "deep" was already there.  The Earth was already there but it was a "wasteland" which was "without form".

 

I go into extreme detail on Genesis 1:1 in these two videos.  You will see that the Original Hebrew does NOT say, "In the Beginning, God created the Heavens and the Earth."  Many , many non-LDS Biblical scholars have confirmed this.  And other passages within the Bible itself confirm that this is not what Genesis 1:1 is saying:

 

 

 

-Stephen

Edited October 2, 2015 by stephenpurdy

[danielwoods]

The point is that even if you DO rely on the text, it says that when God said "Let there be light", the "deep" was already there.  The Earth was already there but it was a "wasteland" which was "without form".

 

I go into extreme detail on Genesis 1:1 in these two videos.  You will see that the Original Hebrew does NOT say, "In the Beginning, God created the Heavens and the Earth."  Many , many non-LDS Biblical scholars have confirmed this.  And other passages within the Bible itself confirm that this is not what Genesis 1:1 is saying:

 

 

-Stephen

 

The point is, if we rely on Joseph Smith what's the point of discussing context, words, tenses, etc.? 

 

I know I rely on the text. Which is why I defend my position using the text, and it's context, and tenses, etc., but it's also not persuasive to those who rely on Joseph Smith, because they don't rely on the text. At the end of many of these discussions I have seen LDS say, "oh well, we have a prophet and modern revelation and you don't, so we know the truth..." or something to that effect. 

So at the very least, my goal is to point out that the doctrines taught by the LDS are not the same as those taught in the Bible.

 

Re: your video arguments. As near as I can decipher (because your videos are difficult to follow and you don't post a transcript) your argument appears to be that when God began to create, the Earth already existed. You appear to base this off of the Common English Bible (CEB) translation.

Which states: "1 When God began to create[a] the heavens and the earth— 2 the earth was without shape or form..." (the text note says, "Or In the beginning, God created.")

And you use the Young's Literal Translation (YLT) which states: "1 In the beginning of God's preparing the heavens and the earth --

2 the earth hath existed waste and void..."

So, this is the claim. That the Earth already existed. What about the Heavens? Remember, the Heavens and the Earth are said to be created at the same time. Further, it should be noted that to an ancient mind, all that existed (besides God), was "the heavens and the Earth". So, to say this phrase "the heavens and the Earth", is to say, "all that exists..." was created by God.

A couple of observations.

1) The text doesn't indicate any sort of "pre-creation" material. No mention or description of anything material previous to this.

2) The word's used for "create" has a common usage which is to "shape" or "form" out of some material already existing. However, Gen. 1 isn't a common context. This was creation week. It happened only once, making the argument about the common usage of the words, not applicable.

3) Many other passages do not support the idea that the Earth or material is eternal with God.

Let's look at John 1 as one example and since you like the CEB:

"1 In the beginning was the Word

and the Word was with God

and the Word was God.

2 The Word was with God in the beginning.

3 Everything came into being through the Word,

and without the Word

nothing came into being."

Notice that nothing came into being without the Word. Who of course is Jesus. This agrees with the other passages I've quoted previously. All things came into being through him. It doesn't say in the beginning was material stuff, and God, but it states that only God alone existed in the beginning.