Limited Omnipotence Key To Problem Of Evil

[rongo]

I was surprised to see my sentiments echoed by a rabbi in this Washington Post article: the only solution to the "problem of evil" is that God cannot be absolutely "all powerful."

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/11/10/if-god-is-all-powerful-does-that-mean-he-has-forsaken-ebola-ravaged-west-africa/

 

I thought that some of the material from Leibniz and others cited, and their logical extensions, is helpful, as well. 

[stemelbow]

I was surprised to see my sentiments echoed by a rabbi in this Washington Post article: the only solution to the "problem of evil" is that God cannot be absolutely "all powerful."

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/11/10/if-god-is-all-powerful-does-that-mean-he-has-forsaken-ebola-ravaged-west-africa/

 

I thought that some of the material from Leibniz and others cited, and their logical extensions, is helpful, as well.

I agree

The fact that is the life of Jesus of Nazareth. His life ended on a cross, in death. For the Christian, man literally killed God. What could be more heinous? What could be more terrible? But his suffering and death also opened the gates of heaven, giving man the possibility of everlasting paradise, forgiveness — redemption. Suffering, previously hollow, thus takes on meaning; suffering thus gains purpose. “Death,” writes Saint Paul, “is swallowed up in victory.”

I'm not sure that satisfies the problem of evil, so much as complicates it. There has to be something more.

[cdowis]

The issue is that God is governed by law, and those eternal laws include justice and free agency.

[bluebell]

I think some of the problem is hiw people define all powerful.

Some people want to define it to mean that God is unaffected by the consequences of His choices-that He completely controls the results of His actions.

I don't define all powerful in that way (and neither do the scriptures). God has complete power over His choices, but He cannot control the results of those choices.

We often get confused about our own agency and begin to believe we also have this power, but it doesn't take much consideration to realize how very limited our power of choice and action truly is. Just ask anyone who ever was confronted by a situation where they or a loved one was ill or in danger and they will tell you what helpless really feels like.

God is truly all powerful in His agency. Again, just not in defiance of the consequences.

This is what the scriptures mean when they say that if God lied He would cease to be God. He literally can do whatever He wants, but the consequences follow.

[wenglund]

And here I thought the atonement was the solution to the problem of evil.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[stemelbow]

I think some of the problem is hiw people define all powerful.

Some people want to define it to mean that God is unaffected by the consequences of His choices-that He completely controls the results of His actions.

I don't define all powerful in that way (and neither do the scriptures). God has complete power over His choices, but He cannot control the results of those choices.

We often get confused about our own agency and begin to believe we also have this power, but it doesn't take much consideration to realize how very limited our power of choice and action truly is. Just ask anyone who ever was confronted by a situation where they or a loved one was ill or in danger and they will tell you what helpless really feels like.

God is truly all powerful in His agency. Again, just not in defiance of the consequences.

This is what the scriptures mean when they say that if God lied He would cease to be God. He literally can do whatever He wants, but the consequences follow.

The strength of the LDS position is not only as you describe in terms of God's limitations, but also in that God did not create absolutely. If it were that God created all things out of nothing, as is generally the traditional Christian position, and God knew the evil that doing so would cause, then evil is God's responsibility--a tough thing to square.

[stemelbow]

And here I thought the atonement was the solution to the problem of evil.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

That's essentially what the author said.

[KevinG]

God can make is obey, but He would rather we grew to be like Him, paying for our sins through the atonement, and welcoming us back to His presence as joint Heirs with Christ.

Satan disagreed.

[bluebell]

The strength of the LDS position is not only as you describe in terms of God's limitations, but also in that God did not create absolutely. If it were that God created all things out of nothing, as is generally the traditional Christian position, and God knew the evil that doing so would cause, then evil is God's responsibility--a tough thing to square.

I agree.

[pogi]

The article asks:

“Is [God] willing to prevent evil, but not able? then is he impotent. Is he able, but not willing? then is he malevolent. Is he both able and willing? whence then is evil?”

 

I would respond:

If God is willing to allow evil (for purposes we all fought for in the war in heaven) then he is good for offering only what we wanted.  He allows evil not because he is “impotent” or “malevolent,” but because Lucifer’s idea SUCKED! 

Edited November 10, 2014 by pogi

[The Nehor]

I would respond:

If God is willing to allow evil (for purposes we all fought for in the war in heaven) then he is good for offering only what we wanted.  He allows evil not because he is “impotent” or “malevolent,” but because Lucifer’s idea SUCKED! 

