Towards A Better Understanding Of Same Sex Attraction And Sin

[Storm Rider]

We also need to be careful that we don't make people feel that a failure to change their sexual orientation is due to their own personal weakness or lack of faith.  Too much harm has already been done by that teaching.

 

Your last sentence is key... we need to find things we can do to help those who are gay & lesbian to feel loved and supported.  Without that, we will ultimately fail at teaching the atonement.

 

Rock, this is wise and I completely agree with you.  Too often when we discuss this topic there is confusion created when a condemnation of a behavior is equated to condemnation of a person, which is not the case.  In addition, those that condemn the behavior may sound or appear glib when stating that someone should change their sexual preference.  

 

The focus for all must always be to draw closer to our Father in Heaven and to his Son.  This is the challenge, regardless of sexual preference, that we all seek after and all fall short.  Defining the actual sin(s) that troubles us is irrelevant.  We lean on the Savior and we strive with our entire being to follow him. 

Edited September 13, 2014 by Storm Rider

[Rodeo]

And just what part is blurry for you?  Are you confused whether you should be married in the temple or not because gays are allowed to marry?  How does this effect your life?  Could you explain to me your confusion? How do you think it will effect anyones life that isn't gay?

Gay marriage is blasphemous. Satan has blurred the lines of marriage to where many think its okay for gays to have the same religious rights as the faithful. Satan has many lies and has many blurred lines. Most homosexual men do not want gay marriage with complete fidelity. Most male homosexuals are very promiscuous and do not want to be tied down to one mate. For many its all about the sex.

[Rain]

No offense, Pa Pa but your language here is indicative of the problem. You didn't bother to distinguish between homosexuality (the orientation) which is not considered a sin and homosexual behavior (which is).

I'm confident that you are aware of the difference but imagine being a gay or lesbian 14 year old and hearing a bishop or a teacher speak of "homosexuality" being a sin.

I wonder if part of the problem is that it all gets rather wordy. It's been years since I first started to distinguish between the actions and feelings, but I still find myself with a mouthful to say in describing either one of them.

[Rodeo]

Everyone should read this study-

http://josephnicolosi.com/an-open-secret-the-truth-about/

[california boy]

Gay marriage is blasphemous. Satan has blurred the lines of marriage to where many think its okay for gays to have the same religious rights as the faithful. Satan has many lies and has many blurred lines. Most homosexual men do not want gay marriage with complete fidelity. Most male homosexuals are very promiscuous and do not want to be tied down to one mate. For many its all about the sex.

Satan has influenced the Mormon church to teach that marriage is ordained by God causing many to believe that only those that are religious should marry.  Statistics show that more and more people are choosing not to marry as a result of this satanic Mormon agenda.  It is the single greatest threat to the institution of marriage in the world today.

 

and since you moved the goal post once again:

 

This satanic control of the Mormon church has convinced many that unless they are without sin, they should not attend church.  They teach against other churches allowing gays from participating in organized religion because gays are living in sin.   Statistics also show that less and less people are inclined to have anything to do with organized religion because they all realize that they are sinners.  The satanic Mormon agenda to convince the world that you have to be without sin in order to participate in religion is the single greatest threat to religion today.

 

See, two people can play the satan is behind the other side.  You love the hyperbole, but you never seem to answer the hard questions.  How does gay marriage influence you or anyone else to not want to be married in the temple?  How does what other religions believe effect your own personal beliefs?

 

Other religions believe that sex outside of marriage is the law of chastity.  They don't believe that every word in the Bible came from God , but like Brigham Young, prophets in the Bible were a product of their time.  Heck, they even believe that women can pray in church even though the Bible clearly teaches otherwise.  Now Mormons want to dictate what other religions believe???? Do you know that they let their members drink alcohol as well?  Or that other churches believe that they too have the priesthood??  Or that it is ok for women to wear make up??

 

 

Maybe God wants us to be more concerned with our own salvation rather than the salvation of others.  Maybe those that rage against loving gay couples choosing to marry should be more concerned with making sure their families are loved and embrace the gospel.  There will always be sin in the world.  Trying to control other peoples sins was never part of the plan of salvation.  Maybe members of God's church should be more concerned with loving all who seek to follow Christ rather than being concerned with the sins of those that sit next to them in church.  A wise bishop once said, you are cant control the salvation of others.  You are only responsible for your own salvation.  The actions of others does not cause you to act differently or sin more.  Mormons have always lived in a world of sin.  Nothing has changed.  Fewer people joining the church has not been because of gay marriage, but rather from problems within the church itself.  Perhaps your focus should be on your own relationship with God.  Just a though,  

[Daniel2]

1because it cannot in this life or the next fulfill the measure of its existence - to create life. 

