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The Nature And Relationship Of God And Creation

stephenpurdy

By stephenpurdy
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stephenpurdy Rising Star

stephenpurdy

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Knowing God is perfectly good, omniscient and perfectly loving, what good do you believe he thought would be accomplish by creating beings with physical bodies?

 

 

Daniel wrote:  Not sure. We are both spirit and body. There are many possibilities, he choose this one. It's interesting to speculate, but what remains is we are how he intended us to be.  

 

 

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - --

 

I think the point that Bobbie was getting to here was this:

 

If it is superior to be "only spirit", like you claim God the Father is, then why would God condemn us to have a physical body?  Indeed, why would God condemn his begotten Son to this 'inferior' existence?

 

-Stephen

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danielwoods Grand Master

danielwoods

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Daniel wrote:  Not sure. We are both spirit and body. There are many possibilities, he choose this one. It's interesting to speculate, but what remains is we are how he intended us to be.  

 

 

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - --

 

I think the point that Bobbie was getting to here was this:

 

If it is superior to be "only spirit", like you claim God the Father is, then why would God condemn us to have a physical body?  Indeed, why would God condemn his begotten Son to this 'inferior' existence?

 

-Stephen

 

 

The claim that Got the father is only spirit is not based on his superiority, but what is revealed about his nature in the Biblical text. 

Both Jesus and God the father (and the Spirit) are equal in superiority to all else that was created, so clearly the physical body of Jesus has no ill-effects on his superiority or not. Nor would I describe it as "condemning" him to have a physical body. 

 

What is often missed in this discussion, is that the God revealed in the Bible has and is aware of all views at the same time. Every single atom in the Universe is apart of his awareness, at the same time. So, for someone to claim that having a body or not having a body for a being like that is either an advantage or not, is not talking about the God described in the Bible, at least in my view. 

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stephenpurdy Rising Star

stephenpurdy

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The claim that Got the father is only spirit is not based on his superiority, but what is revealed about his nature in the Biblical text. 

 

The claim that God is "only spirit" is based on a misuse of John 4:24.

 

With that kind of interpretation of John's gospel, you would also have to conclude that any person who is baptized and born again, suddenly becomes "only spirit" as well. 

 

This is classic taking verses out of context while ignoring how the language is used elsewhere in the text.  Anybody trained in interpretation knows that this is bad use of the text.

 

 

 

Both Jesus and God the father (and the Spirit) are equal in superiority to all else that was created, so clearly the physical body of Jesus has no ill-effects on his superiority or not.

 

 

I'm glad you feel that way.  After all, Col 2:9 reads

 

"For in Christ all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form."

 

However, if God must be, as you claim, literally omnipresent in the essence of His nature ... then how can the "fullness of Deity" dwell in a body?  How can you claim that Jesus Christ is "fully God" if he does not possess all of the characteristics of God?  Hebrews 1 is quite explicit about Jesus Christ being an exact imprint/copy/duplicate of the Father's person/being/substance.

 

If you have seen Christ, then you have seen the Father.  Not that they are the same person.  It is very clear that they are not the same person.  But instead, Christ reveals exactly what kind of Being the Father is.

 

 

 

What is often missed in this discussion, is that the God revealed in the Bible has and is aware of all views at the same time. Every single atom in the Universe is apart of his awareness, at the same time. So, for someone to claim that having a body or not having a body for a being like that is either an advantage or not, is not talking about the God described in the Bible, at least in my view. 

 

As we discussed, I am not sure that your view reflects the God described in the Bible.

 

In fact, you never really addressed the papers that were provided in the very first post of this thread:

 

THE LOGIC OF BIBLICAL ANTHROPOMORPHISM

In the Harvard Theological Review (Vol. 55, 1962)

 

http://www.philosoph...logic-bible.htm

 

 

This was followed up by another article, also written by Cherbonnier: 

In Defense of Anthropomorphism

http://rsc.byu.edu/a...nthropomorphism

 

 

-Stephen

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Anakin7 Veteran

Anakin7

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    Stephan do not forget to link to LDS David Paulsens articles In non LDS Scholarly publications - Early Christian Beliefs in a Corporeal Diety - Augustine and origin as reluctant witnesses - HarvardTheological Review and Must God Be incorporeal - Faith and Philosophy.

