Mormon 9:31.

[Investigating]

Condemn me not because of mine imperfection, neither my father, because of his imperfection, neither them who have written before him; but rather give thanks unto God that he hath made manifest unto you our imperfections, that ye may learn to be more wise than we have been. (Mormon 9:31.)

 

Does this passage imply that God allowed Mormon, his father, and those who wrote on the gold plates before them to make doctrinal errors?

[Avatar4321]

No

[Investigating]

No

Thank you, but could you please elaborate a little?

 

If Mormon 9:31 doesn't imply that Mormon, and his father, and those who wrote before them sometimes wrote things that weren't doctrinally correct, what kind of imperfections is it talking about?

 

What does it mean?

 

P.S. Since the guy with the anti-paternalistic twist on the Golden Rule is now saying that King Benjamin misled the Nephites in how to raise their children (and all or most of the following generation were lost as a result), any real answer here might help answer questions I've asked on another thread too.

Edited May 9, 2015 by Investigating

[thesometimesaint]

Thank you, but could you please elaborate a little?

 

If Mormon 9:31 doesn't imply that Mormon, and his father, and those who wrote before them sometimes wrote things that weren't doctrinally correct, what kind of imperfections is it talking about?

 

What does it mean?

 

P.S. Since the guy with the anti-paternalistic twist on the Golden Rule is now saying that King Benjamin misled the Nephites in how to raise their children (and all or most of the following generation were lost as a result), any real answer here might help answer questions I've asked on another thread too.

 

We don't believe any mortal is/was perfect except one. He died 2000 years ago. Everyone else is subject to error.

[Investigating]

We don't believe any mortal is/was perfect except one. He died 2000 years ago. Everyone else is subject to error.

So this could be true then?

 

 

Paternalism was the original error.

And if you have eyes to see it, paternalism may be found in surprising places. Like this, which I just read recently.

Learn to Be More Wise than We Have Been

Mosiah 4:14

And ye will not suffer your children that they go hungry, or naked; neither will ye suffer that they transgress the laws of God, and fight and quarrel one with another, and serve the devil, who is the master of sin, or who is the evil spirit which hath been spoken of by our fathers, he being an enemy to all righteousness.

“Neither will ye suffer that they transgress the laws of God.” In modern English, “You won’t allow your children to transgress the laws of God.”

That completely contradicts the point of my recent essay on Hedging the Law, and I was rather startled until it occurred to me: “what was the result?” After all, paternalism predictably generates rebellion and disunity.

That’s there, too.

Mosiah 26:1–4

1 Now it came to pass that there were many of the rising generation that could not understand the words of king Benjamin, being little children at the time he spake unto his people; and they did not believe the tradition of their fathers.

2 They did not believe what had been said concerning the resurrection of the dead, neither did they believe concerning the coming of Christ.

3 And now because of their unbelief they could not understand the word of God; and their hearts were hardened.

4 And they would not be baptized; neither would they join the church. And they were a separate people as to their faith, and remained so ever after, even in their carnal and sinful state; for they would not call upon the Lord their God.

Because their parents followed the instructions of King Benjamin, and sought to circumscribe their choices or even compel or coerce obedience to God’s commandments, many of the children rebelled and would not believe. I’ve been there, myself, for that very reason.

King Benjamin meant well, and it speaks volumes for his integrity and righteousness that he not only tolerated, but cooperated with the prophets in establishing peace in the land (Words of Mormon 1:16–18); indeed, his integrity and righteousness were why he was sent an angel, which marks the priesthood he was a member of (D&C 107:20). So often the prophets have been persecuted and rejected by those in authority as challenging said authority.

But from the vantage of the golden rule – for “this is the law and the prophets” – we see the hidden lesson: paternalism doesn’t work, even while it drives for results.

Hence, this.

Mormon 9:31

31

Condemn me not because of mine imperfection, neither my father, because of his imperfection, neither them who have written before him; but rather give thanks unto God that he hath made manifest unto you our imperfections, that ye may learn to be more wise than we have been.

Edited May 10, 2015 by Investigating

[Freedom]

That is a rather bold leap. We are not to allow or tolerate sin. This is just parenting 101. If your child skips school, you stop the behavior as soon as you are aware. If your child watches porn, you immediately intervene and work to have your child avoid this dangerous activity. If your child has a temper tantrum, you let them cool off and do not give in to the child or you will raise a spoiled brat. 

[thesometimesaint]

So this could be true then?

