Hagoth's Sweet Potatoes - ???

[Uncle Dale]

I recall a speaker here in Hilo, claiming that our local

'uala (a variety of sweet potato) must have originally

come from what is now Columbia, in South America.

 

If I recall correctly, he said that their 'kuala has the same

gentics as our 'uala, and that the Columbian variety is

far older, historically, than our Hawaiian ones. I don't

remember which Indian tribes' languages use that word.

 

Are the sweet potatoes I had for lunch today evidence

(or "proof" as that speaker asserted) of there really

having been an ancient explorer named Hagoth?

 

UD

 

ps. They taste good with just a touch of soy sauce and

a sprinkle of turmeric and garlic powder.

Edited December 22, 2014 by Uncle Dale

[pogi]

Are the sweet potatoes I had for lunch today evidence

(or "proof" as that speaker asserted) of there really

having been an ancient explorer named Hagoth?

 

Either that or it is evidence that a migrating bird ate the seeds of a sweet potato on the mainland and pooped them in Hawaii.  Do potato's float?  Perhaps carried by tide?  Or it could have been any ancient explorer, I don't see the connection to Hagoth.

[Uncle Dale]

Either that or it is evidence that a migrating bird ate the seeds of a sweet potato on the mainland and pooped them in Hawaii.  Do potato's float?  Perhaps carried by tide?  Or it could have been any ancient explorer, I don't see the connection to Hagoth.

 

 

Yeah -- your explanation seems the more reasonable one, to me.

 

The same speaker (at the Reorganized LDS chapel) mentioned that

other Polynesians, far south of us, raise a very similar sweet potato,

which (I think) they call the the "kuumara" -- and that plant's genetics

more closely match a variety found in Peru, which the natives there

also called by that same name.

 

Hagoth, it seems, would have had to make two voyages -- one

from Columbia to Hawaii (bringing the 'uala) and another, from

Peru (bringing the kuumara) to our island neighbors in the south.

 

Wandering birds seem like a more reasonable probability --

perhaps parrots, who also brought the cognate pronunciations

from the mainland, along with those migrant sweet potato plants.

 

UD

[pogi]

Yeah -- your explanation seems the more reasonable one, to me.

 

I like the name of your thread however, would be a great name for a band!

[Uncle Dale]

I like the name of your thread however, would be a great name for a band!

 

 

If I ever write a fictional story, about life in Rexburg, Idaho in the 1950s, I'll be

sure to insert a passing mention of "Hagoth, Spud and the Sweet Taters"

playing their dulcimers and Hawaiian steel guitars at the at Teton 2nd Ward's

July 24th party.

 

I wonder if any modern readers would even catch the joke?

 

UD

[ERayR]

If I ever write a fictional story, about life in Rexburg, Idaho in the 1950s, I'll be

sure to insert a passing mention of "Hagoth, Spud and the Sweet Taters"

playing their dulcimers and Hawaiian steel guitars at the at Teton 2nd Ward's

July 24th party.

 

I wonder if any modern readers would even catch the joke?

 

UD

 

Spuds and sweet taters - only in southern Idaho.

[saemo]

I recall a speaker here in Hilo, claiming that our local

'uala (a variety of sweet potato) must have originally

come from what is now Columbia, in South America.

 

If I recall correctly, he said that their 'kuala has the same

gentics as our 'uala, and that the Columbian variety is

far older, historically, than our Hawaiian ones. I don't

remember which Indian tribes' languages use that word.

 

Are the sweet potatoes I had for lunch today evidence

(or "proof" as that speaker asserted) of there really

having been an ancient explorer named Hagoth?

 

UD

 

ps. They taste good with just a touch of soy sauce and

a sprinkle of turmeric and garlic powder.

Looks like the prevailing theory is that Polynesians made it to the Americas and returned to Polynesia. It is better accepted as a theory, rather than, pre-Columbian people of the Americas  traveling to Polynesia, since it are the Polynesians that have long been making ocean voyages and navigating to and from far flung places on the seas. There is no evidence of anyone from the Americas with the technology or navigational know-how to have made ocean voyages to Polynesia.

 

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/328/5984/1344.summary

[Hamba Tuhan]

I work in a 'sea' of Pacific historians, and one of my former PhD advisors actually just gave a paper on the sweet potato in the Pacific. In short, the sweet potato is, for now, the clearest evidence of early human contact between the Pacific Island and South America. (Natural dispersion is not considered an option for this particular plant.) As Saemo has indicated, however, most researchers (who actually accept the evidence) tend to view the likely agents to be Islanders, not necessarily because of any DNA evidence but because it seems intuitive given that the Austronesian migration covered about half of the world's surface, giving Islanders the definite seafaring edge. One of the cool things about history, however, is how often the more intuitive explanation turns out to be wrong, so who knows?