Interesting. I've never heard this theory that "the measure of life's existence is to create life."

I was always taught that the measure of our existence is to have joy.

[california boy]

Everyone should read this study-

http://josephnicolosi.com/an-open-secret-the-truth-about/

You do realize that the wonderful Joseph Nicolosi, is the founder and former president of NARTH.  He has made his living on practicing reparative therapy, a treatment that has been shown to be such a fraud that states have passed laws against the practice of reparative therapy for those under 18.  I know who Joseph Nicolosi is, I once went to his wonderful clinic for several months.  He preys on homosexuals that so desperately want to become straight that they are willing to give him thousands of dollars.  Yeah I was one of those victims.

 

  And did you notice that every study he quotes in that article you posted was done BEFORE gay marriage was legal.  In other words he is comparing single gay men with married couples.  If you want to compare apples to apples, shouldn't  you be comparing single gay men with single straight men?  

 

If you are going to attack gays, shouldn't you at least attempt to be honest in your attacks?  Is there no room in your attitudes towards gays for fairness and respect?

 

I wonder how you feel when antimormons post links and articles that smear the church with untruths and lies.  Yet you have become that person.  You are that guy.  You are just attacking gays instead of the church.  The cause is different, but the dishonesty is the same.

Edited September 13, 2014 by california boy

[rockpond]

Gay marriage is blasphemous. Satan has blurred the lines of marriage to where many think its okay for gays to have the same religious rights as the faithful. Satan has many lies and has many blurred lines. Most homosexual men do not want gay marriage with complete fidelity. Most male homosexuals are very promiscuous and do not want to be tied down to one mate. For many its all about the sex.

Gee, I wonder how our gay brothers in the church could possibly feel condemned?

[rockpond]

I wonder if part of the problem is that it all gets rather wordy. It's been years since I first started to distinguish between the actions and feelings, but I still find myself with a mouthful to say in describing either one of them.

If it seems like a mouthful, you may want to reconsider the need to single out "homosexual behavior". Isn't pre- and extra- marital sex the sin? Do we even need to specify the genders of the participants?

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Satan has influenced the Mormon church to teach that marriage is ordained by God causing many to believe that only those that are religious should marry.  Statistics show that more and more people are choosing not to marry as a result of this satanic Mormon agenda.  It is the single greatest threat to the institution of marriage in the world today.

 

and since you moved the goal post once again:

 

This satanic control of the Mormon church has convinced many that unless they are without sin, they should not attend church.  They teach against other churches allowing gays from participating in organized religion because gays are living in sin.   Statistics also show that less and less people are inclined to have anything to do with organized religion because they all realize that they are sinners.  The satanic Mormon agenda to convince the world that you have to be without sin in order to participate in religion is the single greatest threat to religion today.

 

See, two people can play the satan is behind the other side.  You love the hyperbole, but you never seem to answer the hard questions.  How does gay marriage influence you or anyone else to not want to be married in the temple?  How does what other religions believe effect your own personal beliefs?

 

Other religions believe that sex outside of marriage is the law of chastity.  They don't believe that every word in the Bible came from God , but like Brigham Young, prophets in the Bible were a product of their time.  Heck, they even believe that women can pray in church even though the Bible clearly teaches otherwise.  Now Mormons want to dictate what other religions believe???? Do you know that they let their members drink alcohol as well?  Or that other churches believe that they too have the priesthood??  Or that it is ok for women to wear make up??

 

 

Maybe God wants us to be more concerned with our own salvation rather than the salvation of others.  Maybe those that rage against loving gay couples choosing to marry should be more concerned with making sure their families are loved and embrace the gospel.  There will always be sin in the world.  Trying to control other peoples sins was never part of the plan of salvation.  Maybe members of God's church should be more concerned with loving all who seek to follow Christ rather than being concerned with the sins of those that sit next to them in church.  A wise bishop once said, you are cant control the salvation of others.  You are only responsible for your own salvation.  The actions of others does not cause you to act differently or sin more.  Mormons have always lived in a world of sin.  Nothing has changed.  Fewer people joining the church has not been because of gay marriage, but rather from problems within the church itself.  Perhaps your focus should be on your own relationship with God.  Just a though,  

That is all fine and dandy, but there are certain obligations that the Priesthood is under, under threat of their own condemnation, and one of those obligations is to see that ordinances aren't performed on those that are unworthy. So while practicing homosexuals should be welcome to come and participate there are certain things that cannot fully participate in: baptism, sacrament, Temple (if LDS), etc... if Priesthood were to allow it , the would bring condemnation to their own souls. So by protecting the ordinances they are, in fact, taking charge of their own salvation.

