Beliefs, Desires, Actions

[Mystery Meat]

So interesting thought discussion for everyone:

 

What would you say is more important beliefs or actions?

 

Say, for example, your child no longer believed in the Church but was still living a fairly Mormon lifestyle. Would you prefer that to your child still believing, desiring to be good but struggling in having their actions reflect those desires and beliefs?

 

In my experience, one is much harder to come back from than the other. It is kind of a silly question, I know, and there is probably no right answer. But I can say that I would rather have my child maintain testimony and desire to live in accordance with the Restored Gospel than live in spiritual apostasy. 

[thesometimesaint]

So interesting thought discussion for everyone:

 

What would you say is more important beliefs or actions?

 

Say, for example, your child no longer believed in the Church but was still living a fairly Mormon lifestyle. Would you prefer that to your child still believing, desiring to be good but struggling in having their actions reflect those desires and beliefs?

 

In my experience, one is much harder to come back from than the other. It is kind of a silly question, I know, and there is probably no right answer. But I can say that I would rather have my child maintain testimony and desire to live in accordance with the Restored Gospel than live in spiritual apostasy. 

 

Show me what you do, and I'll know what you believe.

[Tacenda]

Ok, so how about the "Jack Mormons".  Have they gave much thought to their beliefs?  Most of them I've known, just don't want to live the rules, they still believe the religion of their childhood - adulthood.  Or maybe deep down don't believe it.  Usually apostates were one of the most diligent LDS members.  They fulfilled all their callings, they paid a full tithing, they attended the temple etc.  But through some method stumbled onto information they had not known about.  And after that they searched harder than they ever had for their testimony to stay intact.  For some they come back as stronger.  In the mean time until they go either way, I think we should give them credit.  They aren't lazy, they are fighting for their lives.  They must have had a strong testimony, especially if they didn't want to just walk away, and have spent years continually attending their meetings and looking the part.  They are striving to make heads or tails of this shock to their systems.  So you would prefer the inactive believer over the active disbeliever, that is figuring it out?  Not to put words in your mouth, but this is what you seem to be saying, lvjd66.

[ALarson]

So interesting thought discussion for everyone:

 

What would you say is more important beliefs or actions?

 

Say, for example, your child no longer believed in the Church but was still living a fairly Mormon lifestyle. Would you prefer that to your child still believing, desiring to be good but struggling in having their actions reflect those desires and beliefs?

 

In my experience, one is much harder to come back from than the other. It is kind of a silly question, I know, and there is probably no right answer. But I can say that I would rather have my child maintain testimony and desire to live in accordance with the Restored Gospel than live in spiritual apostasy. 

I just want my kids to be able to be open and honest about what they believe.  I think it's soul draining, exhausting and very difficult to live a lie or to be a hypocrite. I would hope they'd choose to live the teachings of Christ as that is how we (my wife and I) taught them to live.  So far, so good with all of them.

[stemelbow]

So interesting thought discussion for everyone:

 

What would you say is more important beliefs or actions?

 

Say, for example, your child no longer believed in the Church but was still living a fairly Mormon lifestyle. Would you prefer that to your child still believing, desiring to be good but struggling in having their actions reflect those desires and beliefs?

 

In my experience, one is much harder to come back from than the other. It is kind of a silly question, I know, and there is probably no right answer. But I can say that I would rather have my child maintain testimony and desire to live in accordance with the Restored Gospel than live in spiritual apostasy.

How do we separate the two into two distinct areas of importance? I don't know. It seems we're told we'll be judged on both.

[smac97]

So interesting thought discussion for everyone:

 

What would you say is more important beliefs or actions?

There is a Latin legal maxim which may have some application here: "Affectio Tua Nomen Imponit Operi Tuo." This is generally translated as "Your motive gives a name to your act."

