Towards A Better Understanding Of Same Sex Attraction And Sin

[Tsuzuki]

"Children are entitled to birth within the bonds of matrimony, and to be reared by a father and a mother who honor marital vows with complete fidelity."

 

That's why.

 

And that's where Wicca and popular culture utterly fail, as they inculcate a culture of selfishness where children are either a nuisance, a burden, an accessory, or a bit of protoplasm to be squashed at our whim.

I'm not Wiccan, so I can't speak for that, but in Thelema children are very important, and I emphatically believe that child neglect is a sin. However, that does not make consensual sex outside of an officially sanctioned union sinful, but if you make a human, it's your responsibility to care for it.

 

http://families.oto-usa.org/

 

"The USGL Committee for the Advancement of Thelemic Families develops social and cultural infrastructure that promotes the involvement and support of parents and their children into O.T.O."

 

"Children of all Brethren are entitled to the care of the Order" - Liber CI, Privileges in the Fifth House

"All children of Brethren are to be considered as children of the whole Order, and to be protected and aided in every way by its members severally, as by its organization collectively." - Liber CI, Duties in the Fifth House

"The misery caused to children by the operation of the law of the slave-gods was, one may say, the primum mobile of Our first aspiration to overthrow the Old Law." - Khabs am Pekht

[Tsuzuki]

God is the Master Creator.  We are His children.  He has shared some of His creative power with us, His children.  It is a gift.  It matters to Him what we do with that gift.  The exercise of that gift is the only way for human life on this planet to be created.  That process is central to God's plan for His children.  Abuse of that creative power very often results in misery and heart-ache, including that which results from out of wed-lock births.  

 

The creative power is also central to our growth toward being like God.  It makes us like Him.

 

It is surprising that knowing these things, you would suggest that there is no logic behind or reason behind the sinful nature of abusing this power.

Consensual sex is not an abuse of that power. An abuse would be rape or child neglect.

 

Also, God seems to have shared that creative power with everything that reproduces, including our closest relatives, the bonobos.

Edited September 12, 2014 by Tsuzuki

[thesometimesaint]

I have obviously been accused of gay bashing. I just want to clarify I have never done any gay bashing. My heart goes out to those who struggle I do want to have abetter understanding of the issues but at the same time I do not want to fall nto the trap of calling that which is wrong to be right. Immoral behavior is always sin. There has been a push by the gay agenda to make homosexuality an alternative normal practice. It has crept into the church also amongst members and we even see many fall away over the myriad of issues. I do wonder though how much of this is due to Satan and his works. I found this talk to be helpful in my understanding-

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1995/10/same-gender-attraction?lang=eng&query=lesbian

At the same time in my study I also found this talk by Spencer W. Kimball- https://www.lds.org/ensign/1980/11/president-kimball-speaks-out-on-morality?lang=eng&query=homosexual+spencer+w.+kimball

So that I cannot be accused of gay bashing I want to quote Spencer W. Kimball which I feel truly represents our awful situation in the world today-

" This heinous homosexual sin is of the ages. Many cities and civilizations have gone out of existence because of it. It was present in Israel’s wandering days, tolerated by the Greeks, and found in the baths of corrupt Rome.

This is a most unpleasant subject to dwell upon, but I am pressed to speak of it boldly so that no youth in the Church will ever have any question in his mind as to the illicit and diabolical nature of this perverse program. Again, Lucifer deceives and prompts logic and rationalization which will destroy men and women and make them servants of Satan forever. Paul told Timothy:

“For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

“And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be mined unto fables.” (2 Tim. 4:3–4; See also Moses 5:50–55.)

“God made me that way,” some say, as they rationalize and excuse themselves for their perversions. “I can’t help it,” they add. This is blasphemy. Is man not made in the image of God, and does he think God to be “that way”? Man is responsible for his own sins. It is possible that he may rationalize and excuse himself until the groove is so deep he cannot get out without great difficulty, but this he can do. Temptations come to all people. The difference between the reprobate and the worthy person is generally that one yielded and the other resisted. It is true that one’s background may make the decision and accomplishment easier or more difficult, but if one is mentally alert, he can still control his future. That is the gospel message—personal responsibility."

I am trying to understand the issue and I am constantly coming back to the same conclusion every time- The influence and acceptance of immoral behavior is just adding fuel to the fire in every facet which includes homosexual behavior.

 

I agree that homosexual activity is a sin, what I don't agree with is the idea that what we consider sin should be a crime, or require state action.

