Towards A Better Understanding Of Same Sex Attraction And Sin

[Rodeo]

Rodeo, I do have a serious question to ask you since you seem to be the most concerned with gays being less monogamous than straight men.  And I assume you realize that the majority of gay men do not share your religious views.  So here is the question/

 

What reasons would you give a gay man to convince him he should be monogamous?

My counsel would be not to have any intimate relationship at all. My opinion is tjat the whole structure of a gay relationship leafs to misery. Its a disease just like pornography, it satisfies some temporary pleasure and leaves one empty in the end.

[wenglund]

  

You see, Tsuzuki, it's actually very simple... Only those who agree with Wade are "grown up" and free from the grasp of pop culture.

 

Not surprisingly, you are confusing simple with over-simplification.

 

Wow. Not even the winky at the end can compensate for the blatant judgment going on in that post.

You really covered your bases. You accused him of being juvenile, immature, ignorant, and he needs to grow up.

 

Yes...and all that in stark contrast to his board icon. LOL

 

Folks, please keep in mind that my assessment/judgement was not a general indictment of his over all nature or even his position on homosexuality, but rather specific to his views on purely sexual and open relationships. Surely you aren't suggesting that advocacy of purely sexual and open relationships is a mature position, are you?

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited September 16, 2014 by wenglund

[Rodeo]

And as a counter to the "study" you linked to Rodeo (sorry, I just have to put it in quotes because of its content) 

 

This link will give you reference to SIX STUDIES which counter your claims:

 

http://journalistsresource.org/studies/society/gender-society/same-sex-marriage-children-well-being-research-roundup

 

And so just so you don't think I'm pulling the studies from the "Make the World Gay and Destroy Families Committee" or something... here's the academic institutions that make up these studies:

 

- Stanford University

- UCLA

- UCSF

- Florida State University

- Michigan State University

- University of Virginia

- University of Amsterdam

- Tufts University

- Boston Medical Center

- New York State Psychiatric Institute

- The Committee of Psychosocial Aspect of Child and Family Health

 

Here's the most recent study on this issue I could find.  From the University of Melbourne in Australia.  Linked from NBC News, also can be seen reported on by The Washington Post and dozens of other well respected news organizations.

 

"Children of Same Sex Parent are healthier: Study"

http://www.nbcnews.com/health/kids-health/children-same-sex-parents-are-healthier-study-n149901

http://www.frc.org/issuebrief/new-study-on-homosexual-parents-tops-all-previous-research

If you really think children are better ofg raised by gay patents then you have definitely lost touch to reality and everything our church teaches.

[Brian 2.0]

http://www.frc.org/issuebrief/new-study-on-homosexual-parents-tops-all-previous-research

If you really think children are better ofg raised by gay patents then you have definitely lost touch to reality and everything our church teaches.

Do you realize that the journal that published that study has discredited it in a scathing audit, calling it severely flawed?

http://chronicle.com/blogs/percolator/controversial-gay-parenting-study-is-severely-flawed-journals-audit-finds/30255

Here's just one of the many problems in the study you cite:

Among the problems Sherkat identified is the paper’s definition of “lesbian mothers” and “gay fathers”—an aspect that has been the focus of much of the public criticism. A woman could be identified as a “lesbian mother” in the study if she had had a relationship with another woman at any point after having a child, regardless of the brevity of that relationship and whether or not the two women raised the child as a couple.

Sherkat said that fact alone in the paper should have “disqualified it immediately” from being considered for publication.

You gotta do better than that.

[Tsuzuki]

Surely you aren't suggesting that advocacy of purely sexual and open relationships is a mature position, are you?

As with any kind of relationship, that would depend on the maturity of the people involved, though sweeping generalizations aren't exactly helpful in making that assessment.

[GingerRed]

Rodeo I think you need to chill a little. Gay people are still a child of God just like everyone else.

 

Let me tell you my experience.

 

I never met any gay person until I lived in San Francisco. I moved there from a very small town in upstate NY.  I have a love of dance so I minored in dance in college there.  And yes I had some gay men in my classes. ( no I don't mean to be stereotypical, ok, just stating a fact). There was also a very hot looking dude in my speech class who was gay. I always used to joke why all the best looking guys were gay! LOL.  You know what I found? And anyone can correct me if I'm wrong. But the gay men I got to know in my classes were some of the sweetest, fun, nicest guys I ever met!  I surprised to learn that a lot of gay men have a high respect for women. They spoke very highly of the women in their lives, sisters, friends, especially their moms. I actually felt safe around these guys cause I knew I didn't have to worry about them hitting on me! LOL.  If some jerk WAS hitting on me that I didn't like,  they'd come to my defense!  They would speak also very lovingly of their partners.  And I don't mean in sexual ways. They would admire their sense of humor or they way they loved their pets or how giving they were.  Now for me , what they did in their bedroom was none of my business and I didn't want to hear about that! I'll be honest and say, that would make me go eww!  But....after 3 years of this experience it certainly opened my eyes to a side I hadn't seen before.  Now here in UT, I've met a few gay men that I have chatted with and got know a little. There was a man that worked at a grocery store in Lehi that I saw every morning at the checkout. He was so funny and kind! When he told me his partner got very ill, I prayed for him. He told me his Bishop came and gave him a blessing and he got better. Then this man died suddenly (heart related), I cried.  Right now I'm Facebook friends with these two gay men I met in Vegas who live in Dallas and they co-own the most awesome flower shop and catering business I've ever seen! ( I love the way they call me 'darlin' in their cute Texas accent)  These guys know I'm Mormon. They don't care. I know they are gay. So what? I don't judge.

