rockpond Posted February 6, 2015 Posted February 6, 2015 Perhaps you just did. Would you like to claim the honor of naming it? Rockpond's Law? I won't oppose if you want to call it Rockpond's Law. I'm definitely guilty of it. But I've also tried to avoid it. 2
Popular Post thesometimesaint Posted February 6, 2015 Popular Post Posted February 6, 2015 I think that when anyone denies the Truth Claims of the Church they have already left. The Church just makes it formal. 6
JLHPROF Posted February 6, 2015 Posted February 6, 2015 I think that when anyone denies the Truth Claims of the Church they have already left. The Church just makes it formal. Never, from this time henceforth and forever, sustain a man, men, a people, a community, or anybody that operates against or forsakes the Kingdom of God.--Brigham Young 1
KevinG Posted February 6, 2015 Posted February 6, 2015 Godwin's Law - Rockpond's corollary The longer a thread runs on Mormon Dialogue and Discussion forum the more likely it is to end up a discussion about polygamy, race and priesthood, or polygamy. Packer's quotient The more a discussion involves sex and sexuality the more likely someone will find a quote from Boyd K. Packer written sometime before 1974 and insert it into the discussion. 3
Mars Posted February 6, 2015 Posted February 6, 2015 My friend is African American, bi-sexual, and in a polygamous marriage. His Rabbi, Bishop Mohammed El-Hamoui, swears it's totally legit. And he was ordained a High Priest last week during the Wiccan festival of Vernal Equinox. 2
ksfisher Posted February 6, 2015 Posted February 6, 2015 My friend is African American, bi-sexual, and in a polygamous marriage. His Rabbi, Bishop Mohammed El-Hamoui, swears it's totally legit. And he was ordained a High Priest last week during the Wiccan festival of Vernal Equinox. I'd believe all this except for the fact that the vernal equinox isn't until March 20th this year.
Kenngo1969 Posted February 6, 2015 Posted February 6, 2015 (edited) http://www.sltrib.com/home/2146441-155/mormon-facing-excommunication-makes-his-living Oh no! The Big, Bad, Mean, Evil Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints wants to take away John Dehlin's very livelihood! (Personally, I say, no it doesn't: he can make his living any way he likes, but he cannot expect a church he actively opposes while doing so to stand idly by and do nothing with respect to his membership.) Can an argument be made that Dehlin is engaging in a form of priestcraft? Why or why not? Does the fact that he makes a not-inconsiderable sum of money from his pursuit, much of which can be said to directly contravene the core teachings and truth claims of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints make a difference, in your mind, in how the Church should treat him? Why or why not? Edited February 6, 2015 by Kenngo1969
rockpond Posted February 7, 2015 Posted February 7, 2015 Godwin's Law - Rockpond's corollary The longer a thread runs on Mormon Dialogue and Discussion forum the more likely it is to end up a discussion about polygamy, race and priesthood, or gay marriage. Packer's quotient The more a discussion involves sex and sexuality the more likely someone will find a quote from Boyd K. Packer written sometime before 1974 and insert it into the discussion.I like it! I made one small correction in the quote above (your second reference to polygamy should be gay marriage). 1
rockpond Posted February 7, 2015 Posted February 7, 2015 http://www.sltrib.com/home/2146441-155/mormon-facing-excommunication-makes-his-living Oh no! The Big, Bad, Mean, Evil Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints wants to take away John Dehlin's very livelihood! (Personally, I say, no it doesn't: he can make his living any way he likes, but he cannot expect a church he actively opposes while doing so to stand idly by and do nothing with respect to his membership.) Can an argument be made that Dehlin is engaging in a form of priestcraft? Why or why not? Does the fact that he makes a not-inconsiderable sum of money from his pursuit, much of which can be said to directly contravene the core teachings and truth claims of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints make a difference, in your mind, in how the Church should treat him? Why or why not?Nah, not priestcraft. Dehlin doesn't connect contributions to salvation. Anyone, including you, can listen for as long as you want for nothing more than the cost of your own internet connection. 1
KevinG Posted February 8, 2015 Posted February 8, 2015 I like it! I made one small correction in the quote above (your second reference to polygamy should be gay marriage). thanks! My mind skipped a beat.
