Mormon Siege Tech And Military Units

[poptart]

Most swords used by the Conquistadores were not high-quality Toledo steel. The typical sword did not hold an edge well and was little more use than a club.

Hmm, didn't know this but it would make sense, any swordsman worth his salt left the good stuff off the battlefield and took his cheapest, most durable one on the field. 

Hmmm are you sure?  The spaniards were renown swordsmen, and the conquistadors were pretty good at their job.  Have any sources? 

[Calm]

Thats changing, fast.  I don't like how vets are treated nowadays, they look for anyway to give people a less than honorable discharge and they just treat people like garbage while in.  Also, the jets the US makes.  The f-35 is such an overpriced piece of junk.

I am totally uneducated in this area. If so, very wrong to treat those willing to give their lives for the defense of others in such a way, even stupid given it will drive away the quality people and only those who have no other option will remain.

[poptart]

I am totally uneducated in this area. If so, very wrong to treat those willing to give their lives for the defense of others in such a way, even stupid given it will drive away the quality people and only those who have no other option will remain.

Had a few buddies go in a while ago, things didn't work out so well, and the f-35 is the newest fighter jet the U.S military has.  Overpriced piece of junk.

Also, its not so much the people who have no other option who scare me, but the gangland thugs from LA and the skinheads who get in just so that they can get military training and be better criminals who scare me.

[Calm]

I did not know they ditched their armor.  Didn't they have the partial curiass plate?  Would think that would be superb against arrows.  Also a rapier with a buckler vs clubs?  Really now?  Not bashing native weaponry here, but toledo swords especially were the best in the world at the time, and it was the Spaniards who created what later on became olympic fencing.  (granted that was after the Italians and French modified it, but hey give credit where its due)

Have you seen how sharp obsidian glass/rock is? You can use it for surgery I believe. They weren't just clubs, but clubs that could slash and cut as good or better than swords, only the thin point of a sword might be better.

Have to watch one of those Aztec vs. European military channel showdowns.

[poptart]

Have you seen how sharp obsidian glass/rock is? You can use it for surgery I believe. They weren't just clubs, but clubs that could slash and cut as good or better than swords, only the thin point of a sword might be better.

Have to watch one of those Aztec vs. European military channel showdowns.

Yeah, but they shatter on impact.  A European rapier was ment mainly as a thrust weapon, and the side sword (rapier-like sword for war) was made as a slash and thrust weapon.  Problem with obsidian/glass vs a good late middle ages/rennisance sword, durability as well as ability to withstand a lot of damage.  They were specially made to withstand a lot of damage.  Keep in mind one of the main functions of that type of sword was not only to be able to go through thick layers of clothing, but also the weak points in plate mail (and plate mail could withstand early musket rounds!)  not to mention being well balanced enough to be like an extention of your arm. 

Book you should read, by the sword.  Very educational.

http://www.amazon.com/Sword-Gladiators-Musketeers-Swashbucklers-anniversary/dp/0812969669/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1415156940&sr=1-3&keywords=by+the+sword

[Calm]

Had a few buddies go in a while ago, things didn't work out so well, and the f-35 is the newest fighter jet the U.S military has.  Overpriced piece of junk.

Also, its not so much the people who have no other option who scare me, but the gangland thugs from LA and the skinheads who get in just so that they can get military training and be better criminals who scare me.

Hadn't thought of that. That is scarry.

I've had several relatives go into different forces to receive medical training or after receiving their md (paid for by the navy and was sent to desert storm iirc) or get training through the medic corp of the Air Force..I have it stuck in my head she is in Dubai, but that is not it). I've heard good reports from them, but probably a significantly different set up. All the other vets I know which are many including a Canadian vet or two are older.

Words are blurring, calling it an early night, very, very important appt. early in the morning so saying go night now and scold me heavily if you see mr sneaking back on. Only books tonight much easier to fall asleep to these days...unless it is a boring tv show being watched on my iPad.

[poptart]

Hadn't thought of that. That is scarry.

I've had several relatives go into different forces to receive medical training or after receiving their md (paid for by the navy and was sent to desert storm iirc) or get training through the medic corp of the Air Force..I have it stuck in my head she is in Dubai, but that is not it). I've heard good reports from them, but probably a significantly different set up. All the other vets I know which are many including a Canadian vet or two are older.

Words are blurring, calling it an early night, very, very important appt. early in the morning so saying go night now and scold me heavily if you see mr sneaking back on. Only books tonight much easier to fall asleep to these days...unless it is a boring tv show being watched on my iPad.

It is very scary.

[volgadon]

Hmm, didn't know this but it would make sense, any swordsman worth his salt left the good stuff off the battlefield and took his cheapest, most durable one on the field. 

