Bishop Dismisses Sunday School Teacher For Using Essay.

[CA Steve]

Just think how this thread would have developed differently if someone defending the teacher had asked:

 

Does anyone know when the bishop who disciplined the teacher in the OP, stopped beating his wife?

 

That sword cuts both ways. Regardless how common the analogy is, it is offensive.

[Scott Lloyd]

Yes, but they're also positive events.

Not everybody thinks so.

 

Exclusion from ordinances of salvation based on race has no redeeming value.

 

God governing in the affairs of His children whether or not His purposes are clear at the moment is a concept that does have redeeming value.

 

So does "waiting on the Lord."

 

Or exercising faith.

 

Or enduring trials.

[canard78]

You're OK with the "memory is and unfaithful mistress" then?

Of course I am. You really think there's no difference?

[Scott Lloyd]

I mentioned this earlier, but I think the context matters greatly here. President McKay felt it important that all the FP/Q12 be on the same page for the change. Clearly that wasn't the case during his lifetime. I can see why in those circumstances he would be told "not yet." I read that response as an invitation to President McKay to keep wrestling with his brethren rather than an indication that God somehow found value in excluding blacks from the priesthood and temple. There's a great benefit (both individually and collectively) when someone wrestles with a wrong and chooses to put it away because they see the evil in it, rather than putting it away simply because one is commanded. That benefit is maturity.

I, on the other hand, see it as a collective "stupor of thought," which we are taught to regard as a "no" answer.

[Scott Lloyd]

Of course I am. You really think there's no difference?

Well, as somebody else pointed out, countless families have been torn apart by infidelity. It's no laughing matter.

 

And some people who abhor domestic violence have no problem with infidelity. Yet both are abusive, each in a different way.

Edited May 6, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Calm]

I mentioned this earlier, but I think the context matters greatly here. President McKay felt it important that all the FP/Q12 be on the same page for the change. Clearly that wasn't the case during his lifetime. I can see why in those circumstances he would be told "not yet." I read that response as an invitation to President McKay to keep wrestling with his brethren rather than an indication that God somehow found value in excluding blacks from the priesthood and temple. There's a great benefit (both individually and collectively) when someone wrestles with a wrong and chooses to put it away because they see the evil in it, rather than putting it away simply because one is commanded. That benefit is maturity.

And I think this is a highly likely explanation...but not one provided by either Pres McKay or the Lord (at least in general to the Church, perhaps to individuals).

 

I have seen too often where the most likely explanation of someone's behavior is way off of the actual motivation.  I am quite paranoid  about assuming intent because of it.

Edited May 6, 2015 by calmoriah

[Scott Lloyd]

And I think this is a highly likely explanation...but not one provided by either Pres McKay or the Lord (at least in general to the Church, perhaps to individuals).

And hence, it's not something that ought to be proclaimed or taught in a formal Church setting -- not until it becomes more definitive.

[canard78]

May I have posts removed that I find offensive?

If I make a comment specifically about you and you, for personal reasons, found it upsetting or offensive, then yes.

Like I keep saying. I don't find domestic abuse funny. I've never (and will never) use the "beating your wife" analogy. It makes light of a crime and I object to it.

If it had been a comment between you and Nehor then I'd have probably ignored it. Given it involved me I found it offensive. Not because I worried about my reputation but because I objected to being used context of a trivialisation of a crime.

Is wife-beating really so trivial out in your country that it's something to laugh and joke about?

[thesometimesaint]

Not everybody thinks so.

 

God governing in the affairs of His children whether or not His purposes are clear at the moment is a concept that does have redeeming value.

 

So does "waiting on the Lord."

 

Or exercising faith.

 

Or enduring trials.

 

I've long maintained it wasn't so much a trial for faithful black members, but as one for the racist white ones.

[Rain]

For future reference, you're not obliged to talk to the media, even when approached by them.

Right.

[The Nehor]

Just think how this thread would have developed differently if someone defending the teacher had asked:

 

Does anyone know when the bishop who disciplined the teacher in the OP, stopped beating his wife?

 

That sword cuts both ways. Regardless how common the analogy is, it is offensive.

No, because the analogy would make no sense. I would not be offended; I would just be confused.

[ERayR]

 

Perhaps, by your definition.