Teancum Posted February 8, 2015 Posted February 8, 2015 (edited) I think that when anyone denies the Truth Claims of the Church they have already left. The Church just makes it formal.. Can't the church tolerate members who question or doubt? How vocal can they be before they get kicked out? Elder Christoferson's recent comment on how much a person can differ in opinions on things like women and the priesthood or gay marriage and. OT be disciplined or lose a recommend seems to leave room....more room than is indicated by the comments above .I suggest this as food for thought:http://latterdayspence.blogspot.com/2011/12/heretical-beliefs-and-feeling-welcome.htmlThere is a great story on pages 55-56 in “David O. McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism” in which Joseph Fielding Smith and Harold B. Lee were moving to excommunicate Sterling McMurrin for his unorthodox beliefs. When President McKay heard about it, he phoned McMurrin and asked for a private meeting. In that meeting, McKay was never critical nor disapproving. He told McMurrin: “They cannot do this to you! They cannot put you on trial!” and that if they did, he (the President of the Church) would be McMurrin’s “first witness”.McMurrin said: “I should have been censured for being such a heretic, and here President McKay wasn’t even interested in raising a single question about my beliefs, but simply insisted that a man in this Church had a right to believe as he pleased. And he stressed that in several ways… It was really a quite remarkable experience, to have the President of the Church talking in such genuinely liberal terms.”I love that story. It makes me really love and respect President McKay. Would that we could have more members like him today.Author Greg Prince later elaborated on that experience on a Mormon Stories podcast. He said that during that same visit with Sterling McMurrin, President McKay asked a series of rhetorical questions such as “What is it that a man must believe to be a member of the church? Or what is it that a man is not allowed to believe to stay a member of the Church?” He didn’t answer either question, but they’re good rhetorical questions. This was in 1954 when McMurrin told McKay that it looked like they were going to try to throw him out of the Church. McKay said that if they do “I will be the first witness in your defense”, and when word of this got out the excommunication charges were dropped. That’s some serious compassion from the President of the Church. And apparently he was as tolerant of those on the far conservative side as he was of those, like McMurrin, on the liberal side. Very cool example of pitching a big tent and welcoming everyone in. Edited February 8, 2015 by Teancum
Teancum Posted February 8, 2015 Posted February 8, 2015 (edited) http://www.sltrib.com/home/2146441-155/mormon-facing-excommunication-makes-his-livingOh no! The Big, Bad, Mean, Evil Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints wants to take away John Dehlin's very livelihood! (Personally, I say, no it doesn't: he can make his living any way he likes, but he cannot expect a church he actively opposes while doing so to stand idly by and do nothing with respect to his membership.)Can an argument be made that Dehlin is engaging in a form of priestcraft? Why or why not? Does the fact that he makes a not-inconsiderable sum of money from his pursuit, much of which can be said to directly contravene the core teachings and truth claims of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints make a difference, in your mind, in how the Church should treat him? Why or why not?Do LDS GAs practice priestcraft? Edited February 8, 2015 by Teancum
DragonLancer Posted February 8, 2015 Posted February 8, 2015 .Can't the church tolerate members who question or doubt? How vocal can they be before they get kicked out? Elder Christoferson's recent comment on how much a person can differ in opinions on things like women and the priesthood or gay marriage and. OT be disciplined or lose a recommend seems to leave room....more room than is indicated by the comments above .I suggest this as food for thought:http://latterdayspence.blogspot.com/2011/12/heretical-beliefs-and-feeling-welcome.htmlThere is a great story on pages 55-56 in “David O. McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism” in which Joseph Fielding Smith and Harold B. Lee were moving to excommunicate Sterling McMurrin for his unorthodox beliefs. When President McKay heard about it, he phoned McMurrin and asked for a private meeting. In that meeting, McKay was never critical nor disapproving. He told McMurrin: “They cannot do this to you! They cannot put you on trial!” and that if they did, he (the President of the Church) would be McMurrin’s “first witness”.McMurrin said: “I should have been censured for being such a heretic, and here President McKay wasn’t even interested in raising a single question about my beliefs, but simply insisted that a man in this Church had a right to believe as he pleased. And he stressed that in several ways… It was really a quite remarkable experience, to have the President of the Church talking in such genuinely liberal terms.”I love