The Facsimiles

[Rivers]

I am aware that Joseph was actually right about some his interpretations of the Book of Abraham facsimiles.  However, many things still don't accord with the interpretations of Egyptologists. So what exactly was Joseph Smith doing?  The church essay doesn't have anything to say on this point. Especially perplexing is where Joseph actually provides inaccurate interpretations to the hieroglyphics in facsimile 2. I have my own ideas but I am curious to hear some other thoughts on this.

Edited October 2, 2014 by Rivers

[HappyJackWagon]

 

I am aware that Joseph was actually right about some his interpretations of the Book of Abraham facsimiles.

Really? Which ones?

Any claims of accuracy are suspending disbelief in a huge way to approach anything that plausibly sounds like an accurate connection but I don't think the apologists succeed in these claims.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I am not sure what JS was doing. I am not even sure they should be in the scriptures.

[Rivers]

The most impressive thing he got right is the association between the four sons of Horus and the four quarters of the earth.

[Rivers]

I am not sure what JS was doing. I am not even sure they should be in the scriptures.

Yeah. They probably should have same status as the Kirtland Egyptian papers

[Paddy]

I am not sure what JS was doing. I am not even sure they should be in the scriptures.

I would tend to agree. The book of Abraham is theologically brilliant and creative. The facsimiles distract from it. I don't think a fair argument can be made that suggests that Joseph was making literal translation from Egyptian to English, which is why many scholars are moving towards a revelatory interpretation.

[Tacenda]

I am aware that Joseph was actually right about some his interpretations of the Book of Abraham facsimiles. However, many things still don't accord with the interpretations of Egyptologists. So what exactly was Joseph Smith doing? The church essay doesn't have anything to say on this point. Especially perplexing is where Joseph actually provides inaccurate interpretations to the hieroglyphics in facsimile 3. I have my own ideas but I am curious to hear some other thoughts on this.

Did you listen to the latest MS' s podcast? I believe Brent Metcalf said the same thing but I don't remember what it was specifically. Edit to add, Joseph got some things right. Edited October 1, 2014 by Tacenda

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Yeah. They probably should have same status as the Kirtland Egyptian papers

That is were I think most of what went on with them started. They had a project they were doing, which no one is even 100% sure what they were doing with the KEP, and I have a feeling these were involved in the project. I think they were translating them, just not sure they were translated in the normal sense. I don't think that they thought they were translating things. But as Will suggested in the 2010 paper that it was a cypher and these could have played a role in that cypher.

 

I know his main point is that the KEP is dependent on preexisting text and I think he backs that up quite nicely. Just after watching his presentation I started thinking how the facsimiles might relate to the KEP.

 

Of course there are other theories about the facsimiles that I think have some merit to them.

[bjw]

I think these were included in the newspaper serial publication that the boa was part of, thus I think they are different from the kep. JS got a few things right, and I like reading Nibley's interpretation of them, which makes them seem more feasible. Considering current theory is that the boa predates the culture of the facimiles by nearly 2,000 years, maybe the JS interpretation is meant to be a restoration of the meaning from the previous culture. Thus, the things JS got right are "remnants."

[HappyJackWagon]

 

The most impressive thing he got right is the association between the four sons of Horus and the four quarters of the earth.

 

Big stretch.

 

 

JS got a few things right, and I like reading Nibley's interpretation of them, which makes them seem more feasible. Considering current theory is that the boa predates the culture of the facimiles by nearly 2,000 years, maybe the JS interpretation is meant to be a restoration of the meaning from the previous culture. Thus, the things JS got right are "remnants."

 

We're trying really hard to find some way to accept this. He got "some" things right is hardly an inspiring mantra, especially when those "some things" really stretch reason.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I think these were included in the newspaper serial publication that the boa was part of, thus I think they are different from the kep. JS got a few things right, and I like reading Nibley's interpretation of them, which makes them seem more feasible. Considering current theory is that the boa predates the culture of the facimiles by nearly 2,000 years, maybe the JS interpretation is meant to be a restoration of the meaning from the previous culture. Thus, the things JS got right are "remnants."

That is certainly one theory.

[Rivers]

When I first read through the facsimiles as a kid I was very confused as to why we had drawings from an ancient pagan religion/culture in our standard works.  It makes me wonder if we really should be expecting these Egyptian drawings to be conveying any kind of Judeo-Christian or Mormon theology.  I think not. They obviously convey ancient Egyptian religion and practice.

 

So what the heck was Joseph Smith doing?  It seems that he was simply reinterpreting these drawings to match the teachings of the Book of Abraham.  The fact that he doesn't give us any interpretations of the segments of script in facsimile #2 (other than that fig. 8 should be in the temple) makes it evident to me that Joseph Smith really couldn't translate in the traditional sense.

[Mike Reed]

Joseph was doing what many freemasons and other esotericists were doing: falsely projecting biblical themes onto ancient artifacts. He had a gifted imagination, even imagining the unfolding of ancient narratives simply by starring at mere rocks in a hat.