We don't know the causes of homosexual attraction. Studies of identical twins suggest no genetic predisposition. OTOH sexual attraction is engrained by the time we're 3-5 years old.

[rockpond]

Define "supported"...

 

I don't know quite how to define it.  But I feel confident that we have more to do in this regard.

[Rodeo]

Hi Rodeo,

 

I'll play devil's advocate here and see if I can give you some things to think about. 

 

Mote and beam come to mind.  Glass houses and throwing stones come to mind.  Our church's relatively recent efforts to get it's members to reach out with love, understanding, and compassion to our brothers, sisters, neighbors who are attracted to the same gender - even if they're openly practicing - come to mind.  

 

Are you close to any homosexuals?  Do you have a gay relative or close friend?  Do you know any at work?  If not, why not?  Are you avoiding them, shunning them, driving them from you with your harsh words?  Could you extend a welcoming hand of friendship to one?  A hug?  Genuine brotherly love?  If your actions (or lack of actions) indicate can't/won't/don't, then perhaps it would be a good time to start a thread about your immoral behavior and how sinful it is.

I have extended family members who are gay. I love them but do not agree at all with their choices. In both of their cases it was a choice they made due to circumstances. One went to an all male Catholic seminary for several years and it was while there he experienced homosexual behavior and became attracted to it. The other is a woman who went to prison and while there had homosexual experiences and chose to become gay. Circumstances led to their becoming attracted towards the same sex.

 

Now every case isnt like this but I do question the real issue at hand- why do some people end up in homosexual relationships. Same sex attraction may indeed be just defined really as same sex temptation.

[Rodeo]

We

Rodeo and Mola Rom,

 

You each should spend some time reading on the Church website mormonsandgays.org. You each seem out of plum with the position of the Church regarding our interactions with "our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters." (Interesting note, notice the Church is using the terms "lesbian" and "gay")

Where the Church stands:

The experience of same-sex attraction is a complex reality for many people. The attraction itself is not a sin, but acting on it is. Even though individuals do not choose to have such attractions, they do choose how to respond to them. With love and understanding, the Church reaches out to all God’s children, including our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters.

A Collection of Conversations:

"There is no change in the Church’s position of what is morally right. But what is changing — and what needs to change — is to help Church members respond sensitively and thoughtfully when they encounter same-sex attraction in their own families, among other Church members, or elsewhere."

Reaching out to our gay brothers and sisters does not mean we endorse their actions nor accept their actions. We are also supposed to reach out to our brothers and sisters in society who have all myriads of temptations and sins. We really need to have an honest and open converstaion about every angle to this problem we have in society so that we do not end up calling what is wrong as being right. Suppose for example where we would be as a society if every home had a wonderful father and mother, we didnt have pornography, we didnt have gay advocay groups who push immoral behavior agendas, etc?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

 Same sex attraction may indeed be just defined really as same sex temptation.

Not everyone has the same temptations. Some struggle, for example, with porn, others don't.

Edited September 12, 2014 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Rodeo and Mola Rom,

 

You each should spend some time reading on the Church website mormonsandgays.org. You each seem out of plum with the position of the Church regarding our interactions with "our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters." (Interesting note, notice the Church is using the terms "lesbian" and "gay")

 

You are a total troll. What have I said that is "out of plum with the position of the Church"?

 

When I say troll, you are just trolling for a response. I guess it worked.

[VideoGameJunkie]

If you want to know how God feels about homosexual activity just ask a sodomite. Wait......  Just kidding. I know God loves all of his children equally with all his heart, regardless of their sexual orientation.

[Rodeo]

I agree that homosexual activity is a sin, what I don't agree with is the idea that what we consider sin should be a crime, or require state action.

We don't know the causes of homosexual attraction. Studies of identical twins suggest no genetic predisposition. OTOH sexual attraction is engrained by the time we're 3-5 years old.

