tonie Posted February 27, 2015 Posted February 27, 2015 (edited) Of course that's what they are going to say....But did you even read the statement by the Officer in the OP. He told the full story, that he was entirely willing to do other security at the parade. Leading a parade in a motorcycle (which is what he was asked to do) is not a necessary part of his job. IT's a "ceremony" action, zero to do with security.Or are you calling the officer a liar? Of course that's what he is going to say....But did you even read the statement by the SLC PD? Or are you calling the SLC PD a liar? Riding out front, ensuring that streets are clear, is not a "ceremonial" action. And only a complete bafoon would think that police clearing streets in front of a parade demonstrates that the individual officers were celebrating the speech/conduct of the parade. Edited February 27, 2015 by tonie
williamsmith Posted February 27, 2015 Posted February 27, 2015 Considering the articles are inconsistent on whether the motorcycles are entertainment or security (I lean towards the latter) I am not sure the distinction means anything. The articles I have read say the officer thought it was a part of the celebration and make it sound like most do not. That's because it is part of the celebration. Officers in a parade put up road blocks, direct traffic, and crowd control.Ceremony Motorcycles has simply become a tradition in support of certain patriotic etc. type parades.They have ZERO to do with actual "security" for the parade. Again, I know what I'm talking about. 1
tonie Posted February 27, 2015 Posted February 27, 2015 That's because it is part of the celebration. Officers in a parade put up road blocks, direct traffic, and crowd control.Ceremony Motorcycles has simply become a tradition in support of certain patriotic etc. type parades.They have ZERO to do with actual "security" for the parade. Again, I know what I'm talking about. CFR
williamsmith Posted February 27, 2015 Posted February 27, 2015 (edited) Of course that's what he is going to say....But did you even read the statement by the SLC PD? Or are you calling the SLC PD a liar? Riding out front, ensuring that streets are clear, is not a "ceremonial" action. And only complete bafoon that police clearing streets would consider that the individual officer were celebrating the speech/conduct of the parade. Police do not ride out front to ensure the streets are clear. They do what I said above. Only for Heads of State, Presidents, etc. do police ride out in front of something to provide security.Absolutely I'm calling the SLC Police Chief a liar. I actually know police protocal and practices, you don't. A parade in which people are walking, and there are some slow moving floats etc., has zero need for police motorcycles in front of it.Roads are already blocked off, officers posted at various checkpoints, etc. Do you think if cop "cars" were leading a parade, that they are providing "security"?The motocycle thing is NOTHING BUT "Ceremony". Period.An Officer has every right to not do something that is not actually his job. And anyone trying to force that is themselves the bigot. Edited February 27, 2015 by williamsmith 1
The Nehor Posted February 27, 2015 Posted February 27, 2015 Exactly.... Ask a Black Officer to lead a KKK rally in a Motorcycle, and they will laugh at you, and btw, they won't be accused of descrimination or not doing their job as an Officer.But a White Religious person will be accused of both by liberals and anti-mormons, which clearly the police chief in question is one or both.Any actual "reasonable" police chief will understand the differences between security, and leading a parade in ceremony. The officer had every right to decline that position, and the Police Chief should be sued. I would crucify the bigoted you know what in court.The comparison is flawed. The KKK was not big on parades. If they were part of parade safety is having cops in the front. It is not usually part of the celebration. It is to make sure the parade does not hit anything and that people get out of the way.Seems like everyone is willing to crucify the guy whose side has not yet been told. This kind of thinking is also why the Church gets crucified over disciplinary councils because our leaders keep quiet. I guess we no better at avoiding this kind of vilification. 1
The Nehor Posted February 27, 2015 Posted February 27, 2015 Police do not ride out front to ensure the streets are clear. They do what I said above. Only for Heads of State, Presidents, etc. do police ride out in front of something to provide security.Absolutely I'm calling the SLC Police Chief a liar. I actually know police protocal and practices, you don't.Since we are calling people liars how do we know you aren't a liar? 1
tonie Posted February 27, 2015 Posted February 27, 2015 Police do not ride out front to ensure the streets are clear. They do what I said above. CFR Only for Heads of State, Presidents, etc. do police ride out in front of something to provide security. CFR I actually know police protocal and practices, you don't CFR that I do not know police protocal and practices. CFR that you do know Salt Lake City Police Department police protocal and practices concerning:the assignment of officers to details;Motorcycles details during parades..