I place myself in the "general heretic" category.

 

I place myself in the millionaire catagory but that does not mean that I am.  The truth is light years from it.

[The Nehor]

I place myself in the millionaire catagory but that does not mean that I am.  The truth is light years from it.

If you have eternal life then you own all the wealth in the Universe.

[canard78]

Well, as somebody else pointed out, countless families have been torn apart by infidelity. It's no laughing matter.

And some people who hate domestic abuse have no problem with infidelity.

And if I used that phrase about/at you and, for personal reasons, you expressed personal displeasure at being associated with it, I'd edit my comment. Is that so difficult? I simply asked Nehor to delete a comment about me that I found offensive. Instead of simply doing so he (and several others including you) went out of your way to justify his comment and argue that no deletion was needed.

[Buckeye]

And I think this is a highly likely explanation...but not one provided by either Pres McKay or the Lord (at least in general to the Church, perhaps to individuals).

 

I have seen too often where the most likely explanation of someone's behavior is way off of the actual motivation.  I am quite paranoid  about assuming intent because of it.

 

That's fair. If, as you suggest, this is the most likely explanation, then you really have only three options: (i) embrace this until something better comes along, (ii) investigate additional factual leads, or (iii) shelf the issue. President McKay isn't saying anything more while you're in this life. The Lord may, but you have no control over that. The church may as well, but again, you can't push that along. So unless you find new sources to research President McKay's experience, I would suggest either making an educated conclusion (keeping open for additional information) or shelfing the whole thing.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

I place myself in the millionaire catagory but that does not mean that I am.  The truth is light years from it.

The really awesome thing is- I couldn't care less what other people think. I hardily embrace the "heretic" label.

Edit: I used to care

"Oh, yeah, I'm an apostate? YOUR'E the apostate!!"

Good times, good times.

Edited May 6, 2015 by BookofMormonLuvr

[Chaos]

No more funnies at the expense of women please.

[The Nehor]

And if I used that phrase about/at you and, for personal reasons, you expressed personal displeasure at being associated with it, I'd edit my comment. Is that so difficult? I simply asked Nehor to delete a comment about me that I found offensive. Instead of simply doing so he (and several others including you) went out of your way to justify his comment and argue that no deletion was needed.

I am incorrigible by nature. Sorry.

[The Nehor]

No more funnies at the expense of women please.

Fair enough.

[Scott Lloyd]

And if I used that phrase about/at you and, for personal reasons, you expressed personal displeasure at being associated with it, I'd edit my comment. Is that so difficult? I simply asked Nehor to delete a comment about me that I found offensive. Instead of simply doing so he (and several others including you) went out of your way to justify his comment and argue that no deletion was needed.

I wouldn't be apt to express displeasure over it, actually. I'd see it for what it was: an illustration of the loaded-question fallacy.

[Buckeye]

The really awesome thing is- I couldn't care less what other people think. I hardily embrace the "heretic" label.

Edit: I used to care

"Oh, yeah, I'm an apostate? YOUR'E the apostate!!"

God times, good times.

 

I assume that's a freudian slip. No offense to freud.

[Scott Lloyd]

Is wife-beating really so trivial out in your country that it's something to laugh and joke about?

Objection! Broad-brush anti-American aspersions. Where's the "report" button?

[ERayR]

Of course I am. You really think there's no difference?

 

The difference is in the "eye of the beholder".  How you see it depends on your personal sensibilities.  What is offensive to one may not be so to others.  Maybe it should be but it is not.  To try and control someone else thru political correctness is also offensive.

[ERayR]

If I make a comment specifically about you and you, for personal reasons, found it upsetting or offensive, then yes.

Like I keep saying. I don't find domestic abuse funny. I've never (and will never) use the "beating your wife" analogy. It makes light of a crime and I object to it.

If it had been a comment between you and Nehor then I'd have probably ignored it. Given it involved me I found it offensive. Not because I worried about my reputation but because I objected to being used context of a trivialisation of a crime.

Is wife-beating really so trivial out in your country that it's something to laugh and joke about?

 

See my previous post concerning political correctness.

Edited May 6, 2015 by ERayR

[Scott Lloyd]

I assume that's a freudian slip. No offense to freud.

Well, you did fail to capitalize his name.