Edited October 2, 2014 by Mike Reed

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Joseph was doing what many freemasons and other esotericists were doing: falsely projecting biblical themes onto ancient artifacts. He had a gifted imagination, even imagining the unfolding of ancient narratives simply by starring at mere rocks in a hat.

That is certainly one way to look at it.

[Johnnie Cake]

The most impressive thing he got right is the association between the four sons of Horus and the four quarters of the earth.

 

 

Brent Metcalf has debunked this so called bullseye...The book of Revelations, a book that Joseph was very familiar with uses this 4 angels/beast figures to describe the four corners of the earth...not a huge leap then for Joseph to graps onto this when he wrote his BoA.

 

Revelations 7:

• 1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

Edited October 2, 2014 by Johnnie Cake

[bjw]

When I first read through the facsimiles as a kid I was very confused as to why we had drawings from an ancient pagan religion/culture in our standard works.  It makes me wonder if we really should be expecting these Egyptian drawings to be conveying any kind of Judeo-Christian or Mormon theology.  I think not. They obviously convey ancient Egyptian religion and practice.

 

So what the heck was Joseph Smith doing?  It seems that he was simply reinterpreting these drawings to match the teachings of the Book of Abraham.  The fact that he doesn't give us any interpretations of the segments of script in facsimile #2 (other than that fig. 8 should be in the temple) makes it evident to me that Joseph Smith really couldn't translate in the traditional sense.

I find figure 8 to 11 fascinating, because in One Eternal Round Nibley translates the script and the part where the dead man's first name is identified with the name of the god in the prayer, as well as the answer to the prayer referring to becoming like God and reproduction, it brings to mind some things from the temple, though I won't mention them on here. I think Nibley and other apologists have done a good job explaining the facsimiles. Stephen Morgan's book Hidden Treasures of Knowledge also does a good job.

[Rivers]

I find figure 8 to 11 fascinating, because in One Eternal Round Nibley translates the script and the part where the dead man's first name is identified with the name of the god in the prayer, as well as the answer to the prayer referring to becoming like God and reproduction, it brings to mind some things from the temple, though I won't mention them on here. I think Nibley and other apologists have done a good job explaining the facsimiles. Stephen Morgan's book Hidden Treasures of Knowledge also does a good job.

Interesting. I guess the real issue is the assumptions people have about what Joseph Smith was doing.

[Rivers]

Brent Metcalf has debunked this so called bullseye...The book of Revelations, a book that Joseph was very familiar with uses this 4 angels/beast figures to describe the four corners of the earth...not a huge leap then for Joseph to graps onto this when he wrote his BoA.

 

Revelations 7:

• 1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

I don't see how this debunks anything. And I wouldn't necessarily call it a bullseye. Just impressive.

[Brian 2.0]

I don't see how this debunks anything. And I wouldn't necessarily call it a bullseye. Just impressive.

 

Sadly the more I looked into the impressive hits, they seemed more like these "hits"

 

http://www.smashinglists.com/top-10-nostradamus-predictions-that-have-come-true/

 

You mentioned you have your theories in the OP... what's your thoughts on it if you don't mind sharing.  

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

 

Brent Metcalf has debunked this so called bullseye...The book of Revelations, a book that Joseph was very familiar with uses this 4 angels/beast figures to describe the four corners of the earth...not a huge leap then for Joseph to graps onto this when he wrote his BoA.

 

Revelations 7:

• 1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

 

Um no he actually didn't debunk that. But at the same time I really don't care if he did. JS did indeed get that part right. I would probably call it more luck at this point though. I am not really all that convinced that the facs should be included in scripture and no one seems to know what the point of them was or the original intent of them were.

 

Oh I am sure you could come out with the "it is obvious JS thought he could translate Egyptian".  To which I would retort, that "He did"?

[cinepro]

Sadly the more I looked into the impressive hits, they seemed more like these "hits"

 

http://www.smashinglists.com/top-10-nostradamus-predictions-that-have-come-true/

 

You mentioned you have your theories in the OP... what's your thoughts on it if you don't mind sharing.  

 

The case of Nostradamus is totally different.  In that situation, his followers take his words and use all the powers of their creativity to stretch and fit them to post-dated events.  That's totally different than what apologists do with Joseph Smith.

[Rivers]

Sadly the more I looked into the impressive hits, they seemed more like these "hits"

http://www.smashinglists.com/top-10-nostradamus-predictions-that-have-come-true/

You mentioned you have your theories in the OP... what's your thoughts on it if you don't mind sharing.

As I mentioned in a previous post, my best guess is that Joseph was projecting ideas from the Book of Abraham onto the facsimiles and that we shouldn't be expecting him to get the same interpretations as Egyptologists. I know that doesn't bode too well with the faithful side of the debate. I would have to agree with Mola Ram that the facsimiles probably don't need to be in the standard works. Even though they are cool to look at. Edited October 3, 2014 by Rivers