Hmmm are you sure?  The spaniards were renown swordsmen, and the conquistadors were pretty good at their job.  Have any sources? 

 

It has more to do with the cost of a good sword. I'll have to find you a reference.

[poptart]

It has more to do with the cost of a good sword. I'll have to find you a reference.

Thats what I was getting at.  A good sword, like a good gun was very expensive!  That, and the training for one was not only time consuming but not everyone had the temperment to be a swordsman, hence the popularity of the mace, warhammer, and the good old battleaxe.  Ahh, the battleaxe.

[volgadon]

Yeah, but they shatter on impact.

 

 

Were that entirely true then obsidian would never have been used for weapons after the first battle, which would have occurred long before the Spanish arrived.

[volgadon]

Thats what I was getting at.  A good sword, like a good gun was very expensive!  That, and the training for one was not only time consuming but not everyone had the temperment to be a swordsman, hence the popularity of the mace, warhammer, and the good old battleaxe.  Ahh, the battleaxe.

 

Most Conquistadores were not rich. That, after all, was the big reason they went to the Americas, in order to get rich quick, or die trying. Estremadura produced a disproportionate amount of warriors because it was one of the poorest regions of Europe.

[Calm]

Too self indulgent...

Edited November 5, 2014 by calmoriah

[BCSpace]

Not siege tech, but the Nephites used strong wine to very good effect militarily.  At least twice and I think it was Teancum who figured prominently IIRC.

[Robert F. Smith]

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Now this I would believe, considering its hard to push a battering ram through a jungle.

Actually, much of Mesoamerica is not jungle (rain forest), and some very well made highways existed (sacbe).  So battering rams are not out of the question.

 

Highland Guatemala is quite temperate, as is central Mexico (Teotihuacan) and Oaxaca.

 

I recommend William J. Hamblin, "History of Warfare in the Book of Mormon," Encyclopedia of Mormonism, online at http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Book_of_Mormon,_History_of_Warfare_in .

William Hamblin, and Stephen Ricks, eds., Warfare in the Book of Mormon (FARMS, 1992), online at http://publications.maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/book/warfare-in-the-book-of-mormon/ .

  

[ksfisher]

Larger engines usually involve wheels of some sort, don't they (my engineering classes were electrical, not mechanical)? They had small toys with wheels so the principal was known but making it work on a larger scale hadn't been done yet, in my understanding.

 

I believe that the axle was the problem.  The basic wheel is fairly simple, but designing an effective axle, especially without advanced metalworking, is much more difficult. 

[morgan.deane]

I didn't see these mentioned on the thread yet.  In Alma 62:21 it says Moroni used cords and ladders to enter the city. Though this was done under the cover of night and presumably not a battle worthy tactic.  Alma 49 mentioned how the Lamanites tried to storm the gates or fill in the ditches.  There isn't much in the BoM about fortifications before the war chapters, so likely they had little need for it.  

 

I've done some research (for which I'd love to have some feedback) that shows how the army got complacent and even parasitic after several changes in tactics during the war chapters.  One of the changes was fortifications.  Like the Fobbits, the army soldiers in Iraq that lived in luxurious forward operating bases (FOBs), but then commuted to the battlefield, the Nephites did not do well when they left their fortifications to battle the increasingly deadly Gadianton Robbers.  The fortifications also required man hours to build, and both man hours and more money to maintain.  So this could have alienated the population and contributed to a decline in Nephite power and defections to the Gadianton Robbers. For example, the second (and last) emperor of the Sui Dynasty committed vast amounts of resources to his war against Korea.  Under penalty of death the peasants were required to supply the army.  But this didn't account for floods, broken supply wagons, or attacks by robbers. So when the peasants lost their supply they figured they might as well leave society and become robbers since they were outlaws anyway.  I'm giving you the short version of this train of thought, but the cost of supplying the army is often neglected in having that army (and fortifications for that army) and there are vast unintended consequences for every action.  

 

So my the point is how it may seem ridiculous and maybe primitive not to have siege weapons, but perhaps thats because fortifications were temporary or not as widely used as we assume. If you dominate a city in order to provide a bigger tax base for the elites, but it requires more of those taxes to keep it (in the form of a garrison behind city walls), which in turn burdens and alienates the population that wants to revolt, its possible the cost wasn't worth the benefits of many fortifications.

 

Thanks for the great question on military history in the BoM.  As you can probably tell, its a subject I enjoy studying.      