 

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

             Anakin7

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danielwoods Grand Master

danielwoods

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The claim that God is "only spirit" is based on a misuse of John 4:24.

 

With that kind of interpretation of John's gospel, you would also have to conclude that any person who is baptized and born again, suddenly becomes "only spirit" as well. 

 

This is classic taking verses out of context while ignoring how the language is used elsewhere in the text.  Anybody trained in interpretation knows that this is bad use of the text.

 

 

 

I'm glad you feel that way.  After all, Col 2:9 reads

 

"For in Christ all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form."

 

However, if God must be, as you claim, literally omnipresent in the essence of His nature ... then how can the "fullness of Deity" dwell in a body?  How can you claim that Jesus Christ is "fully God" if he does not possess all of the characteristics of God?  Hebrews 1 is quite explicit about Jesus Christ being an exact imprint/copy/duplicate of the Father's person/being/substance.

 

If you have seen Christ, then you have seen the Father.  Not that they are the same person.  It is very clear that they are not the same person.  But instead, Christ reveals exactly what kind of Being the Father is.

 

 

As we discussed, I am not sure that your view reflects the God described in the Bible.

How can the fullness of Deity dwell in a body? 

 

There is one thing that is certain, I won't ever be able to answer this question. Why? Well, to start with, what is the fullness of Deity? How could one define something that one can't see/taste/feel? And even if we can see or feel part of God's fullness, it would be presumptuous to think that we are able to describe it fully. 

 

Second. How does anything dwell in a body? We believe we are Spirit inside a body, yet we can't even determine how that works, and that's inside of us! 

 

The best answer I can come up with is that the attributes that we can see and interact with are those that we are to understand as being Deity. The fruits of the Spirit are one example of such a view. 

 

In fact, you never really addressed the papers that were provided in the very first post of this thread:

 

THE LOGIC OF BIBLICAL ANTHROPOMORPHISM

In the Harvard Theological Review (Vol. 55, 1962)

 

http://www.philosoph...logic-bible.htm

 

 

This was followed up by another article, also written by Cherbonnier: 

In Defense of Anthropomorphism

http://rsc.byu.edu/a...nthropomorphism

 

 

-Stephen

I do believe I responded to those concepts. I don't debate links because it's a largely a waste of time, because the writer isn't here to defend or discuss them. If you'd like to discuss the points you are persuaded by we can do that, again. 

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Anakin7 Veteran

Anakin7

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    LDS adhere to a Anchient GOD of Abraham/Issac/Jacob/Peter/James/John and all the a True Hebrews/Israelites/Saints/Christians of The O.T/N.T.  No God of The theologians/philosophers that promote aristotalism/platoism/docetism/gnostocism of the intelectualism house. Not in our True Kingdom Mansion.

 

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

             Anakin7

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danielwoods Grand Master

danielwoods

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    LDS adhere to a Anchient GOD of Abraham/Issac/Jacob/Peter/James/John and all the a True Hebrews/Israelites/Saints/Christians of The O.T/N.T.  No God of The theologians/philosophers that promote aristotalism/platoism/docetism/gnostocism of the intelectualism house. Not in our True Kingdom Mansion.

 

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

             Anakin7

 

It's a nice claim. But, when the rubber hits the road the LDS view doesn't agree that "all things were created by him...", rather, they believe that some things pre-existed God. So, it's a nice sounding statement you've made, but when one look at the details, it's not accurate. 

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Anakin7 Veteran

Anakin7

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    For some reason I do not believe you understood my statement post in #557. And ... is this a True Salvation Soteriological Doctrine that one must believe to be Saved into The True Kingdom of Heaven ?. What does Athens hath to do with Jerusalem ?.

