Book Of Mormon Archaeology

[JLHPROF]

Telling me that God couldn't trust the plates with the one true church and his elected authorities on earth doesn't sound compelling.  It sounds like an evasion.

Besides, how is someone going to translate without the power of God providing the translation authority? 

 

Oh I'm sure every professor of ancient languages in the country would want to get their hands on it.  And to put it on display without allowing it to examined wouldn't do the Church any favors against its critics.

 

No, God taking back the plates isn't suspicious to me at all.  Humans are nosy and there are things God doesn't want revealed.  Simple as that.

[Gervin]

Oh I'm sure every professor of ancient languages in the country would want to get their hands on it.  And to put it on display without allowing it to examined wouldn't do the Church any favors against its critics.

I'm sure lots of folks would like to take a look at the seer stone and other things in church's vaults.  The Church has no problem keeping private things from prying eyes. 

 

No, God taking back the plates isn't suspicious to me at all.  Humans are nosy and there are things God doesn't want revealed.  Simple as that.

 

 

"God doesn't want it" is the best possible LDS answer and also the least convincing. 

[Kenngo1969]

If anyone is holding out hope for the discovery of New World Book of Mormon artifacts or evidences or places or cultures or archaeological connections, I’ve got some bad news … it’s never going to happen. 

 

 

Ipse dixit, ergo, quod erat demonstrandum?

 

Alrighty, then!  Will the last person out of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints please turn out the lights?

 

What if, since I'm essentially my own trier of fact, I decide what the rules of evidence are, I decide what evidence to admit and to exclude, I decide how much weight to give to any particular piece of evidence (or not), and so on?  What if I decide that the words of Joseph Smith and others who said that they actually interacted with beings, at least one of whom reported that he lived on earth during Book of Mormon times, and that they actually handled artifacts purporting to come from Book of Mormon areas and times, are credible enough for me to believe them?  What if, since I believe one of the cardinal rules of fraud is, "Keep it simple, stupid!", I'm inclined to believe these events happened essentially as these people said they did, since they violated that rule?

[Kenngo1969]

It seems to me to be a misunderstanding of what faith is and the role it plays no matter what. Even if an angel was sent to each of us, we'd still have to have faith and trust that the angel was telling the truth. Faith still plays a huge role despite the amount of evidence, or not. 

 

Many people saw Jesus teach and watched his miracles, but still didn't have faith. 

I might not agree with the conclusions you may draw from this premise, or with other premises you might state in an effort to support your viewpoint, but I do agree with this premise.

[JLHPROF]

I'm sure lots of folks would like to take a look at the seer stone and other things in church's vaults.  The Church has no problem keeping private things from prying eyes.

 

 

But you aren't arguing that if the plates remained they should stay in the vault.  You are arguing that they should be on display as proof of the validity of the Book of Mormon, something that would require they be examined.

You can't have it both ways.

 

The were taken back precisely so they couldn't be examined further.  Leaving them here and locking them in a vault would have had the exact same result, so I fail to see what difference God's choice to take them back made.

[HOLY CATHOLIC]

Does any Mormon know about the Sennacherib Prism found that details the story about the Biblical story of King Sennacherib sounding Jerusalem ? In fact the Prism even uses some of the same analogy as Psalm 124 which was written by King Hezekiah . Both use the words like a caged bird were the people living in Jerusalem when Sennacherib's army sounded them . Hezekiah said like a snare in a fowlers net. Just before Jesus's Army destroyed the army of Sennacherib . This is real archeology evidence      

[Gervin]

But you aren't arguing that if the plates remained they should stay in the vault.  You are arguing that they should be on display as proof of the validity of the Book of Mormon, something that would require they be examined.

You can't have it both ways.

 

The were taken back precisely so they couldn't be examined further.  Leaving them here and locking them in a vault would have had the exact same result, so I fail to see what difference God's choice to take them back made.