I know that much of our predispositions as adults stems from circumstances that happened ealry in childhood. A certain case, I have a family member (no hints or names) who was abused sexually at a very young age. She was taken from her mother and placed with her father and in time this child grew into an experimenting young adult and eventually she was kicked out of her home and came to live with our family. She was a handful! Very very sexually promiscuous she was, and with both sexes- pretty much anything that would giver attention. We had to have monitors placed on our phones, computers, etc. We caught her several times in lies where she was involved with all manners of sexual immoral behaviors. We always would ask her why she did all this immoral behavior and she would always respond she didnt know other than she was attracted to it a lot. She grew up, moved out with one of her boyfriends, had a kid, separated, went to orgy parties, had another kid by a different father, spent time in jail for forgery scams, got out went to wild sex parties, had another kid from a different father, etc. She continues to struggle. I was given rights to her and still treat her as my own daughter. I love her and feel for her situation. But I also know that her lifestyle is a sin and we have tried to teach her that because of her past and upbringing the temptation is stronger but she can overcome it if she will allow it. I know she can lead a completely normal heterosexual life to a loving and caring husband if she will just believe change is possible. She wasnt born this way, she just had circumstances in her life that placed her into a course where it was easier or felt normal to choose sinful natures. I am of the firm belief that we can come to the bottom of this issue and eradicate it from society.

[Tsuzuki]

If you want to know how God feels about homosexual activity just ask a sodomite. Wait......  Just kidding. I know God loves all of his children equally with all his heart, regardless of their sexual orientation.

The sin of Sodom was the lack of hospitality. In the desert, that's very important.

[Rodeo]

Not everyone has the same temptations. Some struggle, for example, with porn, others don't.

I used to struggle a lot with porn. I was addicted to it. It is my weakness and I try everyday to stay away from it even though I have a strong attraction/ temptation towards it. I do not believe I was born this way. Perhaps there ws something early in my life that triggered these strong desires, not sure, but I do know they are sinful and I have learned methods for staying away from it. I equate this to those who suffer with same sex attraction. It might be really strong, but as long as they do not give into the temptations of it they can gain in strength to overcome it and remain free from the chains of sin and hell. It is when we give in to those temptations that it hurts us. I am very attracted to members of the opposite sex and know that I need to keep distance from them and keep my interactions with them in a completely short abrupt wholesome manner. If I didn't have Christ or the gospel in my life I would have probably sinned many times with this. Instead I have have been happily married for over twenty years and have never once cheated or had the desire to do so. My weakness has become my strength! But as not to boast, I realize it could very easily turn into a wekaness and so i remain in constant vigilance to ward off temptation, attractions and remain pure to my wife and my God.

[Rodeo]

The sin of Sodom was the lack of hospitality. In the desert, that's very important.

It was because of sexual immorality. Thats where "sodomy" comes from.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

The sin of Sodom was the lack of hospitality. In the desert, that's very important.

That was the greater sin, but doesn't negate the sin of homosexual activity.

[Guest]

I have obviously been accused of gay bashing. I just want to clarify I have never done any gay bashing. My heart goes out to those who struggle I do want to have abetter understanding of the issues but at the same time I do not want to fall nto the trap of calling that which is wrong to be right. Immoral behavior is always sin. There has been a push by the gay agenda to make homosexuality an alternative normal practice. It has crept into the church also amongst members and we even see many fall away over the myriad of issues. I do wonder though how much of this is due to Satan and his works. I found this talk to be helpful in my understanding-https://www.lds.org/ensign/1995/10/same-gender-attraction?lang=eng&query=lesbianAt the same time in my study I also found this talk by Spencer W. Kimball- https://www.lds.org/ensign/1980/11/president-kimball-speaks-out-on-morality?lang=eng&query=homosexual+spencer+w.+kimballSo that I cannot be accused of gay bashing I want to quote Spencer W. Kimball which I feel truly represents our awful situation in the world today-" This heinous homosexual sin is of the ages. Many cities and civilizations have gone out of existence because of it. It was present in Israel’s wandering days, tolerated by the Greeks, and found in the baths of corrupt Rome.This is a most unpleasant subject to dwell upon, but I am pressed to speak of it boldly so that no youth in the Church will ever have any question in his mind as to the illicit and diabolical nature of this perverse program. Again, Lucifer deceives and prompts logic and rationalization which will destroy men and women and make them servants of Satan forever. Paul told Timothy:“For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;“And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be mined unto fables.” (2 Tim. 4:3–4; See also Moses 5:50–55.)“God made me that way,” some say, as they rationalize and excuse themselves for their perversions. “I can’t help it,” they add. This is blasphemy. Is man not made in the image of God, and does he think God to be “that way”? Man is responsible for his own sins. It is possible that he may rationalize and excuse himself until the groove is so deep he cannot get out without great difficulty, but this he can do. Temptations come to all people. The difference between the reprobate and the worthy person is generally that one yielded and the other resisted. It is true that one’s background may make the decision and accomplishment easier or more difficult, but if one is mentally alert, he can still control his future. That is the gospel message—personal responsibility."I am trying to understand the issue and I am constantly coming back to the same conclusion every time- The influence and acceptance of immoral behavior is just adding fuel to the fire in every facet which includes homosexual behavior.