 

As a old retired psychiatric social worker. It is much easier and better to correct your children's misbehavior in loving and meaningful ways. If you don't, you get to pay me to do it. I work for about $150/hr.  If you do not correct your children's misbehavior, or pay me to, for long enough the state will. Unfortunately the state isn't as nice as I am about it.

[Bobbieaware]

Condemn me not because of mine imperfection, neither my father, because of his imperfection, neither them who have written before him; but rather give thanks unto God that he hath made manifest unto you our imperfections, that ye may learn to be more wise than we have been. (Mormon 9:31.)

Does this passage imply that God allowed Mormon, his father, and those who wrote on the gold plates before them to make doctrinal errors?

In this passage, Moroni is not speaking of the imperfections of the Nephite record that would one day become known as the Book of Mormon. Rather, he is speaking to the fact that he, his father, and other ancient American prophets were imperfect mortal beings who were part of a fallen and cursed people who were once highly favored of the Lord. Because the nation these prophets belonged to had turned their backs on the God who had once so mightily blessed them, and because they allowed themselves to fully ripened in iniquity without repentance, it was God's will they be utterly destroyed. He was lamenting the fact that his nation was annihilated because of wickedness and hoped the saints of latter-day Ametica would learn from their mistakes (mistakes carefully catalogued in the pages of the Book of Mormon) and not allow history to repeat itself.

Edited May 10, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[Garden Girl]

Condemn me not because of mine imperfection, neither my father, because of his imperfection, neither them who have written before him; but rather give thanks unto God that he hath made manifest unto you our imperfections, that ye may learn to be more wise than we have been. (Mormon 9:31.)

 

Does this passage imply that God allowed Mormon, his father, and those who wrote on the gold plates before them to make doctrinal errors?   

 

Oh brother... talk about cherry-picking...

Have you even read the full chapter... pondered it...

 

"And now, behold, who can stand against the works of the Lord?  Who can deny his sayings?  Who will rise up against the almighty power of the Lord?  Who will despise the works of the Lord?  Who will despise the children of Christ?  Behold, all ye who are despisers of the works of the Lord, for ye shall wonder and perish. 

O then despise not, and wonder not, but hearken unto the words of the Lord, and ask the Father in the name of Jesus for what things soever ye shall stand in need.  Doubt not but be believing, and begin as in times of old, and come unto the Lord with all your heart, and work out your own salvation with fear and trembling before him (see Phillip. 2:12).

Be wise in the days of your probation; strip yourselves of all uncleanness; ask not that ye may consume it on your lusts, but ask with a firmness unshaken, that ye will yield to no temptation, but that ye will serve the true and living God.

See that ye are not baptized unworthily; see that ye partake not of the sacrament of Christ unworthily; but see that ye do all things in worthiness, and do it in the name of Jesus Christ, the son of the living God; and if ye do this, and endure to the end, ye will in nowise be cast out.

Behold, I speak unto you as though I speak from the dead; for I know that ye shall have my words.

Condemn me not because of mine imperfections, neither my father, because of his imperfection, neither them who have written before him; but rather give thanks unto God that he hath made manifest unto you our imperfections, that ye may learn to be more wise than we have been.

And now, we have written this record according to our knowledge...

But the Lord knoweth the things which have been written, and also that none other people knoweth our language; therefore he hath prepared means for the interpretation thereof.

And these things are written that we may rid our garments of the blood of our brethren, who have dwindled in unbelief.

And behold, these things which we have desired concerning our brethren, yea, even their restoration to the knowledge of Christ, are according to the prayers of all the saints who have dwelt in the land.

And may the Lord Jesus Christ grant that their prayers may be answered according to their faith; and may God the Father remember the covenant which he hath made with the house of Israel; and may he bless them forever; through faith on the name of Jesus Christ.  Amen." (Mormon 9: 26 - 37)

 

 

I don't see any implication here, particularly your cherry picked passage, that implies that God allowed Mormon, his father. and those that wrote on the gold plates before them to make doctrinal errors... 

Rather, I see Moroni acknowleging his own imperfections while calling upon the people to repent and follow Jesus Christ, the son of the living God...

 

GG

[Investigating]

That is a rather bold leap. We are not to allow or tolerate sin. This is just parenting 101. If your child skips school, you stop the behavior as soon as you are aware. If your child watches porn, you immediately intervene and work to have your child avoid this dangerous activity. If your child has a temper tantrum, you let them cool off and do not give in to the child or you will raise a spoiled brat. 

 

As a old retired psychiatric social worker. It is much easier and better to correct your children's misbehavior in loving and meaningful ways. If you don't, you get to pay me to do it. I work for about $150/hr.  If you do not correct your children's misbehavior, or pay me to, for long enough the state will. Unfortunately the state isn't as nice as I am about it.