Read better.  I didn't say they should be on display, I said "if" they were on display.  Your reasons for spiriting away archaeological evidence are weak.  You're better off with "God wants it that way."

Edited March 18, 2015 by Gervin

[JLHPROF]

Does any Mormon know about the Sennacherib Prism found that details the story about the Biblical story of King Sennacherib sounding Jerusalem ? In fact the Prism even uses some of the same analogy as Psalm 124 which was written by King Hezekiah . Both use the words like a caged bird were the people living in Jerusalem when Sennacherib's army sounded them . Hezekiah said like a snare in a fowlers net. Just before Jesus's Army destroyed the army of Sennacherib . This is real archeology evidence      

 

So your argument is that there is archaeological evidence to support the OT but not to support the BOM (which there is by the way).

What about Christ?  Many atheists claim there is no archaeological evidence to support his existence either.

Edited March 18, 2015 by JLHPROF

[bluebell]

It seems to me to be a misunderstanding of what faith is and the role it plays no matter what. Even if an angel was sent to each of us, we'd still have to have faith and trust that the angel was telling the truth. Faith still plays a huge role despite the amount of evidence, or not. 

 

Many people saw Jesus teach and watched his miracles, but still didn't have faith.

 

Very true.  It would be interesting to know if anyone that was actually healed by Jesus failed to have faith in His ability to heal after it happened.

 

But my point comes from the book of mormon, so it stands on it's own for those who believe that book is also the word of God.

And now, I, Moroni, would speak somewhat concerning these things; I would show unto the world that faith is things which are hoped for and not seen; wherefore, dispute not because ye see not, for ye receive no witness until after the trial of your faith.

[bluebell]

Does any Mormon know about the Sennacherib Prism found that details the story about the Biblical story of King Sennacherib sounding Jerusalem ? In fact the Prism even uses some of the same analogy as Psalm 124 which was written by King Hezekiah . Both use the words like a caged bird were the people living in Jerusalem when Sennacherib's army sounded them . Hezekiah said like a snare in a fowlers net. Just before Jesus's Army destroyed the army of Sennacherib . This is real archeology evidence      

 

Do you know about the discovery of the ancient city of Troy?  And how the words contained in the Odyssey match where people believe they have found the city?

 

That is real archaeological evidence that Zeus is real.  Or is if we use your standard, anyway.  

 

The Sennacherib prism is really cool, and it does collaborate the army engagements between the Israelites and Assyria.  Of course it says nothing about the existence of God or His intervention and cannot be used to support any supernatural teachings of the Bible.  It is evidence, but not proof of any kind and that is what CB is talking about.

 

He is not saying that no evidence will ever be found to support that JS was a prophet.  He is saying that evidence which proves that JS was a prophet won't be found.  There is a difference.

Edited March 18, 2015 by bluebell

[Robert F. Smith]

Sigh

 

Once again...have you heard about Zerehemla from ANY other source?  I have not.  So, for me, finding Zerahemla would definitively prove that Joseph was a prophet.  If that is true....and Zerahemla is true, then it would seem to be absolute proof of God.  Nothing in the Bible does that.  

You answered none of my questions, unless your "sigh" is an indicator of impatience with my stupidity, and is intended as an answer of sorts.

 

You might have at least verified that I have understood you correctly with my description, or tell me where I have gone wrong.  Thanks.

[Uncle Dale]

...

"God doesn't want it" is the best possible LDS answer and also the least convincing.

If God does not want any evidence of the Nephites to ever be found,

then why was Mrs. Whitmer allowed to see the plates? And why was

William Smith allowed to see the Nephite breastplate?

Why was David Whitmer allowed to see the Nephite stone box?

Why were several members of Zion's Camp allowed to see Zelph?

Why was Lyman Wight allowed to see the Nephite tower?

If all of those things were divinely allowed, I would think that

God would allow somebody to uncover a few bits of fossil

wheat pollen from the Nephite wheat fields. Or one other

metal plate, with Nephite characters scratched into it.