Anijen Posted February 27, 2015 Posted February 27, 2015 Considering the articles are inconsistent on whether the motorcycles are entertainment or security (I lean towards the latter) I am not sure the distinction means anything. The articles I have read say the officer thought it was a part of the celebration and make it sound like most do not.I am just going by my experience as an onlooker at a parade (which is about once, maybe twice a year). I see the police doing difficult tight grouped figure eights and other cool looking coordinated stunts, I am entertained. Perhaps I am in the minority but imo that weights more on the entertainment scale than security.
stemelbow Posted February 27, 2015 Posted February 27, 2015 Still not sure what he thought he was in opposition to? "There ain't no gay people"? "Gay people can't go around town showing others that it's okay to be gay"? Is he opposed to the idea that these gay people might be sexually active or something? "If I ride my police motorcycle in the parade people will think I think its okay that these gay people might actually be sexually active...with each other. Somebody might tell my kids that I support gay people." I don't get the problem. Hasn't been framed very well for me.
williamsmith Posted February 27, 2015 Posted February 27, 2015 The comparison is flawed. The KKK was not big on parades. If they were part of parade safety is having cops in the front. It is not usually part of the celebration. It is to make sure the parade does not hit anything and that people get out of the way.Seems like everyone is willing to crucify the guy whose side has not yet been told. This kind of thinking is also why the Church gets crucified over disciplinary councils because our leaders keep quiet. I guess we no better at avoiding this kind of vilification. The comparison is not flawed. The KKK even today still have parades.Motorcycles further would not be used in front of a KKK parade. They are unweidly, completely worthless in the situation.Officers instead again, set up check points, would have officers along the route, maybe walk to the sides beside the group (but not with) etc. You simply don't know what you're talking about.
williamsmith Posted February 27, 2015 Posted February 27, 2015 (edited) Still not sure what he thought he was in opposition to?"There ain't no gay people"?"Gay people can't go around town showing others that it's okay to be gay"?Is he opposed to the idea that these gay people might be sexually active or something?"If I ride my police motorcycle in the parade people will think I think its okay that these gay people might actually be sexually active...with each other. Somebody might tell my kids that I support gay people."I don't get the problem. Hasn't been framed very well for me. The "why" was clearly stated in the OP.He didn't want to play a ceremonial role in leading a parade in a motorcycle, like occurs in some other parades as a ceremonial support, especially in relation to Patriotic parades.To him, and he was correct, it was a form of support for the parade, having nothing to do with security, which is part of his job as an officer. What's hard to understand about that? I wouldn't want to lead a parade of Nambla Pedophiles either. Should an officer be forced to lead such a parade, which is outside of the scope of security? And to the person asking for CFR. I've worked in and with Law Enforcement and the Military for most of my life in various capacity's. I know security.It's in fact what I'm an expert in. It's not your business what I actually do. However to be more clear, on the civilian side I've worked closely with dozens of Sheriff and Police departments, as well as the prison system in relation to security matters. Edited February 27, 2015 by williamsmith
tonie Posted February 27, 2015 Posted February 27, 2015 (edited) williamsmith, Since you proclaim to be an expert, what are the protocals and practices of the Salt Lake City Police Department concerning parades? Will you please confirm or deny, whether the Special Operations Bureau of the Salt Lake City Police department works special events, to include parades, funerals, sporting events, runs, and more. Edited February 27, 2015 by tonie
tonie Posted February 27, 2015 Posted February 27, 2015 And to the person asking for CFR. I've worked in and with Law Enforcement and the Military for most of my life in various capacity's. I know security.It's in fact what I'm an expert in. It's not your business what I actually do. well, there are 4 CFRs, and you have only addressed 1. So there are 3 outstanding. As for not knowing others business, you do not know mine, so do not profess to claim what I know or do not know.
williamsmith Posted February 27, 2015 Posted February 27, 2015 (edited) Then keep your paws off my business. I'm relaying what I know from direct experience and knowledge.I have no interest in your games. No actual "good" police chief would accuse an officer of bigotry who simply did not want to participate in the ceremonial part of a parade that has nothing actually to do with security.We are talking about security here. We are not talking about SLCPD's ceremonial practices, which is all motocycle cops in front of a parade are, for show, period. Edited February 27, 2015 by williamsmith 1
stemelbow Posted February 27, 2015 Posted February 27, 2015 The "why" was clearly stated in the OP. He didn't want to play a ceremonial role in leading a parade in a motorcycle, like occurs in some other parades as a ceremonial support, especially in relation to Patriotic parades. To him, and he was correct, it was a form of support for the parade, having nothing to do with security, which is part of his job as an officer. What's hard to understand about that? I don't see a reason why he won't support it listed. He doesn't support gay people? they are just people. Is he so opposed to gay people that if someone hurts a gay person he won't do his job and stop it? Of course not. He supports gay people, just like the rest of us.