[The Nehor]

Either that or it is evidence that a migrating bird ate the seeds of a sweet potato on the mainland and pooped them in Hawaii.  Do potato's float?  Perhaps carried by tide?  Or it could have been any ancient explorer, I don't see the connection to Hagoth.

To paraphrase Monty Python:

"Are you suggesting that sweet potatos migrate?"

[Uncle Dale]

To paraphrase Monty Python:

"Are you suggesting that sweet potatos migrate?"

 

 

Well, not exactly quoting Monty Python -- but here's another reference

that some folks may find comforting:

 

February 1920, "Improvement Era" p. 283.

 

>On November 27, 1919, 310 Saints, including missionaries were admitted to the Hawaiian temple,

>at Laie, Oahu, to witness the dedicatory services. Presidents Heber J. Grant, Anthon H. Lund, and

>Rudger Clawson, were presiding. After an opening song, the dedicatory prayer which followed was

>offered by President Heber J. Grant. Among the many things said in the prayer was the following:

>

>We thank thee, that thousands and tens of thousands of the descendants of Lehi, in this favored

>land, have come to a knowledge of the gospel... We thank thee, O God, that thy faithful and diligent

>servant, President Joseph F. Smith, was moved upon, while in this land, on the birthday of thy servant

>President Brigham Young, in the year 1915, to dedicate this spot of ground for the erection of a temple

>to the Most High God.

 

The Reorganized LDS speaker I heard would have been less

impressed with anything Heber J, Grant had to say, than he

would have been, with the words spoken in prophecy by

President Frederick M. Smith, in Tahiti sometime around the

beginning of the last century. Perhaps some Hagoth fan can

help us track down the text of that "revelation."

 

That's about all I know -- except that we cannot rely upon

the genetics of today's sweet potato plants, either here in

Hawaii, or down in Samoa, or elsewhere... too much

cross-breeding has been carried out. Luckily the first

British botonists in the Pacific preserved specimens.

 

UD

 

     

[pogi]

To paraphrase Monty Python:

"Are you suggesting that sweet potatos migrate?"

 

"Not at all, it could be carried...it could grip it by the husk"

[pogi]

Heres as an article by NPR on the subject:

 

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thesalt/2013/01/22/169980441/how-the-sweet-potato-crossed-the-pacific-before-columbus

 

In the rural areas of the Philippines, people would eat whole boiled sweet potatoes like candy bars on my mission.  We would always be given some by the locals as we tracked around.  They called it kamote.  Probably came from Polynesia, no? 

[SamIam]

As sweet potatoes are considered an important staple, the idea of them being carried by Polynesians is far more practical on three counts.  The first that they are easily established in poor conditions and produce well in such conditions makes them a less worrisome new introduction. Second, seed is not a primary method of reproducing due to the varietal and complex nature of the genetics involved.  The hexaploid genetics complicate crossing and compromise consistency in seed produced plants generally manifesting much diversity compared to parent plants among other issues:

 

The hexaploid nature of the species also obviously could contribute to the general low fertility observed. Apparently a heavy load of deleterious genetic factors can be tolerated by this vegetatively propagated crop. These factors are expressed at various stages in the sexual process as low seed germination, low seedling vigor, abnormal plant types, reduced flowering, ovule abortion, ineffective pollen tube growth or embryo abortion, and poor seed set. (Jones, A., Sweet Potato, USDA –SEA, Charleston, South Carolina)

 

 

Factors such as these make the idea that a seed carried by bird is already a low probability prospect but that even if so, the reduced probability of viable seed selection reduces the expectations of success even further.  

 

Thirdly this lack of dependable diversity and seed viability encourages that sweet potatoes are best grown by using "slips". These are shoots that come up early in the growing season that are separated from the parent tuber and then planted as an individual plant. Additionally, sweet potatoes reproduce tubers based on several conditions that are best "managed conditions" by grower manipulated efforts. If there is too much water and fertilizer - lots of growth, no tubers.  Leave them attached to the parent tuber...generally no tubers or very limited. etc.

 

There are a couple of hundred varieties available through Sandhill Preservation on the net. Having grown sweet potatoes for years here in Utah, once one becomes familiar with the nuances of reproduction and growing, they are a remarkable treat to harvest from one’s own efforts-and the diversity is astounding with all of its varietal flavors and other nuances unique to each variety.

Edited December 23, 2014 by SamIam

[Robert F. Smith]

.................................................  

The same speaker (at the Reorganized LDS chapel) mentioned that other Polynesians, far south of us, raise a very similar sweet potato,

which (I think) they call the the "kuumara" -- and that plant's genetics more closely match a variety found in Peru, which the natives there

also called by that same name.