Has God really removed all of those mega-tons of evidence

from the archaeological record, just to strengthen the faith

of believing Mormons?

Such a God might also put fake dinosaur bones in the rocks,

in order to test the faith of the Latter Day Saints, I suppose.

UD

[JLHPROF]

If God does not want any evidence of the Nephites to ever be found,

then why was Mrs. Whitmer allowed to see the plates? And why was

William Smith allowed to see the Nephite breastplate?

Why was David Whitmer allowed to see the Nephite stone box?

Why were several members of Zion's Camp allowed to see Zelph?

Why was Lyman Wight allowed to see the Nephite tower?

 

 

Hmm..look at all that archaeological evidence.

And at least 3 of these people left the Church anyway.

 

Good reason why archaeological proof is irrelevant.

[mfbukowski]

After careful prayer and study, I have come to the conclusion that we will never know the locations of the Book of Mormon.  Oh, there will be discoveries like on the Arabian Peninsula...where intelligent minds will disagree of its significance, but we will never uncover the exact location.

 

And that is exactly how it is supposed to be.  We should NEVER find it.

 

I know this sounds strange to anyone who knows me and my arguments in the past.

 

But, as I studied and prayed, I came upon this thought:

 

We can walk the streets of Jerusalem, but doing so does not PROVE the Bible.

 

However, if we EVER uncovered an ancient sign that said, "Welcome to the Town of Zerehemla" that fact, in and of itself, would PROVE...definitively, the Book of Mormon.  And then, there would be perfect knowledge and no need for faith.

 

And without Faith, there is no hope.  No refining.  No progression.

 

So, despite my vociferous arguments as a Non-Mormon, I admit my error as an LDS re-investigator.

 

If it served God's purpose for us to know...we would.  However, it better serves His purpose that we walk by faith, not by perfect knowledge.

Absolutely totally 100 percent agree with gold stars and fireworks!!!!!!

And that extends to the flood, evolution and science in general.

Picking a religion is picking an explanation for why we are here that resonates with our spirits and whatever is inside us on a very deep level.

It is not about science or archaeology.

Yes I believe the BOM "really happened" and the atonement and resurrection as well but those are themselves RELIGIOUS beliefs taken on faith.

[Robert F. Smith]

If anyone is holding out hope for the discovery of New World Book of Mormon artifacts or evidences or places or cultures or archaeological connections, I’ve got some bad news … it’s never going to happen.

There is plenty of evidence already, for those who are not apriorists, and I have discussed some of it in my “The Preposterous Book of Mormon: A Singular Advantage,” lecture, Aug 8, 2014, at the annual FAIRMORMON Conference, Provo, Utah, online at http://www.fairmormon.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/PREPOSTEROUS-BOOK-OF-MORMON.pdf .

 

not one piece of Hebrew-recorded history written in Reformed Egyptian has ever been discovered, so who would challenge Smith’s translation?

So you are excluding from consideration Hebrew and other Semitic documents written in Hieratic or Demotic Egyptian, and are solely concerned with New World artifacts?  You also apparently exclude the so-called Anthon Transcript from consideration?  Apriorists need to be absolute.  No room for equivocation, right?

 

 

..................................

In truth, what makes sense is that the one advantage of not preserving this one artifact – this unique archaeological discovery – was to keep it from being scrutinized.  That was Joseph Smith’s advantage.  I wonder how God’s power or Christ’s message would be compromised or diminished if the plates were on display at the Temple if SLC?  Has the public display of the Dead Sea Scrolls caused people to lose or abandon their faith?  Perhaps the opposite.

The very valuable Dead Sea Scrolls do not constitute any sort of divine disclosure or magnalia dei.  They are merely more manuscript fragments from a very early period, and would make no sense at all in the absence of Massoretic Hebrew codices such as the Leningrad Codex or Aleppo Codex, or indeed without the LXX Greek codices -- without which we would have no biblical context.