Scott Lloyd Posted February 27, 2015 Posted February 27, 2015 You have a strange fantasy life in your head Pahoran.No, he's using argumentum ad absurdum to point out the flaws in pogi's comparison.
Scott Lloyd Posted February 27, 2015 Posted February 27, 2015 Police riding in the parade does mean the individual offices are approving of "gays", whatever that means. Maybe not to you. But it could very well appear that way to others. It strikes me that his issue is all about perception. Are not offices committed to protecting and servicing the public? Protecting people does not include entertaining them at someone else's whim. Maybe this officer should think about is attitudes towards inclusiveness and what it means to be a public servant. Maybe you should think more seriously about preservation of freedom of conscience in a supposedly free and democratic society.
Scott Lloyd Posted February 27, 2015 Posted February 27, 2015 No, I could be wrong but I doubt it. The only person who has shared much information has every reason to be biased. I consider taking everything he says at face value more then a little nuts.The police chief was given every opportunity to respond -- and he did, rather vociferously. Is he verifying your imagined scenario?
bluebell Posted February 27, 2015 Posted February 27, 2015 (edited) I don't see a reason why he won't support it listed. He doesn't support gay people? they are just people. Is he so opposed to gay people that if someone hurts a gay person he won't do his job and stop it? Of course not. He supports gay people, just like the rest of us. From what he's said it seems that he doesn't support the celebration of being gay and all that the parade illustrates that being gay implies. He said that he has gay friends and they don't have problems with each other and that he has no disagreement with 95% of their lives. He compared it to how he would not want to be in a parade that celebrated abortions either. It seems that it's not the people but the celebration of certain choices that he did not want to appear to condone. Edited February 27, 2015 by bluebell
stemelbow Posted February 27, 2015 Posted February 27, 2015 From what he's said it seems that he doesn't support the celebration of being gay and all that the parade illustrates that being gay implies. He said that he has gay friends and they don't have problems with each other and that he has no disagreement with 95% of their lives. He compared it to how he would not want to be in a parade that celebrated abortions either. It seems that it's not the people but the celebration of certain choices that he did not want to appear to condone. Being gay is not a choice. He knows that, apparently, since he has good gay friends. Does he think supporting his gay friends means he thinks all they do is not sinful? I personally think all my friends sin, but that doesn't stop me from celebrating who they are.
Scott Lloyd Posted February 27, 2015 Posted February 27, 2015 Are you sure you want to claim someone is making false representations? June 2014: "Salt Lake City police said last week that the officer was placed on leave for refusing to provide traffic control and security for the annual Utah Pride Parade."You're just going to ignore information that has come out since that time then?
Scott Lloyd Posted February 27, 2015 Posted February 27, 2015 Of course that's what he is going to say....But did you even read the statement by the SLC PD? Or are you calling the SLC PD a liar? Riding out front, ensuring that streets are clear, is not a "ceremonial" action. And only a complete bafoon would think that police clearing streets in front of a parade demonstrates that the individual officers were celebrating the speech/conduct of the parade.The police chief has been interviewed much more recently than that. Is he sticking by that preliminary statement? 1
stemelbow Posted February 27, 2015 Posted February 27, 2015 Maybe not to you. But it could very well appear that way to others. It strikes me that his issue is all about perception. I missed sunstones post. He's saying pretty much what I am, it seems. Thanks for quoting. I just got Bluebell telling me he has plenty of friends that are gay and he has no problems with 95% of their lives. Somehow he thinks it'll be perceived by someone that he approves of 100% of their lives if he drives his police officer motorcycle in a parade. Well that doesnt' make much sense if you consider not one person, I've ever seen, would say he/she supports any other person's life 100%. I don't know any who would say 95%, to tell the truth.
Scott Lloyd Posted February 27, 2015 Posted February 27, 2015 Being gay is not a choice. He knows that, apparently, since he has good gay friends.Whether or not to engage in homosexual behavior is a choice. Does he think supporting his gay friends means he thinks all they do is not sinful? I personally think all my friends sin, but that doesn't stop me from celebrating who they are. Do you support them as sinners, or do you support them as human beings who have the capacity to overcome and rise above their sinful behavior if they so choose?
Scott Lloyd Posted February 27, 2015 Posted February 27, 2015 I missed sunstones post. He's saying pretty much what I am, it seems. Thanks for quoting. You're just going to ignore my rebuttal to it then?
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