 

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

             Anakin7

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danielwoods Grand Master

danielwoods

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    For some reason I do not believe you understood my statement post in #557. And ... is this a True Salvation Soteriological Doctrine that one must believe to be Saved into The True Kingdom of Heaven ?. What does Athens hath to do with Jerusalem ?.

 

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

             Anakin7

 

I was responding to this claim: "LDS adhere to a Anchient GOD of Abraham/Issac/Jacob/Peter/James/John..."

 

If this was true, then the LDS would believe that nothing was pre-existent, and that "all things were created by him..."

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Anakin7 Veteran

Anakin7

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Okay, but according to orthodox evangelical teaching Jesus was not a "Him" [male entity] before all creation. God [All 3 persons of the western metaphysical/ontiological trinity was/is/will be genderless]. So one of the Salvation/Soteriological requirements for Salvation is to adhere to creation ex nihilo to be saved into the Kingdom of Heaven. Humm did not see that memo in The Holy Bible - He [actualy genderless] only left you basic instructions before leaving earth. Check.

May True Grace be with you and those that you love.

 

In His Etrernal Debt/Grace

            Anakin7

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Anakin7 Veteran

Anakin7

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Some observations on creation ex nihilo from non LDS  -    http://thomasjayoord.com/index.php/blog/archives/a_new_doctrine_of_initial_creation_-_1    http://homebrewedchristianity.com/2012/05/21/creation-out-of-nothing-is-overrated-for-tony-jones/   http://formerfundy.blogspot.com/2010/05/have-jews-always-believed-in-creation.html

 

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

              Anakin7

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danielwoods Grand Master

danielwoods

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Okay, but according to orthodox evangelical teaching Jesus was not a "Him" [male entity] before all creation. God [All 3 persons of the western metaphysical/ontiological trinitywas/is/will be genderless]. So one of the Salvation/Soteriological requirements for Salvation is to adhere to creation ex nihilo to be saved into the Kingdom of Heaven. Humm did not see that memo in The Holy Bible - He [actualy genderless] only left you basic instructions before leaving earth. Check.

May True Grace be with you and those that you love.

In His Etrernal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

I was referencing a specific contradiction between the LDS view and what is taught in the Bible. I didn't say one had to believe in ex nihilo or anything to be saved. As I have said in the past, God has a lot of grace for error.

Your claim was that the LDS believe in the same God, yet this contradiction stands as a testimony against the claim.

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Anakin7 Veteran

Anakin7

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LDS Believe and have True Faith in the True and Living OT/NT Hebraic/Israelite form/model of GOD, not the one created/produced by the Philosophers/Theologians/middle neo platonics gnostics and there form/model. What hath Athens to do with Jerusalem ?.

May True Grace be with you and those you love.

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

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stephenpurdy Rising Star

stephenpurdy

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It's a nice claim. But, when the rubber hits the road the LDS view doesn't agree that "all things were created by him...", rather, they believe that some things pre-existed God. So, it's a nice sounding statement you've made, but when one look at the details, it's not accurate. 

 

 

As we have previously discussed, we believe that everything you see in the Universe was created by God.  However, you insist that "all things" must be created "ex nihilo". 

 

You are demanding something from the text which was not being addressed and you are taking such an extreme interpretation of the text as to make it illogical and contrary to how language is used elsewhere in the text. 

 

Take this text for example: 

 

"The whole Judean countryside and all the people of Jerusalem were flocking to him, and they were baptized by him in the Jordan River as they confessed their sins." (Mark 1:5)

 

Tell me Daniel, does this text mean that the rocks, dirt, buildings, animals, trees, (ie everything that makes up the Judean country) flock to the baptist?

 

Was literally every single person (all of the people of Jerusalem) baptized by John?

 

I specifically addressed those issues here

 

 

-Stephen

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danielwoods Grand Master

danielwoods

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As we have previously discussed, we believe that everything you see in the Universe was created by God.  However, you insist that "all things" must be created "ex nihilo". 

 

You are demanding something from the text which was not being addressed and you are taking such an extreme interpretation of the text as to make it illogical and contrary to how language is used elsewhere in the text. 

