No True Scotsman And Faithful Latter-Day Saints

[Gray]

Quality of life scores usually deal with "objective" physical and mental health measures... and many healthy people are unhappy and unhealthy people are happy. So one is not "certainly" unhappy with low scores.

 

Alma is speaking of spiritual things and the study doesn't address LDS teachings.

 

Actually, if one is open-minded, the answer has to be "yes," "no" or "depends" with regards to John 7:17. Unfortunately you have bundled all LDS gay people into one stereotype.

 

Now that I think of it, the study really is about nothing!

 

People with very low quality of life scores include people suffering from PTSD, which is definitely not a happy condition to find oneself in. 

 

There is the temptation to liken happiness unto Scottishness (as in the no true Scottsman fallacy) when we discover the people we feel some antipathy towards are actually living healthy and happy lives. 

[Gray]

Gray- 

So you basic working premise is "If it make you happy, it can't be that bad." ?

People do lots of things thinking it makes them "happy."

 

Happy without the scare quotes, yes. 

 

Happiness isn't found in mistreating people, for instance. Nor is it found in wealth. But happiness does come from meaningful human relationships. It comes in doing good to others, and in good spiritual practices. 

 

Wickedness never was happiness, yes?

 

I would add that if you're miserable and you have the power to change that situation, it is absolutely right to do so. Happiness is the object of our existence. 

Edited May 15, 2015 by Gray

[Calm]

Essentially gay people who try to marry the opposite sex have a quality of life comparable to someone living with lupus. On the other hand, those who enter a same sex marriage have a quality of life slightly higher than straight married couples. 

Are these mixed gender marriages with those who know their spouses have homosexual attractions or not?

[ttribe]

When some one gets rep points constantly from posters on this board that are not Mormon or are ex Mormon I have to wonder who they are. When other posters that claims to be Mormon offer up other radical ideas that you give rep points to I have to wonder who you are. When those same posters give you rep points I have to wonder who you are.

 

Wait, getting rep points from the "wrong" people is an indicator that someone isn't the type of Mormon they claim to be? 

 

<----[Mind.Blown.]

 

[Teancum]

l

 

You have to ask yourself a few questions. Will God ever sanctify the male homosexual act? Will injecting the sacred seed of life up the waste system of another human being ever be sanctified? This is an abomination. What does desolate mean? No fruit of your loins. No children to raise up to be just like you, to be created in your image. I am desolate, I know about how it feels. I have helped take care of elderly parents and usher them into the next life. I have no children, who will do it for me? No one..

 

 

I really don't presume to know for sure what God says or does not say about anything. I know the scriptures that claim to be God's word are often not consistent. I know that Joseph Smith when seeking to justify multiple wives to a woman who viewed that as adultery says God can say something is wrong one day and right another and that whatever God commands is a ok. I know the LDS Church has changed what is acceptable as marriage as well as it has on other substantive things.  Consistency does not seem certain.

[CV75]

People with very low quality of life scores include people suffering from PTSD, which is definitely not a happy condition to find oneself in.

Depends. Not all people with low scores have PTSD, not all people with PTSD have low scores, and not all people with PTSD say they are unhappy.

 

There is the temptation to liken happiness unto Scottishness (as in the no true Scottsman fallacy) when we discover the people we feel some antipathy towards are actually living healthy and happy lives. 

"Yes, no and depends" is the correct approach to this comparison also.

 

You and I have been discussing the two scriptures you brought up, not the “No true Scotsman” fallacy. You have succumbed to the temptation to change the subject -- LOL!

 

That “wickedness never was happiness” doesn’t mean that Cain wasn’t wicked (Moses 5:31), that Malachi was confused (Malachi 3:15), or that sinners are instantly damned (Mormon 2:13).

[Gray]

Depends. Not all people with low scores have PTSD, not all people with PTSD have low scores, and not all people with PTSD say they are unhappy.

 

"Yes, no and depends" is the correct approach to this comparison also.

 

You and I have been discussing the two scriptures you brought up, not the “No true Scotsman” fallacy. You have succumbed to the temptation to change the subject -- LOL!

 

That “wickedness never was happiness” doesn’t mean that Cain wasn’t wicked (Moses 5:31), that Malachi was confused (Malachi 3:15), or that sinners are instantly damned (Mormon 2:13).

 

If one path leads to misery and its opposite to happiness, I think the conclusion is clear. We can see by their fruits which is the godly path. 

 

Preliminary finds for the study (published several years back) are available here:

 

Edit: it seems the link was auto deleted. You may be able to find it by googling:

 

"9/12 PFLAG Presentation on Preliminary Findings for LDS / Mormon SSA Study"

Edited May 15, 2015 by Gray

[Calm]

This is the Dehlin study that got their sample by people selfselecting to go online and answer his questions, right?