 

The longer I live the more sympathetic I am to those who flocked to Lucifer insisting the plan was too risky. I still disagree with them but I understand.

[ERayR]

I was surprised to see my sentiments echoed by a rabbi in this Washington Post article: the only solution to the "problem of evil" is that God cannot be absolutely "all powerful."

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/11/10/if-god-is-all-powerful-does-that-mean-he-has-forsaken-ebola-ravaged-west-africa/

 

I thought that some of the material from Leibniz and others cited, and their logical extensions, is helpful, as well. 

 

God is either omnipotent or he is not.  If he is limited he can not be omnipotent.  No he may for his own reasons limit himself but that still leaves the question oe why?

[cdowis]

God is either omnipotent or he is not.  If he is limited he can not be omnipotent.  No he may for his own reasons limit himself but that still leaves the question oe why?

 

If God violates the law of justice, he would cease to be God.  Without the law of justice and mercy, we could not come back into His presence,

 

The Book of Mormon explains this extensively, so may I suggest that you open up your copy and read it often.  It will answer your questions.

[Mystery Meat]

I disagree with the rabbi's/author's fundamental supposition, i.e., God's interference can only be because 1. he can't or 2. he doesn't care. He does care and he can intervene. Many of us have experienced his interference in our own lives with healing and other miracles.

 

The third option and the one that explains how God can be both omnipotent and not interfere in certain circumstances is the fact that He has Eternal perspective.

[Guest]

The issue is that God is governed by law, and those eternal laws include justice and free agency.

Amen my fellow Georgian...but yes he is all powerful but will not violate agency. Although he establishing laws, he is perfectly righteous so he obeys his own laws. One reason I love him so much.

[The Nehor]

If God violates the law of justice, he would cease to be God.

This is a Skousen doctrine, not an LDS doctrine.

[stemelbow]

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints[edit]

Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) believe that the difficulty surrounding the Christian concept of evil stems from a misunderstanding of the nature of God that arose in the centuries after Christ, as post-apostolic theologians began to merge Christianity with Greek metaphysical philosophies such as Neoplatonism, which described divinity as an utterly simple, immaterial, formless substance/essence (ousia) that was the absolute causality and creative source of all that existed (see Neoplatonism and Christianity). Mormons teach that through modern day revelation, God restored the truth about His nature, which reinstated the original Judeo-Christian concept of a natural, personal, corporeal God who is the literal Father of the spirits of humankind.[91] This restoration included the doctrine that “the glory of God is intelligence”[92]—which clarifies that God’s omniscience/omnipotence is not to be understood as metaphysically transcending all limits of nature, but as a perfect comprehension of all things within nature[93]—which gives God the power to bring about any state or condition within those bounds.[94] Central to this concept is the restored doctrine that God does not create Ex nihilo (out of nothing), but uses existing materials to create order out of chaos.[95] Because opposition is inherent in nature, and God operates within nature’s bounds, God is therefore not considered the author of evil—nor can He simply eradicate all evil from the universe.

As the loving Father of the spirits of mankind, God wanted His offspring[96] to have the opportunity to develop the same intelligence that He possessed, and thus become heirs of His glory, and co-heirs with their brother Jesus Christ.[97] Essential to this process is learning to appreciate and choose righteousness,[98] which is centered on developing the godly attributes taught in the Bible—including faith, love, justice, patience, kindness, charity, obedience, selflessness, humility, mercy, forgiveness, honesty, etc.—in other words, that which counteracts evil, and cultivates everlasting joy. Knowing these principles could only be learned by experience, God gave His children the choice to come to Earth, where they would gain a mortal body—which is patterned after God’s glorified, immortal body, but is subject to pain, sickness, temptation, death, etc. The opposition found in mortality is therefore not viewed by Mormons as a tragic (and arguably, unjust) cancellation of God’s plan for an eternal paradise, rather it was an indispensable part of His plan, as the process of enduring/overcoming trials, challenges, temptations, mistakes, etc. instills the kind of wisdom and insight that can be learned no other way. As Paul wrote in 2 Corinthians 4:17: “…affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory.“[99]