that story. It makes me really love and respect President McKay. Would that we could have more members like him today.Author Greg Prince later elaborated on that experience on a Mormon Stories podcast. He said that during that same visit with Sterling McMurrin, President McKay asked a series of rhetorical questions such as “What is it that a man must believe to be a member of the church? Or what is it that a man is not allowed to believe to stay a member of the Church?”He didn’t answer either question, but they’re good rhetorical questions. This was in 1954 when McMurrin told McKay that it looked like they were going to try to throw him out of the Church. McKay said that if they do “I will be the first witness in your defense”, and when word of this got out the excommunication charges were dropped. That’s some serious compassion from the President of the Church. And apparently he was as tolerant of those on the far conservative side as he was of those, like McMurrin, on the liberal side. Very cool example of pitching a big tent and welcoming everyone in. There is a clear distinction between a "heretic" and an apostate that "thumps the tub" who actively opposes the Church and continues with his actions after having been warned. The Church really could care less what people's personal beliefs are to a large degree. They only care about people like Dehlin that insist on exercising their freedom to say what they want, who expect that just because they have a constitutional right, that means that they can maintain membership in the Church without consequence to that membership. Private organizations have rules. Civil rights do not equate to religious organizational rules.
Teancum Posted February 8, 2015 Posted February 8, 2015 There is a clear distinction between a "heretic" and an apostate that "thumps the tub" who actively opposes the Church and continues with his actions after having been warned. The Church really could care less what people's personal beliefs are to a large degree. They only care about people like Dehlin that insist on exercising their freedom to say what they want, who expect that just because they have a constitutional right, that means that they can maintain membership in the Church without consequence to that membership. Private organizations have rules. Civil rights do not equate to religious organizational rules.So have your beliefs but don't say anything unless it is the party line? I undertone where Dehiln has crossed the line for the church. I think q more matured religion copes with such dissent better. So how much can someone say in the lds church if it does not agree to the the orthodox view? To whom can they say it? Where can they write it? What crosses the line?
DragonLancer Posted February 8, 2015 Posted February 8, 2015 So have your beliefs but don't say anything unless it is the party line? I undertone where Dehiln has crossed the line for the church. I think q more matured religion copes with such dissent better.So how much can someone say in the lds church if it does not agree to the the orthodox view? To whom can they say it? Where can they write it? What crosses the line? Actually, say what you want, but don't make a big deal about it. And if you are warned that you've crossed a line, then say, "I'll do whatever you require of me." And so if they say jump, then you say how high. It is not very hard to avoid discipline. It's a pretty simple formula.
ERayR Posted February 8, 2015 Posted February 8, 2015 Actually, say what you want, but don't make a big deal about it. And if you are warned that you've crossed a line, then say, "I'll do whatever you require of me." And so if they say jump, then you say how high. It is not very hard to avoid discipline. It's a pretty simple formula. It always amazes me how somebody can put their heart and soul into finding the perfect house and once they move in they can't wait to get it remodeled so that it is exactly like the one they sold to get this one. 1
DragonLancer Posted February 8, 2015 Posted February 8, 2015 It always amazes me how somebody can put their heart and soul into finding the perfect house and once they move in they can't wait to get it remodeled so that it is exactly like the one they sold to get this one. I don't understand. Please explain.
ERayR Posted February 8, 2015 Posted February 8, 2015 I don't understand. Please explain. There are those who join the church and then want to change the church and its practices and doctrines to be like the church the left to join the LDS Church. 1
Teancum Posted February 9, 2015 Posted February 9, 2015 Actually, say what you want, but don't make a big deal about it. And if you are warned that you've crossed a line, then say, "I'll do whatever you require of me." And so if they say jump, then you say how high. It is not very hard to avoid discipline. It's a pretty simple formula.Say what I want to whom, where and how much? See the prophet is it is pretty fuzzy . Seems more like keep your mouth shut.As for saying I'LL DO WHATEVER YOU REQUIRE OF ME and asking how high to jump....pure sillliness. I would need to know what that means and with the local lay clergy lottery who knows what you would get.