OK...I have a gay child, who can make me laugh more than anyone living. She never and I mean never expressed any interest in boys. But their are many who are not gay and never marry and remain obedient to the commandments, also many gays do the same. If she must suffer any punishment, I will gladly endure it for her...her and all my children. Not long ago, in anger she expressed contempt for all I believe and all that I am. I did not handle it well. I cursed God and wanted to die. I feel like I have failed her and that is a burden to horrible to bare. When you are a parent only one batting average counts...1,000, no losses are acceptable. You say you want to understand...then be kind and loving toward all who are gay, love them as you would any other...but hold true to what is right and what is wrong. Be willing to be kind to even those who my despise you.

[Guest]

The sin of Sodom was the lack of hospitality. In the desert, that's very important.

God destroyed a city for bad manors? Maybe a reread of the event might help. BTW, that is pure nonsense.

[Tsuzuki]

It was because of sexual immorality. Thats where "sodomy" comes from.

It's a misnomer. I never use the word "sodomy" to refer to homosexuality.

[rockpond]

Now every case isnt like this but I do question the real issue at hand- why do some people end up in homosexual relationships.

 

Well, if someone has a homosexual orientation they still have the same desire as the rest of us for love and companionship.

 

 

Same sex attraction may indeed be just defined really as same sex temptation.

 

That would imply that if one was to eliminate the "same sex temptation" that they would then have a heterosexual orientation.  I have not found this to be the case with the gay people that I know.

 

And that statement seems difficult to apply to the situations of the countless gay men & lesbian women who entered into mixed-orientation marriages... stayed in those marriages for years if not decades... had families... but in the end just could not make themselves "heterosexual".

[JLHPROF]

God destroyed a city for bad manors? Maybe a reread of the event might help. BTW, that is pure nonsense.

 

Actually, that's exactly what Hugh Nibley taught in Approaching Zion.  It surprised me too, but upon checking his references he is correct.

 

"It was the practice in Sodom and Gomorrah, we are told, to rob all strangers of their money and then let them starve to death because they could not buy food; and the cities' inhabitants would put nets over their trees so that the birds would have no free lunch on their fruit. For Abraham, such meanness, as we have seen, was the last straw, and "he cursed them in the name of his God." - Hugh Nibley

 

AND

 

Ezekiel 16

49 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.

50 And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.

 

 

But I am sure their lusts weren't exactly redeeming qualities either.

Edited September 12, 2014 by JLHPROF

[Tsuzuki]

That was the greater sin, but doesn't negate the sin of homosexual activity.

I'm still not convinced that consensual homosexual activity is a sin. What is the reasoning behind it?

[rockpond]

...we didnt have gay advocay groups who push immoral behavior agendas, etc?

 

By "immoral behavior agendas" you mean fighting for the right to have their committed & covenanted marriages legally recognized?

[Tsuzuki]

I like how "immoral behavior agendas" can be defined as anything.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

I'm still not convinced that consensual homosexual activity is a sin. What is the reasoning behind it?

Because He said so... God doesn't need to explain his reason to me, you, our neighbors, the President or anyone else.

[JLHPROF]

I'm still not convinced that consensual homosexual activity is a sin. What is the reasoning behind it?

 

The sin is the same sin as always - it's life vs. death. 

Homosexual relationships prevent life/future generations from forming.   Procreation is the very order of existence.  It is eternal increase.  It is part of progression.  Scripturally ANY activity that is anti-life or stops life from progressing is sinful in nature.  God's entire work is about creating and extending life.

 

Eternities without end, homosexuality cannot bring to pass life.  Therefore it violates eternal law.

Edited September 12, 2014 by JLHPROF

[rockpond]

God destroyed a city for bad manors? Maybe a reread of the event might help. BTW, that is pure nonsense.

 

That was the greater sin, but doesn't negate the sin of homosexual activity.

 

It was because of sexual immorality. Thats where "sodomy" comes from.

 

The sin of Sodom was the lack of hospitality. In the desert, that's very important.

 

This blogger has provided a good collection of LDS quotes/scriptures on the reasons for Sodom's destruction.  I think that the only sin we can conclusively point to was general wickedness.  And less than 10 righteous people.

 

http://scottwoodward.org/sodom-gomorrah_sins.html

Edited September 12, 2014 by rockpond