 

A more apt question might be, If the Ark of the Covenant (and its numinous contents) were so important to God and to Israel, where is it?  Why wouldn't God make it (and the Urim & Thummim) readily available?  Now.

For an apriorist, of course, it makes no sense.  You start from a frankly negative position, and the result will always be predictable.  With archeology, on the other hand, one can be surprised and amazed.  One can actually learn from discoveries.  It's called "basic research."

 

So, this artifact – the reflection of hundreds upon hundreds of years of recorded Jewish and early Christian history – are preserved, passed on from generation to generation, updated, abridged, carried around, revealed, translated and, curiously, deemed inappropriate for the world’s eyes.  It makes no sense.

An archeologist doesn't whine about what is missing, Gervin. He deals with what he has and systematically analyzes it.

Edited March 18, 2015 by Robert F. Smith

[mfbukowski]

People "die for their country".

This is DYING for a BELIEF.

We thank them for their sacrifice. We thank Jesus for his sacrifice.

Those beliefs cannot be proven objectively by science or archaeology.

Science does not make a difference in our lives, BELIEF makes ALL the difference.

[mfbukowski]

If God does not want any evidence of the Nephites to ever be found,

then why was Mrs. Whitmer allowed to see the plates? And why was

William Smith allowed to see the Nephite breastplate?

Why was David Whitmer allowed to see the Nephite stone box?

Why were several members of Zion's Camp allowed to see Zelph?

Why was Lyman Wight allowed to see the Nephite tower?

If all of those things were divinely allowed, I would think that

God would allow somebody to uncover a few bits of fossil

wheat pollen from the Nephite wheat fields. Or one other

metal plate, with Nephite characters scratched into it.

Has God really removed all of those mega-tons of evidence

from the archaeological record, just to strengthen the faith

of believing Mormons?

Such a God might also put fake dinosaur bones in the rocks,

in order to test the faith of the Latter Day Saints, I suppose.

UD

I presume you are a pacifist?

[Bob Crockett]

You answered none of my questions, unless your "sigh" is an indicator of impatience with my stupidity, and is intended as an answer of sorts.

Hah hah. What a great retort a "sigh" is!

[Gervin]

With archeology, on the other hand, one can be surprised and amazed.  One can actually learn from discoveries.  It's called "basic research."

 

I'm in the development business.  I've had staff archaeologists working for me, I've contracted out archaeological services across the U.S.  I've been on field surveys and Phase I-III shovel tests --> on site mitigation.  I've been on digs in the Middle East.  I've read and edited archaeological reports and I've testified at DOI on NAGPRA issues.  I know about research and am quite comfortable concluding that there is no Book of Mormon archaeology.  Feel free to disagree.  Feel free to attach a photo of your favorite New World Book of Mormon archaeological site.

 

One could make the same rant about the Ark of the Covenant, with its numinous contents.

 

Poor analogy.  No one claims that the Ark was taken to heaven by God.  Ever been on the Western Wall tour under Temple Mount?  They found evidence of Solomon's temple.  They even may find Ark contents.  No one is claiming that the Ark and its contents are in heaven.

 

An archeologist doesn't whine about what is missing, Gervin.  He deals with what he has and systematically analyzes it.

Whining?  What's missing is fact, despite the upcoming admonition to read Sorenson, et al.

[Uncle Dale]

I presume you are a pacifist?

Some people tell me God put the fossils in the rocks

in order to test the faith of Christians. Other people

tell me that the Devil put them there to deceive us.

Perhaps God and the Devil are one in the same.

Perhaps the fossils got there because biological

evolution over vast periods of time is true.

Either way, we have the fossils to examine.

The Nephite wheat pollen may have been removed

by Eloheim, or by Satan, or... perhaps it was never

there in the first place. And, thus...

There were no vast Nephite wheat fields, sending

forth pollen into the air, century after century.