thesometimesaint Posted February 9, 2015 Posted February 9, 2015 (edited) Say what I want to whom, where and how much? See the prophet is it is pretty fuzzy . Seems more like keep your mouth shut.As for saying I'LL DO WHATEVER YOU REQUIRE OF ME and asking how high to jump....pure sillliness. I would need to know what that means and with the local lay clergy lottery who knows what you would get. I think there are non negotiable Truth Claims of the Church.The reality of God. his Son Jesus the Christ, and the Holy Ghost.That Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God.That the Book of Mormon peoples were real people.That The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has all the authority from God it needs to do the work of God. Mr, Dehlin for his own reasons has chosen to publicly reject those Truth Claims. He has already left the Church religiously and emotionally . The Church has just made it official physically. He is welcome to attend our meetings, and if he feels so inclined to seek readmission to the Church. I hope for his own sake he does so, but it doesn't look promising. Edited February 9, 2015 by thesometimesaint
mormonnewb Posted February 9, 2015 Posted February 9, 2015 It always amazes me how somebody can put their heart and soul into finding the perfect house and once they move in they can't wait to get it remodeled so that it is exactly like the one they sold to get this one. I love your analogy because that is exactly what most of us do when we buy a new home. We replace the carpet, the drapes, kitchen cabinets, etc. In fact, there are two new families in our ward that haven't even moved in yet as they are awaiting major remodels on the homes they just purchased. We buy the home because it contains some essential elements (e.g., proximity to good schools, the right number of bedrooms/bathrooms, cute ward bishop, etc.). However, everything else is negotiable. Of course, in most cases, we don't try to make it look exactly like our old homes, but we do bring along some of our favorite items from the old home. Why do you think someone would choose a church any differently? If we waited until we found the "perfect" home, we'd spend our lives in a cardboard box. Likewise, if we waited until we found the "perfect" church, we'd be spiritually destitute. So those of us who CHOOSE a church look for essential elements and then we begin to tinker around the edges. And, as for our favorite couch, the antique chair from grandma's living room, equality for women or what have you, we bring those keepsakes with us. In fact, to assume that the Church can attract millions of converts from every continent on the globe (I'm sure we must have one or two Antarcticans) and that it will remain the same as it ever was is the more puzzling position to me.
KevinG Posted February 9, 2015 Posted February 9, 2015 There is a proper way to tinker and an improper way to tinker. Proper: Pray, counsel, request, search, then wait for the answer in the Lord's way and the Lord's time... much like the West African Saints did about the priesthood when they felt it was time. Improper: Demand, protest, assume private revelation applies to all Saints, run ahead of the train because it's not leaving the station fast enough for our tastes, publicly stand in opposition to the Lord's called authorities... much like many well meaning souls throughout our history who found themselves apostate, on the outside looking in. 1
DragonLancer Posted February 9, 2015 Posted February 9, 2015 There are those who join the church and then want to change the church and its practices and doctrines to be like the church the left to join the LDS Church. Got it. Say what I want to whom, where and how much? See the prophet is it is pretty fuzzy . Seems more like keep your mouth shut.As for saying I'LL DO WHATEVER YOU REQUIRE OF ME and asking how high to jump....pure sillliness. I would need to know what that means and with the local lay clergy lottery who knows what you would get. It's not pure silliness if it is all within reason. I am of the opinion that the grand majority of bishops and stake presidents out there are reasonable. Of course there are exceptions. It's the exceptions that are a problem no doubt, but it is far less of a problem than you seem to be making out of it. And in those cases, going over that person's head to the next higher authority would be the key, because chances are, whoever is over him would be reasonable.
DragonLancer Posted February 9, 2015 Posted February 9, 2015 I think there are non negotiable Truth Claims of the Church.The reality of God. his Son Jesus the Christ, and the Holy Ghost.That Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God.That the Book of Mormon peoples were real people.That The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has all the authority from God it needs to do the work of God. Mr, Dehlin for his own reasons has chosen to publicly reject those Truth Claims. He has already left the Church religiously and emotionally . The Church has just made it official physically. He is welcome to attend our meetings, and if he feels so inclined to seek readmission to the Church. I hope for his own sake he does so, but it doesn't look promising. Dehlin may feel more welcome in a schismatic branch of Mormonism that does not have the same rules, such as Community of Christ, etc.
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