Edited September 13, 2014 by BookofMormonLuvr

[california boy]

That is all fine and dandy, but their are certain obligations that the Priesthood is under, under threat of their own condemnation, and one of those obligations is to see that ordinances aren't performed on those that are unworthy. So while practicing homosexuals should be welcome to come and participate there are certain things that cannot fully participate in: baptism, sacrament, Temple (if LDS), etc... if Priesthood were to allow it , the would bring condemnation to their own souls. So by protecting the ordinances they are, in fact, taking charge of their own salvation.

I completely agree.  I don't think anyone is saying otherwise. 

[rockpond]

That is all fine and dandy, but their are certain obligations that the Priesthood is under, under threat of their own condemnation, and one of those obligations is to see that ordinances aren't performed on those that are unworthy. So while practicing homosexuals should be welcome to come and participate there are certain things that cannot fully participate in: baptism, sacrament, Temple (if LDS), etc... if Priesthood were to allow it , the would bring condemnation to their own souls. So by protecting the ordinances they are, in fact, taking charge of their own salvation.

Is there any threat of condemnation for inadvertently excluding those who are worthy of priesthood ordinances?

[Rodeo]

You do realize that the wonderful Joseph Nicolosi, is the founder and former president of NARTH.  He has made his living on practicing reparative therapy, a treatment that has been shown to be such a fraud that states have passed laws against the practice of reparative therapy for those under 18.  I know who Joseph Nicolosi is, I once went to his wonderful clinic for several months.  He preys on homosexuals that so desperately want to become straight that they are willing to give him thousands of dollars.  Yeah I was one of those victims.

 

  And did you notice that every study he quotes in that article you posted was done BEFORE gay marriage was legal.  In other words he is comparing single gay men with married couples.  If you want to compare apples to apples, shouldn't  you be comparing single gay men with single straight men?  

 

If you are going to attack gays, shouldn't you at least attempt to be honest in your attacks?  Is there no room in your attitudes towards gays for fairness and respect?

The studies are across the boards from multiple sources. Anyone can do a google search on homosexual promiscuity and see that it is a widespread problem in the gay community. Studies also show that very very few gay couples stay in monogamous relationships beyond 5 years. How would marriage change that truth?

Lets be real honest and fair shall we? Show results from studies that show homosexual relationships remain together beyond a few years. Show that it is healthy psychologically. Show that same sex couples have complete fidelity with each other.

The truth from study after study show that at least in male practicing homosexuals, there is no real fidelity amongst same sex couples. There is no long term general happiness. The amount of sexual encounters with other people are way beyond 500% of that of heterosexuals. The AIDS epidemic in this country is mostly passed on by male homosexuals because of their style of promiscuous sexual behavior. Many male homosexuals have hundreds to thousands of sexual partner relations over the course of their lives. Lest be genuinely hones here. Studies have shown that close to 50% of white male homosexuals have had more than 500 different sex partners over the course of their lifetime. Marriage doesnt solve this issue!

[thesometimesaint]

I know that much of our predispositions as adults stems from circumstances that happened ealry in childhood. A certain case, I have a family member (no hints or names) who was abused sexually at a very young age. She was taken from her mother and placed with her father and in time this child grew into an experimenting young adult and eventually she was kicked out of her home and came to live with our family. She was a handful! Very very sexually promiscuous she was, and with both sexes- pretty much anything that would giver attention. We had to have monitors placed on our phones, computers, etc. We caught her several times in lies where she was involved with all manners of sexual immoral behaviors. We always would ask her why she did all this immoral behavior and she would always respond she didnt know other than she was attracted to it a lot. She grew up, moved out with one of her boyfriends, had a kid, separated, went to orgy parties, had another kid by a different father, spent time in jail for forgery scams, got out went to wild sex parties, had another kid from a different father, etc. She continues to struggle. I was given rights to her and still treat her as my own daughter. I love her and feel for her situation. But I also know that her lifestyle is a sin and we have tried to teach her that because of her past and upbringing the temptation is stronger but she can overcome it if she will allow it. I know she can lead a completely normal heterosexual life to a loving and caring husband if she will just believe change is possible. She wasnt born this way, she just had circumstances in her life that placed her into a course where it was easier or felt normal to choose sinful natures. I am of the firm belief that we can come to the bottom of this issue and eradicate it from society.

