Lds Officer Says He Resigned Due To Religious Discrimination

[bluebell]

A police officer's duty is to the public. ALL of the public. Cops can't pick and choose what groups they decide are worth protecting.

The same thing would apply to an Evangelical or Catholic cop refusing to serve duty at the Days of 47 parade. And if he refused to do it, he should be fired for discriminating against the very public that pays his salary.

I agree.

But he didn't refuse to serve duty at the parade. He asked if he could trade and not be in the actual parade itself while still working at the parade.

[Darren10]

Police do not show up to celebrate. It is their job to protect the public. If this conscientious objector thing holds up will we have diplomats refusing to talk to shady governments? Secret service unwilling to protect the President when he meets with hostile governments? Mailmen refusing to deliver mail to people abusive to their families?

No one assumes in those cases that you are validating some cause. You are just doing your job. So do your job.

 

Since when are police brigade's "celebratory circles" done in a parade merely to protect the public?

[KevinG]

I like it -- except that I didn't have the impression Jesus actually whipped anyone bodily, just that he made the scourge to aid him in overturning the tables and such.

 

Yes this is a translation issue...

 

http://biblehub.com/john/2-15.htm

 

New International Version

So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple courts, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables.

New Living Translation

Jesus made a whip from some ropes and chased them all out of the Temple. He drove out the sheep and cattle, scattered the money changers' coins over the floor, and turned over their tables.

English Standard Version

And making a whip of cords, he drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and oxen. And he poured out the coins of the money-changers and overturned their tables.

New American Standard Bible 

And He made a scourge of cords, and drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen; and He poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables;

King James Bible

And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;

[KevinG]

Since when are police brigade's "celebratory circles" done in a parade merely to protect the public?

 

The Shriners in their little cars have been deputized by DHS.

[The Nehor]

Since when are police brigade's "celebratory circles" done in a parade merely to protect the public?

 

Because if a limp-wristed slap fight begins on a float they can pull over to it and break it up.

[strappinglad]

Well, to be sensitive to all concerned , there must be a law passed that no policemen and/or vehicles be allowed to drive at the front of any parade ever. Schools have had no problem requiring such types of policies. We must be fair and equal in treatment of all types of folks and their predilections so an entire ban is the only solution.

I'm not sure what will be done if the YMCA crew decide to walk at the front of a parade . Perhaps that will need a different policy.

[carbon dioxide]

Are you calling the department a liar?

 

Why do you assume the officer credible and the police department not?

 

How do you know that leading a parade in a motorcycle is not a necessary part of his job?  How do you know that it isn't considered an essential part of safety and crowd control?  Why do you assume that it's purely ceremonial.

What would be essential about leading the parade in terms of safety.  The street would be already cleared and the roads blocked.  Keep in mind as well that this was a gay parade in Salt Lake City.  It is not like security needed to be extremely tight. 

[Scott Lloyd]

Well, to be sensitive to all concerned , there must be a law passed that no policemen and/or vehicles be allowed to drive at the front of any parade ever. Schools have had no problem requiring such types of policies. We must be fair and equal in treatment of all types of folks and their predilections so an entire ban is the only solution.

I'm not sure what will be done if the YMCA crew decide to walk at the front of a parade . Perhaps that will need a different policy.

Do you mean the Village People?

[sethpayne]

What seems unclear to some here is that this is not about "protecting" anybody. It's about putting on a show for their entertainment.

 

In fact, he offered to do something instead which, unlike doing the showy motorcycle maneuvers, actually would involve protecting the public.

 

Who decides what form of demonstration or public protest is deserving of protection?  Do not police line up during the Days of 47 parade?  Is it not a public celebration?

 

Should a public law enforcement officer who is an Evangelical refuse to do motorcycle maneuvers in the Days of 47 parade because, well, Mormon.

 

[Scott Lloyd]

Who decides what form of demonstration or public protest is deserving of protection?  Do not police line up during the Days of 47 parade?  Is it not a public celebration?