.................................................

Correct, Uncle Dale.  That name for the same tuber, along with a great many other items were part of the case made long ago by Thor Heyerdahl for contact between the Americas and Polynesia -- see his massive American Indians in Pacific.

[Uncle Dale]

Correct, Uncle Dale.  That name for the same tuber, along with a great many other items were part of the case made long ago by Thor Heyerdahl for contact between the Americas and Polynesia -- see his massive American Indians in Pacific.

 

 

I remember, as a kid, going into the Pioneer Book Shop, In Idaho Falls

and seeing a pile of the Kon-Tiki books in the display window. They

remained there for a year or so, and then disappeared.

 

Not long after that, a half-dozen of the same title, in their dust-wrappers

and in mint condition, showed up at the local Deseret Industries, at

10 cents each. I think they must have been donated by the book store.

 

Maybe I should have parted with my dime, in the D.I. used books section,

instead of buying a Butterfinger bar...

 

Oh well -- at that age, I wouldn't have cared to read about sweet potatoes

and ocean-going rafts, anyway.

 

UD

[Robert F. Smith]

I remember, as a kid, going into the Pioneer Book Shop, In Idaho Falls

and seeing a pile of the Kon-Tiki books in the display window. They

remained there for a year or so, and then disappeared.

 

Not long after that, a half-dozen of the same title, in their dust-wrappers

and in mint condition, showed up at the local Deseret Industries, at

10 cents each. I think they must have been donated by the book store.

 

Maybe I should have parted with my dime, in the D.I. used books section,

instead of buying a Butterfinger bar...

 

Oh well -- at that age, I wouldn't have cared to read about sweet potatoes

and ocean-going rafts, anyway.

 

UD

Heyerdahl's Kon-Tiki was light stuff compared to his huge, scholarly tome on American Indians in the Pacific.  However, it was fun to read and look at the photos of the balsa wood raft that got him from the Peruvian coast to Raroia in the Tuamotu Archipelago (French Polynesia).  He also put out a popular, Oscar-winning film of his successful voyage (1947), about which see this teaser online at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yS2AquqLU-g .

 

By the way, Heyerdahl, a Norwegian, was not a Mormon.

[mfbukowski]

Heyerdahl's Kon-Tiki was light stuff compared to his huge, scholarly tome on American Indians in the Pacific.  However, it was fun to read and look at the photos of the balsa wood raft that got him from the Peruvian coast to Raroia in the Tuamotu Archipelago (French Polynesia).  He also put out a popular, Oscar-winning film of his successful voyage (1947), about which see this teaser online at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yS2AquqLU-g .

 

By the way, Heyerdahl, a Norwegian, was not a Mormon.

He was quite a celebrity as I recall in the early to late 1950's.  My mother, (non-LDS) made me read Kon-Tiki as a kid, and I enjoyed it immensely

 

Good memories!

[Uncle Dale]

...

 

By the way, Heyerdahl, a Norwegian, was not a Mormon.

 

 

If you stop and think about how past events might have played out,

Heyerdahl was at least correct in one of his notions -- that folks

sailed from the American coast westward to our islands, out here

in the middle of nowhere.

 

The part he evidently got wrong, was that the wonderful voyage

first _began_ on the continent, and not in the isles of the sea.

 

An ancient Polynesian prince, defeated in an inter-tribal war, and

facing annihilation or the open ocean, might well gather up a few

remaining followers, some pigs, some chickens, and set out in his

royal canoe -- for parts unknown. And it would be much more likely

that such a voyager would hit upon the vast American coastline,

by first sailing east, than would be the reciprocal narrative.

 

A Hagoth-like expedition, setting out from Columbia, or Peru, or

Yucatan would be darned lucky to ever land upon Easter Island,

or one of the other specks of rock amid the Pacific waves. More

likely that the imaginary American voyagers would perish out

somewhere between Fiji and Samoa -- if the winds and currents

even carried them that far.

 

But consider the opposite scenario -- the Polynesian prince and

his tiny floatilla of refugee-packed war canoes lands upon the

Equadorian shore, conquers the local fisherman, and sets up his

royal shop for a generation or two. Then, one of his sons or nephews

vows to sail back to Rapa Nui and re-claim the lost kingdom. He

knows pretty much where he is going, how long the trip will take,

what supplies the warrior-sailors will need. (See essentially the

same story played out in a 1954 Robert Wagner-Janet Leigh flick).

 

And, upon landing back in the ancestral island homeland, the crew

have a few sweet potatoes left over from their voyage stocks...

 

Had I outlined this (I think) more logical answer -- the RLDS elder

who introduced the subject would have doubtless shook his head

and warned me about the consequences of my lack of belief -- and

perhaps lecture me on how Hagoth's faith far exceeded my own.