 

Very sad. All I can say is to continue to continue to love her as one of your own. The lack of personal self regard is frightening. Talk to a good mental health worker. There are things you can do that will help this young woman. Unfortunate homosexuality isn't something you can talk someone out of, any more than you can talk someone out of being heterosexual.

[Rodeo]

Here is the CDC (Center for Disease Control) report of facts concerning HIV infections amongst the gay in this country http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/risk/gender/msm/facts/index.html

If gay people say it isn't about the sex and that they can be have the same monogamous relationships as heterosexuals then why is the spread of HIV/ AIDS the highest in gay and bisexuals?

The facts do not lie. Homosexual behavior leads to promiscuous behavior across the board. It is not a healthy lifestyle.

[thesometimesaint]

Here is the CDC (Center for Disease Control) report of facts concerning HIV infections amongst the gay in this country http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/risk/gender/msm/facts/index.html

If gay people say it isn't about the sex and that they can be have the same monogamous relationships as heterosexuals then why is the spread of HIV/ AIDS the highest in gay and bisexuals?

The facts do not lie. Homosexual behavior leads to promiscuous behavior across the board. It is not a healthy lifestyle.

 

That is just the US. World wide the Aids epidemic is more intrenched in heterosexual population. 

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Is there any threat of condemnation for inadvertently excluding those who are worthy of priesthood ordinances?

 

 

inadvertent

adjective

1.

unintentional:

an inadvertent insult.

2.

not attentive; heedless.

3.

of, pertaining to, or characterized by lack of attention.

 

 

By the above definition... no. You can't be condemned for something you unintentionally failed to do

That being said, the specific point I was making was about those involved in homosexual behavior, which is sin. Unless they repent, they cannot partake and the Priesthood are not under condemnation for refusing to perform the ordinance. Now, if they refuse for the simple fact of the homosexual feelings, they will have to answer for their inaction.

[Rodeo]

Very sad. All I can say is to continue to continue to love her as one of your own. The lack of personal self regard is frightening. Talk to a good mental health worker. There are things you can do that will help this young woman. Unfortunate homosexuality isn't something you can talk someone out of, any more than you can talk someone out of being heterosexual.

It is very sad. I still hold a lot of resentment to her real biologic father for basically dumping her and moving on with his life. This whole immorality issue really strikes a chord with me because I have seen it and lived with it firsthand. Its hard for others to understand my position that I honestly do feel for others who have attractions/temptations of immorality and how much I have disdain for people when they try to sugar coat these immoral lifestyles because the truth is it does not lead to happiness regardless of what they claim. All it brings is short term fulfillment and then in the end leaves them in a darker area than before. There is no escape, its a trap, and a pretty clever one at that. Me and my wife figured out once how much this family member has cost taxpayers to this point and its close to a million dollars, and this is besides all the people she has effected along her way. This is all traced back to her biologic mother getting involved with sexual immorality thinking it was what she felt was right. Its a domino effect that isnt going to stop anytime soon. It will play out for several generations and cause a lot of problems along the way. BTW, one of her sexually promiscuous friends she had a kid with now has HIV and is still very active in the homo/bisexual community here in our area. It wouldnt surprise me if she ended up with HIV/Aids. She has already had numerous STD's and has had to seek medical treatment for it.

[Rodeo]

That is just the US. World wide the Aids epidemic is more intrenched in heterosexual population.

I agree. It says something about the gay agenda in this country. Each country has their own problems based on their culture, society norms, etc. In this country it just happens to be that the gay sexual revolution that was started in the 50's and 60's was based around promiscuous behavior.

[Brian 2.0]

Here is the CDC (Center for Disease Control) report of facts concerning HIV infections amongst the gay in this country http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/risk/gender/msm/facts/index.html

If gay people say it isn't about the sex and that they can be have the same monogamous relationships as heterosexuals then why is the spread of HIV/ AIDS the highest in gay and bisexuals?

The facts do not lie. Homosexual behavior leads to promiscuous behavior across the board. It is not a healthy lifestyle.

Even if you are right... What is your point?

If it was shown that Mormons as a whole eat more sugar than average, causing various health issues among the community... should we outlaw sugar? Or break up Mormon communities?

[cinepro]

The sin is the same sin as always - it's life vs. death.

Homosexual relationships prevent life/future generations from forming. Procreation is the very order of existence. It is eternal increase. It is part of progression. Scripturally ANY activity that is anti-life or stops life from progressing is sinful in nature. God's entire work is about creating and extending life.

Eternities without end, homosexuality cannot bring to pass life. Therefore it violates eternal law.

Hmmm.

It seems that God creates people who are infertile and are unable to have biological children.  Millions of them. 