 

Should a public law enforcement officer who is an Evangelical refuse to do motorcycle maneuvers in the Days of 47 parade because, well, Mormon.

 

I wouldn't favor compelling a cop to do this for Days of '47 either if it violated his conscience.

 

You think I'm inconsistent on this, but I'm not.

 

The police chief was clearly in the wrong on this. He should apologize and cease doubling down on it.

[The Nehor]

That's what the officer says. He seems credible and to be a man of integrity. I'm taking his word for it.

 

The initial statement from the Police Department, on the other hand, sounds like the sort of self-serving bureaucratese a PR person might engage in just to get inquiring news media off their back.

Why do you think he is credible and has integrity? Because he is LDS? Because he agrees with you?

If I were in charge of the police department I would do the same thing. With a possible lawsuit they should avoid making statements, that is not self-serving. It is protecting the taxpayer's money from being paid out in a lawsuit.

[The Nehor]

Everyone seems to want the police never to participate in a public event, just like those PC mormons to ruin everything for everyone else so they can do what they want. [/sarcasm]

Edited February 28, 2015 by The Nehor

[bluebell]

Everyone seems to want the police never to participate in a public event, just like those PC mormons to ruin everything for everyone else so they can do what they want. [/sarcasm]

 

Speaking for myself, I don't want the police to be forced to celebrate an event they don't agree with.  I fully support police being forced to do their duties, regardless of how they feel about the beliefs or people involved.

 

But none of us knows enough about this situation to claim that one person or another is lying.  That's why it'll be really interesting to see how this plays out in court, where actual evidence is presented and not just news articles.

[Scott Lloyd]

Why do you think he is credible and has integrity? Because he is LDS? Because he agrees with you?

No.

Why are you libeling the man? Because he disagrees with you?

Why in subsequent quoted statements hasn't Burbank sustained the initial report that came from the police department? Is it because it was inaccurate? Does that make you angry? Is that the reason you accuse me of commenting in bad faith when I say the officer strikes me as a man of integrity?

[Yirgacheffe]

What would be essential about leading the parade in terms of safety.  The street would be already cleared and the roads blocked.  Keep in mind as well that this was a gay parade in Salt Lake City.  It is not like security needed to be extremely tight. 

Our streets aren't cleared before the parade gets there, there are always people standing in the street along the route before the parade begins and kids running back and forth from one side to the other.  The street isn't cleared until the parade starts and it starts with motorcycle police and they tell people to get back. 

[Yirgacheffe]

If you read it then you must have missed the part where he said he could have handled the situation better and that he was not diplomatic when he had to talk to superiors about it.

Otherwise you would have know that he never claimed to be non confrontational or calm.

Why are people surprised when their lack of diplomacy when interacting with supervisors leads them to be disciplined?

[The Nehor]

No.

Why are you libeling the man? Because he disagrees with you?

Why in subsequent quoted statements hasn't Burbank sustained the initial report that came from the police department? Is it because it was inaccurate? Does that make you angry? Is that the reason you accuse me of commenting in bad faith when I say the officer strikes me as a man of integrity?

 

No, because I think he is playing games with the facts. Libel requires that the accusation be untrue.

 

I have no emotional involvement in this case. I consider it silly. I consider the man bringing the case to be silly. I consider the whole thing a waste of government funds.

 

No the reason I suggested you might be commenting in bad faith is that I think it likely you are commenting in bad faith.

[Scott Lloyd]

Why are people surprised when their lack of diplomacy when interacting with supervisors leads them to be disciplined?

Was he suspended for being undiplomatic? That hasn't come out in anything I've seen.

[Yirgacheffe]

These has been a bit said by his boss.  Seems to me if there was any hint of a previous problem with the officer, that would be a much better issue to try and get him to be disciplined on than attempting discrimination…especially if the only thing he hadn't wanted to do was be in the front of the parade.

