Limited Omnipotence Key To Problem Of Evil

[Brian 2.0]

No, I said intrinsically impossible. Things that are self-contradictory. God cannot allow a creature agency and control them. God cannot build a rock so heavy he cannot lift it or microwave a burrito so hot that even he could not eat it. He cannot make a circle simultaneously be a square. In other words things that are inherently self-contradictory.

I can microwave a burrito so hot that I can't eat it. Am I greater than God?

... Point taken though.

[The Nehor]

I can microwave a burrito so hot that I can't eat it. Am I greater than God?

... Point taken though.

In the sense that you are able to limit yourself, yes. Of course one of the great tests of mortality is not doing that.

[Mystery Meat]

It still all comes back to God, not agency.  He may have is reasons for not intervening, which may even be incomprehensible to a mortal.  But when a parent is grieving over the abduction, torture, and eventual murder of their young child, the idea that it's "agency" at play still doesn't take away the reality that God COULD have prevented it from happening but did not.

 

I think this paragraph is right. This is why faith is necessary...look I just answered a question from your thread. 2 points for Gryffindor.

[LinuxGal]

God did not create evil. In fact, nothing created evil because evil always was. According to 2 Nephi 2, evil is coeval (coeternal) with God and had no beginning and will have no end. 

 

This explains the cyclical form of the narrative in the Book of Mormon.  Even when Christ himself comes and sets everyone straight, within a century they're back to Lamanites vs. Nephites again, and they wipe themselves out.  And that, of course, undermines the idea of a "restored gospel".  What's the point, if we're just going to do the dreary cycle once again?

[bluebell]

This explains the cyclical form of the narrative in the Book of Mormon. Even when Christ himself comes and sets everyone straight, within a century they're back to Lamanites vs. Nephites again, and they wipe themselves out. And that, of course, undermines the idea of a "restored gospel". What's the point, if we're just going to do the dreary cycle once again?

I'm not following your of course.

Why does it undermine the idea of a restored gospel?

[LinuxGal]

I'm not following your of course.

Why does it undermine the idea of a restored gospel?

 

I've read the Book of Mormon.  There's no line from point A to point B.  It goes in circles.  A people is reformed (Lehi comes out of Jerusalem, King Benjamin gives his speech, the kingdom gives way to judges, the people put down the robbers, Christ establishes his church).   For a time the people are blessed.   They begin to think themselves the source of their blessings and forget God.  They sink into despair and the cycle repeats.  In the middle of the story, a sideshow with the Jaredites is told, and it, too, is yet another cycle from faithfulness to despair.   The church in the Old World is held to have fallen into the same kind of apostasy.  So now here we are in our modern time with yet another restoration, but the expectation we get from reading the BoM is that it's just another cycle.

[Kenngo1969]

Read the Doctrine and Covenants, then.  It will disabuse you of the idea that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is simply part of "another cycle."

[bluebell]

I've read the Book of Mormon. There's no line from point A to point B. It goes in circles. A people is reformed (Lehi comes out of Jerusalem, King Benjamin gives his speech, the kingdom gives way to judges, the people put down the robbers, Christ establishes his church). For a time the people are blessed. They begin to think themselves the source of their blessings and forget God. They sink into despair and the cycle repeats. In the middle of the story, a sideshow with the Jaredites is told, and it, too, is yet another cycle from faithfulness to despair. The church in the Old World is held to have fallen into the same kind of apostasy. So now here we are in our modern time with yet another restoration, but the expectation we get from reading the BoM is that it's just another cycle.

Ok I'm following you now.

Christ teaches that if the second coming were to be delayed too long everyone would fall away. The restoration of the gospel will last this time, not because the cycle you mentioned will suddenly cease to exist but because the "end" will come before it will be repeated.

[LinuxGal]

Ok I'm following you now.

Christ teaches that if the second coming were to be delayed too long everyone would fall away. The restoration of the gospel will last this time, not because the cycle you mentioned will suddenly cease to exist but because the "end" will come before it will be repeated.

 

We are nearly two centuries into the Restored Gospel.  That's about how long they went in 4 Nephi before the fit hit the shan.

[bluebell]

We are nearly two centuries into the Restored Gospel. That's about how long they went in 4 Nephi before the fit hit the shan.

It was the fourth generation when it started to go downhill but that's not when the bottom completely fell out.

Regardless though, the time frame on the pride cycle is not set in stone, as the BOM (and bible) show.

[LinuxGal]

It was the fourth generation when it started to go downhill but that's not when the bottom completely fell out.

Regardless though, the time frame on the pride cycle is not set in stone, as the BOM (and bible) show.

 

I was going by 4 Nephi 24 And now, in this two hundred and first year there began to be among them those who were lifted up in pride, such as the wearing of costly apparel, and all manner of fine pearls, and of the fine things of the world.

[bluebell]

I was going by 4 Nephi 24 And now, in this two hundred and first year there began to be among them those who were lifted up in pride, such as the wearing of costly apparel, and all manner of fine pearls, and of the fine things of the world.

Yes, that would be about the fourth generation.

But this does not say that an apostasy happened after 200 years. It just says that after 200 years sin began to creep into the church. The church (or restored gospel to use your word) can still very much exist even with sinful people as members (thank goodness).

[LinuxGal]

Yes, that would be about the fourth generation.

But this does not say that an apostasy happened after 200 years. It just says that after 200 years sin began to creep into the church. The church (or restored gospel to use your word) can still very much exist even with sinful people as members (thank goodness).

 

But only a single generation later it will not be able to carry on.  "[40] And it came to pass that two hundred and forty and four years had passed away, and thus were the affairs of the people. And the more wicked part of the people did wax strong, and became exceedingly more numerous than were the people of God."

[djones]

 No, I said intrinsically impossible. Things that are self-contradictory. God cannot allow a creature agency and control them. God cannot build a rock so heavy he cannot lift it or microwave a burrito so hot that even he could not eat it. He cannot make a circle simultaneously be a square. In other words things that are inherently self-contradictory.  

 

        

If God cannot do things that are inherently self-contradictory then He must not be omnipotent. The scriptures say that God knows "all things" But there is no such thing as "all things". Knowing "all" things would imply that there are a finite number of "things" to know. But there isn't. There is no beginning of things, worlds, creations, universes, or gods. So how can he know all of it?

[bluebell]

But only a single generation later it will not be able to carry on. "[40] And it came to pass that two hundred and forty and four years had passed away, and thus were the affairs of the people. And the more wicked part of the people did wax strong, and became exceedingly more numerous than were the people of God."

The majority of the people have apostasized, yes. But as the scripture says, the gospel still remained among the people at this point.

[Kenngo1969]

LinuxGal isn't "rising to the bait" of my invitation to read the Doctrine and Covenants then, eh?