In other words, why you do something defines ("gives a name to") what you do. So I don't think we can differentiate an action as being more or less important than the motive behind it. I think the scriptures corroborate this point:

• Proverbs 23:7 - "For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he."
• Luke 6:45 - "A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh."
• Alma 12:14 - "For our words will condemn us, yea, all our works will condemn us; we shall not be found spotless; and our thoughts will also condemn us."
• D&C 18:38 - "And by their desires and their works you shall know them."
• Moroni 7:5-10 - "For I remember the word of God which saith by their works ye shall know them; for if their works be good, then they are good also. For behold, God hath said a man being evil cannot do that which is good; for if he offereth a gift, or prayeth unto God, except he shall do it with real intent it profiteth him nothing. For behold, it is not counted unto him for righteousness. For behold, if a man being evil giveth a gift, he doeth it grudgingly; wherefore it is counted unto him the same as if he had retained the gift; wherefore he is counted evil before God. And likewise also is it counted evil unto a man, if he shall pray and not with real intent of heart; yea, and it profiteth him nothing, for God receiveth none such. Wherefore, a man being evil cannot do that which is good; neither will he give a good gift."

Say, for example, your child no longer believed in the Church but was still living a fairly Mormon lifestyle. Would you prefer that to your child still believing, desiring to be good but struggling in having their actions reflect those desires and beliefs?

I'd rather my children be faithful in thought, deed and word. We are all wanting in one, some or all of these areas.

 

In my experience, one is much harder to come back from than the other. It is kind of a silly question, I know, and there is probably no right answer. But I can say that I would rather have my child maintain testimony and desire to live in accordance with the Restored Gospel than live in spiritual apostasy.

Sounds good.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited May 6, 2015 by smac97

[Storm Rider]

It has always been my idea that that those who live the truths they know is much better than the individual that knows/possesses much truth - has a great deal of gospel knowledge, but does not live them.  Faith is not a reflection of a moment in time, but it is a journey that has many ups and downs.  A faithful parent must be patient at all times and overlook those times when our children's current position in their journey of faith.  It may look like they are going off to hell at the present moment, but they have not forgotten the truths they discovered and knew.  I have faith that God will lead them to a deeper understanding of truth as they continue to struggle just as God does the same for us individually.  

 

I honestly believe that if we as parents remain faithful, attend the temple, then those children that we taught the gospel to in their youth will not often permanently forfeit the truths they learned and knew.  We forget many things, we struggle mightily at times to live truths we once knew, but in the end we are sealed to the Creator and we are his. 

Edited May 8, 2015 by Storm Rider

[ERayR]

Ok, so how about the "Jack Mormons".  Have they gave much thought to their beliefs?  Most of them I've known, just don't want to live the rules, they still believe the religion of their childhood - adulthood.  Or maybe deep down don't believe it.  Usually apostates were one of the most diligent LDS members.  They fulfilled all their callings, they paid a full tithing, they attended the temple etc.  But through some method stumbled onto information they had not known about.  And after that they searched harder than they ever had for their testimony to stay intact.  For some they come back as stronger.  In the mean time until they go either way, I think we should give them credit.  They aren't lazy, they are fighting for their lives.  They must have had a strong testimony, especially if they didn't want to just walk away, and have spent years continually attending their meetings and looking the part.  They are striving to make heads or tails of this shock to their systems.  So you would prefer the inactive believer over the active disbeliever, that is figuring it out?  Not to put words in your mouth, but this is what you seem to be saying, lvjd66.

 

May I refer you back to tss post #2?

 

 

Show me what you do, and I'll know what you believe.

[SmileyMcGee]

So interesting thought discussion for everyone:

What would you say is more important beliefs or actions?

Say, for example, your child no longer believed in the Church but was still living a fairly Mormon lifestyle. Would you prefer that to your child still believing, desiring to be good but struggling in having their actions reflect those desires and beliefs?

In my experience, one is much harder to come back from than the other. It is kind of a silly question, I know, and there is probably no right answer. But I can say that I would rather have my child maintain testimony and desire to live in accordance with the Restored Gospel than live in spiritual apostasy.

Side note: we need to rethink the use of the term apostasy. It does not simply mean disbelief of or disagreement with the doctrine de jour or "losing" ones testimony. It implies a fight against the church that many who struggle to believe don't participate in. Unfortunately, it's become a favorite label of members whose seige mentality causes them to see a person's struggle to believe as a threat. If you really care to help people with doubts you're going to have be more judicious with your use of that word.