 

Found a video, don't know if this shows what he was talking about, but given there are motorcycles immediately following the police bikes, it certainly looks to me that the police are there as openers to the parade, not just security.  There is also later on the bike cops that are there as part of the parade as they are waving to the crowd and going the speed of the other parade members as opposed to riding on the side against the flow as I saw some in a 2014 video (but that did not have anything of the motorcycles so didn't link to it).  I didn't watch the whole thing so, there was material in the 2014 that I felt I wouldn't recommend to others to watch (lack and type of clothing, sexual dancing), but not so much in this one…but be warned it is certainly possible.

 

 

I don't see how any organization can be part of a parade without demonstrating support for the purpose of the parade, even though I can see where there is no reason they would have to be assumed to supporting each individual in the parade itself.  But the purpose of the parade was to promote Gay Pride and that include in my understanding pride in the diversity of lifestyles.

Every parade I've been to the police "lead the parade" they also control the speed of the parade, I've seen the police leaders come to a stop wait a minute or two and start up again.  They also, like I said have cleared people out of the street so the parade could continue safely.  The clearing of the streets has to be done a lot in our little annual flower parade because until the the floats, firetrucks, marching bands and scouts actually arrive it's more like a street festival than a parade.

[Yirgacheffe]

Was he suspended for being undiplomatic? That hasn't come out in anything I've seen.

I didn't say he was suspended for lack of diplomacy, but if that's the way you approach your boss discipline is probably much more likely, and the use of diplomacy is more likely to get you what you want. 

[tonie]

That's what the officer says. He seems credible and to be a man of integrity. I'm taking his word for it.

 

...

 

Here's a link to the Deseret News article. Chief Burbank is quoted therein. Which of his quoted comments indicate that the choreographed motorcycle maneuvers are "an essential part of safety and crowd control"? Here was an opportunity for him to say so if it were true; apparently he chose not to.

 

Instead, the message that comes across to me is that "you are to do the duties as assigned. And those duties cover a broad range of activities" (emphasis mine). Never mind that some of the duties might not have anything in particular to do with -- or even remotely connected to -- public safety.

 

It is interesting that you accuse others of libel, but seem to have no qualms about suggesting another isn't being truthful.

 

One truth still stands though, the "celebratory circles" is the personal opinion of the former officer. For all we currently know, the "celebratory cirlces" were standard formations required by limited space rate of travel.  "Choerographed maneuvers" reads like new speak. Just about any security formation, could be called "choreographed maneuvers".

 

An interesting quote from Moutsos:

“I asked my supervisor, ‘What if an African American officer didn’t want to ride in front of a KKK parade?’.

 

What is telling from the quote is that the Moutsos did not ask "What if a black officer was asked to be a participant." and it is telling that the question did not ask about "celebratory circles". If Moutsos issue hinges on being forced to be a participant, why pose dissimilar hypothetical.

 

Another interesting quote that cast a different light on the situation is that Moutsos, said he agreed to intitial assignment a day or two after requesting a change. But by the time he had agreed he was already being placed on leave.

Edited February 28, 2015 by tonie

[Scott Lloyd]

A good treatment of this story in the L.A. Times here:

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-utah-officer-gay-pride-20150226-story.html

I didn't know until now that he was one of the SLPD officers who took the call when the gay men were detained for kissing on the Church Plaza at Main Street a few years ago. It seems he handled that incident very well, defused the tension, earned the respect of the men who were arrested. One of the headlines at the time even said he sided with the accused.

Sure doesn't sound like the hot-headed bigot incapable of doing his duty that the police chief is making him out to be. The more I read about this, the clearer it is that Burbank overreacted and made the environment so hostile it would be impossible for the officer to continue working there.

Yet another example of political correctness run amok. Political correctness might, in fact, turn out to be the great tyrant of our age.

Edited February 28, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

It is interesting that you accuse others of libel, but seem to have no qualms about suggesting another isn't being truthful.