[BookofMormonLuvr]

If one path leads to misery and its opposite to happiness, I think the conclusion is clear. We can see by their fruits which is the godly path. 

 

Preliminary finds for the study (published several years back) are available here:

 

Edit: it seems the link was auto deleted. You may be able to find it by googling:

 

"9/12 PFLAG Presentation on Preliminary Findings for LDS / Mormon SSA Study"

If obedience to God leads to misery perhaps it is the person, not the commandment?

 

• Mormon 2:13

  13 But behold this my joy was vain, for their sorrowing was not unto repentance, because of the goodness of God; but it was rather the sorrowing of the damned, because the Lord would not always suffer them to take happiness in sin.

[rockpond]

Wait, getting rep points from the "wrong" people is an indicator that someone isn't the type of Mormon they claim to be?

<----[Mind.Blown.]

Everyone knows that a true believing Mormon wouldn't give or accept a random small act of kindness from someone who believes differently.

[rockpond]

Wait, getting rep points from the "wrong" people is an indicator that someone isn't the type of Mormon they claim to be?

<----[Mind.Blown.]

Everyone knows that a true believing Mormon wouldn't give or accept a random small act of kindness from someone who believes differently.

[Gray]

This is the Dehlin study that got their sample by people selfselecting to go online and answer his questions, right?

 

I believe so. He was one of several researchers on the project. 

 

Edit: this is not the survey on why people become disaffected from Mormonism. This is a separate study done in conjunction with Utah State University, and includes a retired BYU professor on the project. 

 

Authors are: 

 

John P. Dehlin, Katie Peterson and Renee V. Galliher, USU

Bill Bradshaw (Retired), BYU

Edited May 15, 2015 by Gray

[Gray]

 

If obedience to God leads to misery perhaps it is the person, not the commandment?

 

• Mormon 2:13

  13 But behold this my joy was vain, for their sorrowing was not unto repentance, because of the goodness of God; but it was rather the sorrowing of the damned, because the Lord would not always suffer them to take happiness in sin.

 

 

But the problem is the happiness stems from living with the dissonance of their own orientation vs what the church is teaching about them. In other words, gay people who live the law of chastity as currently interpreted are not happy by and large. 

[BookofMormonLuvr]

But the problem is the happiness stems from living with the dissonance of their own orientation vs what the church is teaching about them. In other words, gay people who live the law of chastity as currently interpreted are not happy by and large. 

Perhaps they should focus on expanding their gifts and talents and blessing the lives of others through service, instead of their sex life, or lack thereof- as millions of others have done who repress their own natural man tendencies. No one gets a free pass to indulge in their particular weakness.

[rockpond]

Wait, getting rep points from the "wrong" people is an indicator that someone isn't the type of Mormon they claim to be?

<----[Mind.Blown.]

Everyone knows that a true believing Mormon wouldn't give or accept a random small act of kindness from someone who believes differently.

[Calm]

I believe so. He was one of several researchers on the project. 

 

Edit: this is not the survey on why people become disaffected from Mormonism. This is a separate study done in conjunction with Utah State University, and includes a retired BYU professor on the project. 

 

Authors are: 

 

John P. Dehlin, Katie Peterson and Renee V. Galliher, USU

Bill Bradshaw (Retired), BYU

But the sample was collected much the same....it was a survey of people who responded to the request for input through online and other organizations that were seen as likely having high number of such individuals rather than being selected by a randomized process.

[CV75]

If one path leads to misery and its opposite to happiness, I think the conclusion is clear. We can see by their fruits which is the godly path. 

 

Preliminary finds for the study (published several years back) are available here:

 

Edit: it seems the link was auto deleted. You may be able to find it by googling:

 

"9/12 PFLAG Presentation on Preliminary Findings for LDS / Mormon SSA Study"

I don’t think Isaiah 30:10-11 is about defining happiness according to quality of life scores from an old and arguably biased study. There is a big difference between heavenly light and secular sparks: “Who is among you that feareth the Lord, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the Lord, and stay upon his God. Behold, all ye that kindle a fire, that compass yourselves about with sparks: walk in the light of your fire, and in the sparks that ye have kindled. This shall ye have of mine hand; ye shall lie down in sorrow.”

 

Two kinds of people use differing kinds of light. In the conclusion, sorrow is represented as the consequence of following human ideas rather than God’s light.

 

So while there is no one true definition of happiness that the entire world agrees on, since this is a Mormon discussion board, I would like to see you make your point in religious or spiritual terms consistent with our scriptures. Alma 41 and John 7 aren’t helping your case.