 

So even if your theory about an eternal "law of life" is valid (it isn't), it would appear that God creates people who do not biologically abide by this law in this life, and yet they are allowed to do the best they can in marriage and family. 

 

If Church history teaches us anything, it is the the concept of "family" is malleable and adaptable, especially on the eternal scale.  We can argue that God won't allow eternal same-sex unions where they are part of an eternal family by adoptions (and not natural biological procreation), but it seems a little presumptuous to insist that He can't.

 

Find that ANYWHERE in the scriptures referring to sex (not marriage).  Sex in the scriptures has never been about personal bonds.  It is only used for "begetting".

 

Not saying I personally agree with that, but since we are supposed to be talking gospel doctrine here....

 

Even were that to be true, when did the culture of the ancient Israelites become "gospel doctrine"?  If we are picking a group of people to model ourselves after, may I vote for a group that didn't practice slavery?

Edited September 13, 2014 by cinepro

[cinepro]

That is just the US. World wide the Aids epidemic is more intrenched in heterosexual population. 

 

I don't understand your comment.  Who are these "world wide" people that you refer to that don't live in the United States?

[cinepro]

I agree. It says something about the gay agenda in this country. Each country has their own problems based on their culture, society norms, etc. In this country it just happens to be that the gay sexual revolution that was started in the 50's and 60's was based around promiscuous behavior.

 

I find it ironic that the LDS Church has taken great pains these past few years to sell the world on the idea that LDS are a diverse people, with many different races, cultures and types of people included (even going so far to make a movie about it).  And yet here is one Mormon who insists that we should view all "gay" people as a monolithic culture, with similar views about fidelity. 

 

As I've mentioned before, my wife and I managed an apartment complex in West Hollywood for a while early in our marriage.  It was a small apartment complex, but almost everyone in it was gay.  But the diversity was amazing.  There were younger people, older couples, and everything in between.  There were young business professionals, struggling actors, aging hippies and so on.  I will also add that even though we were a conventional, conservative family (and I'm sure they knew we were LDS - this was around the time of the "Knight Initiative"), we were never treated with anything but the greatest kindness.

 

There is certainly a good number of the stereotypical half-shirt wearing gay guys living the life on Santa Monica Boulevard on Friday nights (and in gay bars around the world), but I suspect if you look at the entire gay population, you would find a much wider diversity than you could ever imagine, include those that have the same longing for lasting, monogamous relationships as some (but certainly not all) heterosexuals.

 

And honestly, if I were trying to sell a promiscuous homosexual on the idea of long term monogamy and were looking for an example, I don't know that the average single 20-something heterosexual would be the best example.  There might be a lot of promiscuity in certain demographics of gay culture, but they hardly have a monopoly on the practice.

[Rodeo]

Even if you are right... What is your point?

If it was shown that Mormons as a whole eat more sugar than average, causing various health issues among the community... should we outlaw sugar? Or break up Mormon communities?

Eating sugar won't keep me out of heaven. Homosexual behavior will lead me straight to hell with no escape. I will take sugar any day.

[Rodeo]

I find it ironic that the LDS Church has taken great pains these past few years to sell the world on the idea that LDS are a diverse people, with many different races, cultures and types of people included (even going so far to make a movie about it).  And yet here is one Mormon who insists that we should view all "gay" people as a monolithic culture, with similar views about fidelity. 

 

As I've mentioned before, my wife and I managed an apartment complex in West Hollywood for a while early in our marriage.  It was a small apartment complex, but almost everyone in it was gay.  But the diversity was amazing.  There were younger people, older couples, and everything in between.  There were young business professionals, struggling actors, aging hippies and so on.  I will also add that even though we were a conventional, conservative family (and I'm sure they knew we were LDS - this was around the time of the "Knight Initiative"), we were never treated with anything but the greatest kindness.

 

There is certainly a good number of the stereotypical half-shirt wearing gay guys living the life on Santa Monica Boulevard on Friday nights (and in gay bars around the world), but I suspect if you look at the entire gay population, you would find a much wider diversity than you could ever imagine, include those that have the same longing for lasting, monogamous relationships as some (but certainly not all) heterosexuals.

 

And honestly, if I were trying to sell a promiscuous homosexual on the idea of long term monogamy and were looking for an example, I don't know that the average single 20-something heterosexual would be the best example.  There might be a lot of promiscuity in certain demographics of gay culture, but they hardly have a monopoly on the practice.

You should read this, the homosexual lifestyle is not what you claim it is-

http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles8/Lee-The-Truth-About-The-Homosexual-Rights-Movement.php