And there were no Nephites to plow, broadcast

sow, raise, reap, and eat the Book of Mormon grains.

UD

[Robert F. Smith]

Also, isn't it the Lord's goal to have everyone hear the gospel and become a member of the church?  Just imagine what a missionary tool it would be if the locations of the Book of Mormon lands became known and proof was found of the civilizations that we read about there.  It makes no sense that God would want to hide the proof from us.  I'm still hoping someone discovers it.

And that is why Jesus provided proof of his divinity, thus leaving no doubt for his contemporaries nor for us today?  Right?  Or did he say something about what sort of people sought for a sign?

[Robert F. Smith]

-----------------------------------------------------   

The Nephite wheat pollen may have been removed

by Eloheim, or by Satan, or... perhaps it was never

there in the first place. And, thus...

There were no vast Nephite wheat fields, sending

forth pollen into the air, century after century.

And there were no Nephites to plow, broadcast

sow, raise, reap, and eat the Book of Mormon grains.

................................................  

So you are now reporting that palynologists have made a thorough check of the Americas, and have found no archeololgical wheat pollens or phytoliths?  CFR

 

Of course, you are aware that barley was cultivated in the pre-Columbian Americas, and that's why you left that cultigen out?

 

What other high-value grains were cultivated in the pre-Columbian Americas?

[UtahTexan]

I'm sure lots of folks would like to take a look at the seer stone and other things in church's vaults.  The Church has no problem keeping private things from prying eyes. 

 

 

"God doesn't want it" is the best possible LDS answer and also the least convincing. 

 

Ok...so then YOU tell me what God is thinking....please.  I look forward to your answer

[UtahTexan]

Does any Mormon know about the Sennacherib Prism found that details the story about the Biblical story of King Sennacherib sounding Jerusalem ? In fact the Prism even uses some of the same analogy as Psalm 124 which was written by King Hezekiah . Both use the words like a caged bird were the people living in Jerusalem when Sennacherib's army sounded them . Hezekiah said like a snare in a fowlers net. Just before Jesus's Army destroyed the army of Sennacherib . This is real archeology evidence      

 

Yes...but does it prove God exists?

[Robert F. Smith]

I'm in the development business.  I've had staff archaeologists working for me, I've contracted out archaeological services across the U.S.  I've been on field surveys and Phase I-III shovel tests --> on site mitigation.  I've been on digs in the Middle East.  I've read and edited archaeological reports and I've testified at DOI on NAGPRA issues.  I know about research and am quite comfortable concluding that there is no Book of Mormon archaeology.  Feel free to disagree.  Feel free to attach a photo of your favorite New World Book of Mormon archaeological site.

You talk big, Gervin, yet all your comments show you to be closed-minded and completely unfamiliar with what archeology does and how it does it.  Most of all, you violate the first rule, and assume what has to be proved.  QED. None of your staff archeologists (with whom you clearly have not worked as an archeologist) would brook the apriori nonsense you spew about knowing everything before the fact.  As a purely secular matter, this is bad science.

 

Poor analogy.  No one claims that the Ark was taken to heaven by God.  Ever been on the Western Wall tour under Temple Mount?  They found evidence of Solomon's temple.  They even may find Ark contents.  No one is claiming that the Ark and its contents are in heaven.

Where is it then, since your empty claim is that such numinous objects must be made readily available by God?  In any case, someone named John saw the Ark in heaven (Rev 11:19).  There is also a tradition that Jeremiah sealed it in a cave somewhere (II Macc 2:4-8 ).

 

Whining?  What's missing is fact, despite the upcoming admonition to read Sorenson, et al.

Again, real archeologists don't whine about what has not been found, they get busy with what they have.  That's a powerful secular concept, Gervin.  If we adopted your approach, we wouldn't feel a need to do archeology, nor to work a crime scene.  Just take the first phony confession that comes into the station.  Right?  Any apriori flight of fancy is O.K.?