[Senator]

So interesting thought discussion for everyone:

 

What would you say is more important beliefs or actions?

 

Say, for example, your child no longer believed in the Church but was still living a fairly Mormon lifestyle. Would you prefer that to your child still believing, desiring to be good but struggling in having their actions reflect those desires and beliefs?

 

In my experience, one is much harder to come back from than the other. It is kind of a silly question, I know, and there is probably no right answer. But I can say that I would rather have my child maintain testimony and desire to live in accordance with the Restored Gospel than live in spiritual apostasy. 

 

I'm just the opposit. I would much rather my child be living "a fairly Mormon lifestyle" yet no longer believing in the church.

 

To me, "living a fairly Mormon lifestyle", means they are avoiding drugs, alchohol and sexual promiscurity; retaining affections for family and family life; retaining respect for life, law, order and individual responsibility. In fact if one still holds to these things the question has to be asked just how it is they "no longer believe in the church".

 

No, I would much prefer this status than having them shackled with the many life destroying snares in the world, yet "still believe".

 

Then again, I have not yet had to face either. So who knows how my feelings might actually be in those situations

Edited May 7, 2015 by Senator

[ALarson]

I'm just the opposit. I would much rather my child be living "a fairly Mormon lifestyle" yet no longer believing in the church.

 

To me, "living a fairly Mormon lifestyle", means they are avoiding drugs, alchohol and sexual promiscurity; retaining affections for family and family life; retaining respect for life, law, order and individual responsibility. In fact if one still holds to these things the question has to be asked just how it is they "no longer believe in the church".

I agree.  I also have many friends who have never been a member of the church and yet have the same standards we have.  They've instilled these standards of integrity and Christlike values in their kids as well.  Some of the best people I know and some of the closest families I know are not members of the church.  

[Gray]

In my opinion, actions far outweigh beliefs.

 

Assuming that we are able to choose our beliefs (and I'm not assuming that we absolutely can), in my experience it's always a very narrow range of choices. For most people, belief is a function of birthplace and family tradition. 

 

Right action strikes me as being far more important. It is our by our actions that our true character can be determined.

 

Belief is like a piece of software for the brain. The same piece of software is not compatible with all computers. Software that can help one computer run more smoothly can cause another to crash entirely. 

 

In the Jewish tradition, actions are far more important than beliefs. I think they've got it right. 

Edited May 7, 2015 by Gray

[stemelbow]

In my opinion, actions far outweigh beliefs.

 

Assuming that we are able to choose our beliefs (and I'm not assuming that we absolutely can), in my experience it's always a very narrow range of choices. For most people, belief is a function of birthplace and family tradition. 

 

Right action strikes me as being far more important. It is our by our actions that our true character can be determined.

 

Belief is like a piece of software for the brain. The same piece of software is not compatible with all computers. Software that can help one computer run more smoothly can cause another to crash entirely. 

 

In the Jewish tradition, actions are far more important than beliefs. I think they've got it right.

Hey Gray, I hear ya, but when I hear it I think, actions are merely a demonstration of belief. All of our actions originate, it seems, in our belief system. They are conceived of, thought of, considered, all before they are played out. I'm still just thinking, I don't know how to separate the two.

[HappyJackWagon]

Adherence to rules and commandments won't save anyone. Empty belief in something without the conviction of devotional practices won't save either.

I'd prefer my child to live faithfully, ie. exercise faith in Christ. Living the Law of the Gospel, Love God/Love your neighbor is illustrates devotion while recognizing that we don't earn salvation and we can't choose to believe. We CAN choose to act in faith, even in the absense of belief, but it is only faith in Christ that will save us. Focusing too much on the behaviors becomes very pharisaical and misses the importance of grace.

[smac97]

I'm just the opposit. I would much rather my child be living "a fairly Mormon lifestyle" yet no longer believing in the church.

 

To me, "living a fairly Mormon lifestyle", means they are avoiding drugs, alchohol and sexual promiscurity; retaining affections for family and family life; retaining respect for life, law, order and individual responsibility. In fact if one still holds to these things the question has to be asked just how it is they "no longer believe in the church".