 

Oh well...

 

UD

Edited December 26, 2014 by Uncle Dale

[mfbukowski]

If you stop and think about how past events might have played out,

Heyerdahl was at least correct in one of his notions -- that folks

sailed from the American coast westward to our islands, out here

in the middle of nowhere.

 

The part he evidently got wrong, was that the wonderful voyage

first _began_ on the continent, and not in the isles of the sea.

 

An ancient Polynesian prince, defeated in an inter-tribal war, and

facing annihilation or the open ocean, might well gather up a few

remaining followers, some pigs, some chickens, and set out in his

royal canoe -- for parts unknown. And it would be much more likely

that such a voyager would hit upon the vast American coastline,

by first sailing east, than would be the reciprocal narrative.

 

A Hagoth-like expedition, setting out from Columbia, or Peru, or

Yucatan would be darned lucky to ever land upon Easter Island,

or one of the other specks of rock amid the Pacific waves. More

likely that the imaginary American voyagers would perish out

somewhere between Fiji and Samoa -- if the winds and currents

even carried them that far.

 

But consider the opposite scenario -- the Polynesian prince and

his tiny floatilla of refugee-packed war canoes lands upon the

Equadorian shore, conquers the local fisherman, and sets up his

royal shop for a generation or two. Then, one of his sons or nephews

vows to sail back to Rapa Nui and re-claim the lost kingdom. He

knows pretty much where he is going, how long the trip will take,

what supplies the warrior-sailors will need. (See essentially the

same story played out in a 1954 Robert Wagner-Janet Leigh flick).

 

And, upon landing back in the ancestral island homeland, the crew

have a few sweet potatoes left over from their voyage stocks...

 

Had I outlined this (I think) more logical answer -- the RLDS elder

who introduced the subject would have doubtless shook his head

and warned me about the consequences of my lack of belief -- and

perhaps lecture me on how Hagoth's faith far exceeded my own.

 

Oh well...

 

UD

All it would take is one boat with some supplies aboard getting blown out to sea, and getting lucky and hitting an island.

 

I wonder how many boats with sweet potatoes aboard have gotten lost at sea in a few thousand years.

 

Some had to make it at least one way.

[USU78]

Wandering birds seem like a more reasonable probability --

perhaps parrots, who also brought the cognate pronunciations

from the mainland, along with those migrant sweet potato plants.

 

UD

 

[USU78]

Looks like the prevailing theory is that Polynesians made it to the Americas and returned to Polynesia. It is better accepted as a theory, rather than, pre-Columbian people of the Americas  traveling to Polynesia, since it are the Polynesians that have long been making ocean voyages and navigating to and from far flung places on the seas. There is no evidence of anyone from the Americas with the technology or navigational know-how to have made ocean voyages to Polynesia.

 

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/328/5984/1344.summary

 

Yup.  It cannot possibly be true that a race forgets its maritime roots and seafaring ways.

 

As my Eskelsen relatives have proven many a time on Willard Bay.

[pogi]

Yup.  It cannot possibly be true that a race forgets its maritime roots

 

So, you are suggesting the potatoes did float across the ocean?  "Maritime roots"...get it? (crickets chirping in the background).

[USU78]

So, you are suggesting the potatoes did float across the ocean?  "Maritime roots"...get it? (crickets chirping in the background).

 

Thenkyew, thenkyew, thenkyewvurymuch . . . try the broasted chicken and be sure to tip yer waiters.

[gripper41]

I recall a speaker here in Hilo, claiming that our local

'uala (a variety of sweet potato) must have originally

come from what is now Columbia, in South America.

 

If I recall correctly, he said that their 'kuala has the same

gentics as our 'uala, and that the Columbian variety is

far older, historically, than our Hawaiian ones. I don't

remember which Indian tribes' languages use that word.

 

Are the sweet potatoes I had for lunch today evidence

(or "proof" as that speaker asserted) of there really

having been an ancient explorer named Hagoth?

 

UD

 

ps. They taste good with just a touch of soy sauce and

a sprinkle of turmeric and garlic powder.

Kumara as we call it here in NZ is strong proof of polynesians carrying their food with them.

I havent looked into the genetics of kumara but have looked into the genetics of our maori/polynesian people.

The over whelming evidence is that we originated from Taiwan and closely related to the people of the land there that currently live in the highlands. Not the chinese people who now live down below.

Im really not sure what to make of David O,Mckay and Matthew Cowleys declarations that are descendants of South American explorers.

I can only presume at this stage that they were mistaken.

[Uncle Dale]

 

un·der·state·ment

 

ˈəndərˌstātmənt

 

noun:

the presentation of something as being smaller, worse, or less important than it actually is.