Another essential element of the learning process of mortality is the principle of agency, which is the privilege to act and choose for one’s self.[100] Though agency was absolutely vital for God’s children to be able to learn and progress through experience, it had the effect that all accountable mortals would inevitably sin.[101] Because “no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of God,”[102][103] this signified that none of God’s children would be able to return to live with Him, thus defeating the purposes of mortality. To remedy this, Jesus Christ offered to sacrifice Himself to pay for the sins of all those would repent,[104] thus providing a pathway for redemption. However, this presents a soteriological dilemma[105] in that a majority of humans have died without a chance to receive the gospel of Jesus Christ—and God could only be considered just if he provided an opportunity for all mortals to repent and be saved. Mormons assert that this problem was addressed with the restoration of the principle of salvation of the dead, which teaches that between His death and resurrection, Christ visited the spirit world and instituted a missionary program to teach those who didn't receive the gospel during mortality.[106][107] Proxy baptisms[108] are performed in LDS temples on behalf of those who have died—the recipients of which are then free to accept or reject this ordinance in the spirit world. In this sense, both requirements set forth by Christ as essential for salvation, i.e. belief and baptism,[109] can be fulfilled by both the living and the dead.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil

The link provides a pretty good explanation. In my mind, as it's been, the LDS position holds the best explanation, defense/theodicy, for the problem of evil, more or less explained above.

[Freedom]

God does have absolute power,he just chooses not to exercise it because it would spoil the experiment of this probationary state which he created and which, in my opinion, operates outside the real universe in an isolated and protected vacuum. He allows choice to  degree, so long as it does not affect his eternal plan. Absolute power is absolute control. He has absolute control over this planet and live and history unfolds according to his carefully administered interference.. 

[ERayR]

If God violates the law of justice, he would cease to be God.  Without the law of justice and mercy, we could not come back into His presence,

 

The Book of Mormon explains this extensively, so may I suggest that you open up your copy and read it often.  It will answer your questions.

 

I have no questions about it I was purposely broad in my answer.

[ERayR]

This is a Skousen doctrine, not an LDS doctrine.

 

Alma 42:

 

22 But there is a law given, and a punishment affixed, and a repentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the law, and the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease to be God.

 23 But God ceaseth not to be God, and mercy claimeth the penitent, and mercy cometh because of the atonement; and the atonement bringeth to pass the resurrection of the dead; and the resurrection of the dead bringeth back men into the presence of God; and thus they are restored into his presence, to be judged according to their works, according to the law and justice.

[cdowis]

This is a Skousen doctrine, not an LDS doctrine.

 

By an astonishing coincidence the Book of Mormon teaches "Skousen doctrine".

 

Alma 42: 13 Now the work of justice could not be destroyed; if so, God would cease to be God.

(see also 2 Ne 9: 16-17 which expands on that)

 

As I have done with others, may I suggest that you read and study the scriptures.

Edited November 11, 2014 by cdowis

[The Nehor]

By an astonishing coincidence the Book of Mormon teaches "Skousen doctrine".

 

Alma 42: 13 Now the work of justice could not be destroyed; if so, God would cease to be God.

(see also 2 Ne 9: 16-17 which expands on that)

 

As I have done with others, may I suggest that you read and study the scriptures.

You may not suggest that.

As to the verses in question which is more likely?

That Alma is using hyperbole to point out that some things are impossible because God will not allow them.

Or that Alma is hinting at a doctrine he will not come out and discuss openly. A doctrine unknown to every other dispensation as far as we know and which is not endorsed or been taught by the prophets, seers, and revelators.

It comes from a faithful member but it is also from a faithful member that has gotten in trouble with the Twelve for going too far with his teachings before. It has spread throughout the church via his talk tape and transcriptions of what brother Skousen said. I like Skousen. I served with his grandson on my mission and he told me some of the things grandpa taught in extended family FHE environments that he would not share publicly. Some of it was insightful. Some of it was bunk. Basically the same ratio you get in his books.

[cdowis]

OK,  at your request,  I withdraw my suggestion.  

 

Now, I think the BOM is pretty clear, and it can speak for itself.

Edited November 11, 2014 by cdowis

[The Nehor]

OK,  at your request,  I withdraw my suggestion.  

 

Now, I think the BOM is pretty clear, and it can speak for itself.

I think so too but that smacks of being poetic and not a doctrinal statement (thoug it is used in support of one). It is similar to this statement:

"Awake! and arise from the dust, and hear the words of a trembling parent, whose limbs ye must soon lay down in the cold and silent grave, from whence no traveler can return; a few more days and I go the way of all the earth." -2 Nephi 1:14

Most LDS do not take this to mean that the dead do not return or as a denial of the resurrection.

[Rob Osborn]

The whole issue is not properly understood. God exists because of his righteousness- his "choice" to be righteous. God himself can just as easily choose to be wicked and evil just like Lucifer. All this shows is that good and evil exist because we have choice and we have law and that part of becoming gods ourselves is learning the difference between good and evil through our own choices.