Edited November 5, 2014 by morgan.deane

[ksfisher]

 

 

I've done some research (for which I'd love to have some feedback) that shows how the army got complacent and even parasitic after several changes in tactics during the war chapters.  One of the changes was fortifications.  Like the Fobbits, the army soldiers in Iraq that lived in luxurious forward operating bases (FOBs), but then commuted to the battlefield, the Nephites did not do well when they left their fortifications to battle the increasingly deadly Gadianton Robbers. 

 

I would think that topography would play a greater role in the Nephite lack of success than complacency.  The Nephite army was essentially a militia.  If I remember correctly (I haven't looked it up) the Nephites went up into the hills to fight the robbers.  This would seem to place a tremendous strain on Nephite command and control during a battle.  With the Nephite commanders only able to control  soldiers within their eyesight, a militia army would not seem to stand much of a chance if they were surprised in broken terrain. 

 

I don't see any evidence of the Nephites having a standing, professional army.

Edited November 5, 2014 by ksfisher

[morgan.deane]

I would think that topography would play a greater role in the Nephite lack of success than complacency.  The Nephite army was essentially a militia.  If I remember correctly (I haven't looked it up) the Nephites went up into the hills to fight the robbers.  This would seem to place a tremendous strain on Nephite command and control during a battle.  With the Nephite commanders only able to control  soldiers within their eyesight, a militia army would not seem to stand much of a chance if they were surprised in broken terrain. 

 

 

Great points. 

 

 

The volume already cited on warfare in the Book of Mormon has a chapter on a professional military caste.  So there were a group of professional soldiers based on, at least, how young the commanders were (as military elites they received specialized training since birth), and how many father and son combinations there were. The garrisons during the war chapters were at least semi permanent. Some people could argue they were permanent, though I think that depends on your definition. For example, after the war chapters in Helaman chapter 1 it says that Moronihah stationed his soldiers on the flanks which is why the quick strike in the center was so devastating. So were they an active standing army there, or a military colony of hereditary soldiers ready to be moblized (see below)?

 

That being said, it is incredibly expensive and hard on a society to maintain an professional army so I lean towards no, at least in the sense that you describe. In Alma 16 we read about Ammonihah being destroyed before an army could be raised.  But it isn't an either or proposition. Many ancient societies had military colonies. They settled military families in key locations and those soldiers farmed or pursued economic activities in times of peace.  I have a chapter in my first book which suggests that Alma 56:28 points towards one of these colonies.  And Sorenson called the city of Moroni was a garrison city. Both potential colonies were on the borders which is in line with where Moronihah would mobilize his armies in Helaman 1.

 

So this is kind of a long way of saying a standing professional army verse militia is a little too simple a dichotomy, though on the right track. Nephite society became incredibly stratified during the books of Helaman and 3rd Nephi. So if merchants and judges appeared then military elites (intermarried or in a mutually beneficial relationship to the other elites) would as well. There are several verses, which I'll have to look up, that show how Nephi elites abused and even struck their own people.  And of course, later in Nephite history apparently there were no politicians or militia, or soldiers to protect the prophet from his execution date.  Those verses actually make more sense if you figure that soldiers (who acted as military governors, merchants, farmers, and local magnates in times of peace) were a class that perpetuated those abuses.  This is historically the case with other hereditary military groups.  During times when war was more infrequent they grew less effective, corrupt, and self interested.  The fubing of the Tang Dynasty is an example that comes to mind. 

 

You are correct that they fought the Gadianton Robbers in the mountains, so terrain was a part of their defeat.  But they had to retreat to their central territories by the time of 3 Nephi 3, and their battle after that was still a near run.  And it says that the Gadianton Robbers laid waste to many places.  So its not as though mountains were just a Nephite kryptonite. They generally stunk until the reforms of Gidgiddonah and Lachoneus. (For example, in Helaman 4 or so it says they were driven all the way back to Bountiful and could only recover half their lands.)  

 

Its not on the thread yet, but my research also discussed how the heavy armor introduced my Moroni contributed to a change of tactics by the robbers.  If you can't face a force head on in direct combat then you lure them into the mountains or rough terrain and ambush them (see the Battle of Teutonburg Forest for example). Armor costs more, which requires more taxes, which increases dissatisfaction with the government and might even make those heavy taxes from the government seem predatory; which in turn might make the "robbers" fighting against that government feel like people who are just trying to recover their rights.   Not to mention the heavier armor prevents both tactical mobility on the battlefield (the French heavy knights at Agincourt for example, were slaughtered in the muddy fields and could get out), and strategic mobility in reaching the battlefield- making mountains even more attractive.  So the mountains were a part of the Nephite defeats, though I think there are some interesting cause and effect that nobody has noticed before.  

 

Thanks for the thought provoking comments.