I tend to agree with you both, but I'd like to be able to prove (at least to myself) that you're right.

 

Can you help me?

 

Here's a discussion you might be interested in.

 

And BTW: Tim and one other poster who I don't think commented on this topic are the only one's I know to be followers of Denver Snuffer.

 

Log defended Snuffer before he started re-baptising people, but now seems to spend at least half his time defending the leadership of the LDS Church.

 

I don't really know where he stands on Snuffer.

Edited May 10, 2015 by Investigating

[Investigating]

I don't see any implication here, particularly your cherry picked passage, that implies that God allowed Mormon, his father. and those that wrote on the gold plates before them to make doctrinal errors... 

Rather, I see Moroni acknowleging his own imperfections while calling upon the people to repent and follow Jesus Christ, the son of the living God...

 

GG

It's not my cherry picked passage.

 

 

Paternalism was the original error.

And if you have eyes to see it, paternalism may be found in surprising places. Like this, which I just read recently.

Learn to Be More Wise than We Have Been

Mosiah 4:14

And ye will not suffer your children that they go hungry, or naked; neither will ye suffer that they transgress the laws of God, and fight and quarrel one with another, and serve the devil, who is the master of sin, or who is the evil spirit which hath been spoken of by our fathers, he being an enemy to all righteousness.

“Neither will ye suffer that they transgress the laws of God.” In modern English, “You won’t allow your children to transgress the laws of God.”

That completely contradicts the point of my recent essay on Hedging the Law, and I was rather startled until it occurred to me: “what was the result?” After all, paternalism predictably generates rebellion and disunity.

That’s there, too.

Mosiah 26:1–4

1 Now it came to pass that there were many of the rising generation that could not understand the words of king Benjamin, being little children at the time he spake unto his people; and they did not believe the tradition of their fathers.

[JLHPROF]

Errors yes.  Doctrinal errors, no.

However, I do believe each individual prophet in any scripture was limited in perspective by the amount of the gospel in his particular time period.  Some were working under a mosaic law.  Some were more under the first principles.  And most had ALL the gospel.

 

But I don't believe there are any doctrinal errors in the BOM.

[Freedom]

I tend to agree with you both, but I'd like to be able to prove (at least to myself) that you're right.

 

 

The only way you can prove it to yourself is by living the principle. The doctrine is sound. This passage of scripture was written by inspiration, and later selected by a prophet of God who as given a special and sacred duty to compile the Book of Mormon to come forth in our day. Someone can pretend to over analyse the passage in an attempt to appear insightful and intelligent, but usually the most obvious meaning of the passage is its true meaning. 

[mfbukowski]

Condemn me not because of mine imperfection, neither my father, because of his imperfection, neither them who have written before him; but rather give thanks unto God that he hath made manifest unto you our imperfections, that ye may learn to be more wise than we have been. (Mormon 9:31.)

 

Does this passage imply that God allowed Mormon, his father, and those who wrote on the gold plates before them to make doctrinal errors?

Oh yes of course.

It is written right there in the BOM that the BOM is wrong,and it is right that it is wrong, or is it wrong that it is wrong?

So if it's right that it is wrong, is where it says it is wrong right or is it wrong?

Did you this this through at all?

[Investigating]

Oh yes of course.

It is written right there in the BOM that the BOM is wrong,and it is right that it is wrong, or is it wrong that it is wrong?

So if it's right that it is wrong, is where it says it is wrong right or is it wrong?

Did you this this through at all?

I have a headache.

[mfbukowski]

I have a headache.

That's because the question is a self contradiction.

If Mormon is telling us earlier doctrine is wrong, then whom shoud we believe, Mormon or the earlier doctrine? How do we decide?

So Mormon cannot be saying that.

[Investigating]

That's because the question is a self contradiction.

If Mormon is telling us earlier doctrine is wrong, then whom shoud we believe, Mormon or the earlier doctrine? How do we decide?

So Mormon cannot be saying that.

I thank you for your feedback.

[stemelbow]

Errors yes.  Doctrinal errors, no.

However, I do believe each individual prophet in any scripture was limited in perspective by the amount of the gospel in his particular time period.  Some were working under a mosaic law.  Some were more under the first principles.  And most had ALL the gospel.

 

But I don't believe there are any doctrinal errors in the BOM.

I think it's possible to have errors, including doctrinal errors.

[ERayR]

I think it's possible to have errors, including doctrinal errors.

 

Of course there is.  They are easy to find.  If I don't agree with them they must be errors.

Edited May 12, 2015 by ERayR