 

Earlier in this thread, you repeatedly said this:

 

Here is a statement from an article published a week after the incident:

 

"Salt Lake City police said last week that the officer was placed on leave for refusing to provide traffic control and security for the annual Utah Pride Parade."

 

This has been contradicted by Officer Moutsos, who said he was quite willing to provide traffic control and security, but not be part of the show. He would even have relented and taken the initial assignment if it had not been possible to trade. In this, he has not been contradicted by Police Chief Burbank, who has had every opportunity to do so by now. Instead, Burbank's line seems to be that he expects his officers to do what they're told without question, regardless of what it is.

 

Now, at this late stage, it appears the police department is no longer standing by the statement you quoted above. What else am I to conclude other than that it was untruthful? At this point, that seems obvious on its face.

 

On the other hand, The Nehor, for no good reason and with no other basis than his own conjecture, has called the officer a liar several times now. He has repeatedly made statements on this thread that betray a lack of familiarity with the essential facts of the story.

 

Yes, he is libeling the man. And he gets more obnoxious about it with each post.

One truth still stands though, the "celebratory circles" is the personal opinion of the former officer. For all we currently know, the "celebratory cirlces" were standard formations required by limited space rate of travel.  "Choerographed maneuvers" reads like new speak. Just about any security formation, could be called "choreographed maneuvers".

 

For many years, I've attended the Days of '47 parade in Salt Lake City. I've seen the routine the motorcycle cops do. "Choreographed maneuvers" is a highly apt description for it; I can't think of a better. But it would not apply to "just about any security formation." 

 

What they do is very showy. And it's a crowd pleaser that always gets applause. But I don't see how it could reasonably be regarded as having anything to do with providing security or traffic control.

 

An interesting quote from Moutsos:

“I asked my supervisor, ‘What if an African American officer didn’t want to ride in front of a KKK parade?’.

 

What is telling from the quote is that the Moutsos did not ask "What if a black officer was asked to be a participant." and it is telling that the question did not ask about "celebratory circles". If Moutsos issue hinges on being forced to be a participant, why pose dissimilar hypothetical.

 

 

 

It is not dissimilar. It's an apt comparison. In either case the officer would be compelled to engage in behavior that could well be perceived as support for the thing to which he objects. It would be unjust to require a black officer to do that at a KKK rally; it is similarly unjust to require someone with Moutsos's convictions to do it at a "gay pride" parade.

 

Another interesting quote that cast a different light on the situation is that Moutsos, said he agreed to intitial assignment a day or two after requesting a change. But by the time he had agreed he was already being placed on leave.

 

So you as much as acknowledge, then, that by his own account he wasn't being intransigent about this. He would have filled the initial assignment had there not been anyone else available to cover it.

 

If he so agreed, why did Burbank go ahead and suspend him? He sounds more and more like a hot-headed superviser hell-bent on making an example out of someone who (in his eyes) dared to cross him.

[Scott Lloyd]

I didn't say he was suspended for lack of diplomacy, but if that's the way you approach your boss discipline is probably much more likely, and the use of diplomacy is more likely to get you what you want. 

But it appears it wasn't just a matter of him not getting what he wanted. He was suspended for even asking. And the environment subsequently was made so intolerable for him that he felt he couldn't work there anymore.

 

He said he could have been more diplomatic in his interactions; most of us could improve in that respect wherever conflict is involved. It's difficult to keep your cool when your freedom of conscience is at stake. Do you really think, from what can be known at this point, that his manner was so overbearing that it warranted his having been, in effect, forced from his job?

[Yirgacheffe]

But it appears it wasn't just a matter of him not getting what he wanted. He was suspended for even asking. And the environment subsequently was made so intolerable for him that he felt he couldn't work there anymore.

 

He said he could have been more diplomatic in his interactions; most of us could improve in that respect wherever conflict is involved. It's difficult to keep your cool when your freedom of conscience is at stake. Do you really think, from what can be known at this point, that his manner was so overbearing that it warranted his having been, in effect, forced from his job?

I think he started the pissing contest.