 

Take this text for example: 

 

"The whole Judean countryside and all the people of Jerusalem were flocking to him, and they were baptized by him in the Jordan River as they confessed their sins." (Mark 1:5)

 

Tell me Daniel, does this text mean that the rocks, dirt, buildings, animals, trees, (ie everything that makes up the Judean country) flock to the baptist?

 

Was literally every single person (all of the people of Jerusalem) baptized by John?

 

I specifically addressed those issues here

 

 

 

-Stephen

 

I believe what is stated in the biblical text, that all things were created by him and for him, and nothing pre-existed God. The LDS do not believe this. 

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danielwoods Grand Master

danielwoods

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CFR for the underlined part.

 

Isiah 66:1 This is what the Lord says:

“Heaven is my throne,

    and the earth is my footstool.

Where is the house you will build for me?

    Where will my resting place be?

2 Has not my hand made all these things,

    and so they came into being?”

declares the Lord.

 

If the Lord caused them to come into being, then they didn't exist before. 

 

 

 

Colosisian 1:16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

If all things have been created through him, then all matter didn't exist before he created it

Romans 11:35 “Who has ever given to God,

that God should repay them?”

36 For from him and through him and for him are all things.

To him be the glory forever! Amen.

If matter or anything pre-existed God, then this statement would be false. God would have an obligation to that pre-existent thing, whether it's matter or spirit. But, here it states it plainly, "From him are all things."

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pogi Grand Master

pogi

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 If the Lord caused them to come into being, then they didn't exist before.

 

I could say the same thing about the cabin that I built with my family.  It is true the earth and heavens didn't exist before he created them, just like my cabin didn't exist before I created it.

 

 If all things have been created through him, then all matter didn't exist before he created it

 

The Hebrew words used for "create" in scripture are "bara" (to create, shape, form, fashion by cutting, to cut out, or mold) and "Asah" (to make or do).  Both require existing matter.

 

For example:  In Gen 5:1 God "created" ("bara" - which is the same word used in the creation of heaven and earth in Gen 1:1) Adam and Eve.  But how did he "create" (bara) Adam?  From nothing?  No, he used existing matter the scriptures say - the dust of the earth.  In Gen 6:6 the bible uses the word "asah" to explain the creation of Adam and eve.  In Gen 2:4 "asah" is used to denote the creation of heaven and earth.  So you can see that the two are interchangeable and denote more of a shaping, making, molding, or fashioning, or as mormons like to say "organizing" from existing matter.

 

 

If matter or anything pre-existed God, then this statement would be false. God would have an obligation to that pre-existent thing, whether it's matter or spirit. But, here it states it plainly, "From him are all things."

 

 

You are lost in semantics. 

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danielwoods Grand Master

danielwoods

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I could say the same thing about the cabin that I built with my family. It is true the earth and heavens didn't exist before he created them, just like my cabin didn't exist before I created it.

The Hebrew words used for "create" in scripture are "bara" (to create, shape, form, fashion by cutting, to cut out, or mold) and "Asah" (to make or do). Both require existing matter.

For example: In Gen 5:1 God "created" ("bara" - which is the same word used in the creation of heaven and earth in Gen 1:1) Adam and Eve. But how did he "create" (bara) Adam? From nothing? No, he used existing matter the scriptures say - the dust of the earth. In Gen 6:6 the bible uses the word "asah" to explain the creation of Adam and eve. In Gen 2:4 "asah" is used to denote the creation of heaven and earth. So you can see that the two are interchangeable and denote more of a shaping, making, molding, or fashioning, or as mormons like to say "organizing" from existing matter.

You are lost in semantics.

Only if one assumes that matter was pre-existing. What it states is that all things were brought into existence by God. One has to assume that is does not include matter but that goes against what is explicitly stated in the text.
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pogi Grand Master

pogi

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Only if one assumes that matter was pre-existing. What it states is that all things were brought into existence by God. One has to assume that is does not include matter but that goes against what is explicitly stated in the text.

 

Did God create Adam ex-nihlo? 

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