 

No, I would much prefer this status than having them shackled with the many life destroying snares in the world, yet "still believe".

 

Then again, I have not yet had to face either. So who knows how my feelings might actually be in those situations

I agree with your sentiments. I think it is easier to alter ones thoughts/beliefs than engrained behavioral habits, particularly potentially harmful ones. I am reminded here of the story of Emeth from The Last Battle the last book in The Chronicles of Narnia series by C.S. Lewis. Emeth is a Calormene character was raised to follow Tash, the antithesis of Aslan, and did so with an emphatic devotion and loyalty. Nevertheless, Emeth manages to travel to Aslan's paradisaical country after the destruction of Narnia, and is welcomed by Aslan. Aslan's words to Emeth, in which he ratifies the good deeds the latter did even under the name of Tash, are as follows: "I take to me the services which thou hast done to Tash [the false God]... if any man swear by him and keep his oath for the oath's sake, it is by me [Christ] that he has truly sworn, though he know it not, and it is I who reward him."

The implication is that people who reflect a righteous heart are to some degree justified, regardless of misbelief. This is a cornerstone of Christian theology: one party cites the Christian paradigm that faith in Christ alone saves, and the other wants to account for the fate of those born and raised into another faith. There has been extensive commentary on the question. In a letter from 1952, Lewis summarized and explained his position: "I think that every prayer which is sincerely made even to a false god, or to a very imperfectly conceived true God, is accepted by the true God and that Christ saves many who do not think they know him. For He is (dimly) present in the good side of the inferior teachers they follow. In the parable of the Sheep and Goats those who are saved do not seem to know that they have served Christ."

I think C.S. Lewis was essentially correct in his soteriology, a view which I think is widely shared amongst the Latter-day Saints. While the saving ordinances for the "Emeths" of this world will be necessary (just as they are necessary for those who are raised with an actual knowledge of and testimony of Christ), the countless numbers of God's children who have lived and died on this earth without having had a chance to hear about and accept Jesus Christ as their Savior will nevertheless have the same access to the Restored Gospel and the salvation that comes through it as is available to those of us to are given a chance to hear and accept the Gospel.

 

Thanks,

 

-Smac

Edited May 7, 2015 by smac97

[Gray]

Hey Gray, I hear ya, but when I hear it I think, actions are merely a demonstration of belief. All of our actions originate, it seems, in our belief system. They are conceived of, thought of, considered, all before they are played out. I'm still just thinking, I don't know how to separate the two.

 

I guess an important distinction to make would be your beliefs about what is right or wrong (there is probably a great deal in common among various belief systems) vs beliefs about what happens in the afterlife, the nature of God, the nature of scripture, the nature of worship, etc. The former inform our behavior directly, the latter less directly. 

[Hillel2]

In my opinion, actions far outweigh beliefs.

Assuming that we are able to choose our beliefs (and I'm not assuming that we absolutely can), in my experience it's always a very narrow range of choices. For most people, belief is a function of birthplace and family tradition.

Right action strikes me as being far more important. It is our by our actions that our true character can be determined.

Belief is like a piece of software for the brain. The same piece of software is not compatible with all computers. Software that can help one computer run more smoothly can cause another to crash entirely.

In the Jewish tradition, actions are far more important than beliefs. I think they've got it right.

[Hillel2]

Per jewish tradition this is mostly true. I recall an incident where one student was balking at the point of performing a specific ritual. He said: i don't really believe this stuff. The rabbi was completely unfazed. He said: don't worry about that. Learn the ritual and belief will come later. My own experience suggests that what we do and how we act shapes our beliefs more than the other way around. But, that may simply be a difference in religious cultures.

[thesometimesaint]

Per jewish tradition this is mostly true. I recall an incident where one student was balking at the point of performing a specific ritual. He said: i don't really believe this stuff. The rabbi was completely unfazed. He said: don't worry about that. Learn the ritual and belief will come later. My own experience suggests that what we do and how we act shapes our beliefs more than the other way around. But, that may simply be a difference in religious cultures.

 

It's a well know psychological function that if we persist in an action our beliefs will come to reflect that action. One off actions don't tell us much about beliefs however.