 

The path to eternal life and exaltation often entails some very unhappy realizations of denied blessings and self-denial during the interim.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Wait, getting rep points from the "wrong" people is an indicator that someone isn't the type of Mormon they claim to be? 

 

<----[Mind.Blown.]

 

 

That is not what I said was it?

Edited May 15, 2015 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[Gray]

Perhaps they should focus on expanding their gifts and talents and blessing the lives of others through service, instead of their sex life, or lack thereof- as millions of others have done who repress their own natural man tendencies. No one gets a free pass to indulge in their particular weakness.

 

I think that's what many of them did. 

 

But if you think that this is just about sex life, I think you're being too simplistic. Sex is a small part of marriage. 

[Gray]

But the sample was collected much the same....it was a survey of people who responded to the request for input through online and other organizations that were seen as likely having high number of such individuals rather than being selected by a randomized process.

 

I think it's the only kind of sampling possible for this kind of project. As samples go it was a large group - 1600 respondents. 

[Gray]

I don’t think Isaiah 30:10-11 is about defining happiness according to quality of life scores from an old and arguably biased study.

 

The study was just completed this year. Why arguably biased? It was released through Utah State University. 

 

There is a big difference between heavenly light and secular sparks: “Who is among you that feareth the Lord, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the Lord, and stay upon his God. Behold, all ye that kindle a fire, that compass yourselves about with sparks: walk in the light of your fire, and in the sparks that ye have kindled. This shall ye have of mine hand; ye shall lie down in sorrow.”

 

Jesus already gave us a test to compare true and false doctrines. And Mormonism isn't a dualistic religion by nature - heavenly and earthly is all material

 

Two kinds of people use differing kinds of light. In the conclusion, sorrow is represented as the consequence of following human ideas rather than God’s light.

 

So while there is no one true definition of happiness that the entire world agrees on, since this is a Mormon discussion board, I would like to see you make your point in religious or spiritual terms consistent with our scriptures. Alma 41 and John 7 aren’t helping your case.

 

The path to eternal life and exaltation often entails some very unhappy realizations of denied blessings and self-denial during the interim.

 

Let's just say that I don't believe in the gospel of misery - rather I subscribe to the gospel of happiness, and I take seriously the passage that says wickedness never way happiness. I take seriously the idea that by their fruits you may know them. I'm a practical kind of guy, and these scriptural principles appeal to me. 

 

 

[BookofMormonLuvr]

I think that's what many of them did. 

 

But if you think that this is just about sex life, I think you're being too simplistic. Sex is a small part of marriage. 

And yet, millions of hetereosexual singles have managed. Are you saying homosexuals are incapable of controlling themselves? Seems you your opinion of them is less than those who believe the practice is wrong. 

[Calm]

I think it's the only kind of sampling possible for this kind of project. As samples go it was a large group - 1600 respondents. 

I can think of quite a number of other ways to collect samples, it just would take a lot more effort than having people come to you.

 

And the size of the group is meaningless if it is collected poorly.

 

If one goes to Mormon Women Stand and asks for suvery responses from their members, do you think that even if you got 6000 women to respond (taken the number off of the facebook page stat of those who are talking about the fb page) you could claim this was a good selection of the opinions of women in the Church?

 

What arena did Dehlin etc. use to ensure that he got an accurate percentage of active homosexual LDS who were in mixed gender marriages?  What reasoning did he use to evaluate his percentages that he got?

Edited May 15, 2015 by calmoriah

[Scott Lloyd]

But the sample was collected much the same....it was a survey of people who responded to the request for input through online and other organizations that were seen as likely having high number of such individuals rather than being selected by a randomized process.

I think this fact alone greatly hinders the credibility and reliability of a study of this nature, which is apt to attract mostly respodents eager to see the study prove a specific point.

Edited May 15, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

I can think of quite a number of other ways to collect samples, it just would take a lot more effort than having people come to you.

 

And the size of the group is meaningless if it is collected poorly.

 

If one goes to Mormon Women Stand and asks for suvery responses from their members, do you think that even if you got 6000 women to respond (taken the number off of the facebook page stat of those who are talking about the fb page) you could claim this was a good selection of the opinions of women in the Church?

 

What arena did Dehlin etc. use to ensure that he got an accurate percentage of active homosexual LDS who were in mixed gender marriages?  What reasoning did he use to evaluate his percentages that he got?

Media organizations are accustomed to employing professional pollsters who do scientific sampling conforming to a strict methodology, precisely to avoid this sort of self-selected field of response, symptomatic of what is know as coverage bias or self-selection bias.

 

Sampling and polling are not as simple as a lot of people think; otherwise, anyone could do it.

Edited May 15, 2015 by Scott Lloyd