 

Do I believe in SSM? No. Do I think homosexual behavior is a sin? Yes.  Am I to judge? Nope. Not my place.

 

The point I'm trying to make is , Rodeo, is you paint all gays with such a harsh, negative, degrading, condemning, mean spirited way!  That makes me sad for you. You sound like you're talking out of fear, not out of compassion.  I consider myself a strong active LDS, and even I'm offended. Why does all this bother you so? 

 

 

Red

[wenglund]

As with any kind of relationship, that would depend on the maturity of the people involved, though sweeping generalizations aren't exactly helpful in making that assessment.

 

Upon further reflection, I may have been somewhat charitable in considering the practice of purely sexual relationships to be youthfully immature. I could just as rightly considered it as animalistic and devolved (pre-Neanderthal). Animals, such as dogs, often have purely sexual relationships. We humans are supposed to have progressed well beyond dogs in such things, though evidently in some cases and in some respects, some of us have yet to evolve. Modern urbanites get this (see HERE, definition #3--warning, vulgar language).

 

Of course this is said somewhat tongue-in-cheek. 

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited September 16, 2014 by wenglund

[rockpond]

Rodeo I think you need to chill a little. Gay people are still a child of God just like everyone else.

 

Let me tell you my experience.

 

I never met any gay person until I lived in San Francisco. I moved there from a very small town in upstate NY.  I have a love of dance so I minored in dance in college there.  And yes I had some gay men in my classes. ( no I don't mean to be stereotypical, ok, just stating a fact). There was also a very hot looking dude in my speech class who was gay. I always used to joke why all the best looking guys were gay! LOL.  You know what I found? And anyone can correct me if I'm wrong. But the gay men I got to know in my classes were some of the sweetest, fun, nicest guys I ever met!  I surprised to learn that a lot of gay men have a high respect for women. They spoke very highly of the women in their lives, sisters, friends, especially their moms. I actually felt safe around these guys cause I knew I didn't have to worry about them hitting on me! LOL.  If some jerk WAS hitting on me that I didn't like,  they'd come to my defense!  They would speak also very lovingly of their partners.  And I don't mean in sexual ways. They would admire their sense of humor or they way they loved their pets or how giving they were.  Now for me , what they did in their bedroom was none of my business and I didn't want to hear about that! I'll be honest and say, that would make me go eww!  But....after 3 years of this experience it certainly opened my eyes to a side I hadn't seen before.  Now here in UT, I've met a few gay men that I have chatted with and got know a little. There was a man that worked at a grocery store in Lehi that I saw every morning at the checkout. He was so funny and kind! When he told me his partner got very ill, I prayed for him. He told me his Bishop came and gave him a blessing and he got better. Then this man died suddenly (heart related), I cried.  Right now I'm Facebook friends with these two gay men I met in Vegas who live in Dallas and they co-own the most awesome flower shop and catering business I've ever seen! ( I love the way they call me 'darlin' in their cute Texas accent)  These guys know I'm Mormon. They don't care. I know they are gay. So what? I don't judge.

 

Do I believe in SSM? No. Do I think homosexual behavior is a sin? Yes.  Am I to judge? Nope. Not my place.

 

The point I'm trying to make is , Rodeo, is you paint all gays with such a harsh, negative, degrading, condemning, mean spirited way!  That makes me sad for you. You sound like you're talking out of fear, not out of compassion.  I consider myself a strong active LDS, and even I'm offended. Why does all this bother you so? 

 

 

Red

 

Thank you for the "breath of fresh air" in the thread.

[Rodeo]

Rodeo I think you need to chill a little. Gay people are still a child of God just like everyone else.

 

Let me tell you my experience.

 

I never met any gay person until I lived in San Francisco. I moved there from a very small town in upstate NY.  I have a love of dance so I minored in dance in college there.  And yes I had some gay men in my classes. ( no I don't mean to be stereotypical, ok, just stating a fact). There was also a very hot looking dude in my speech class who was gay. I always used to joke why all the best looking guys were gay! LOL.  You know what I found? And anyone can correct me if I'm wrong. But the gay men I got to know in my classes were some of the sweetest, fun, nicest guys I ever met!  I surprised to learn that a lot of gay men have a high respect for women. They spoke very highly of the women in their lives, sisters, friends, especially their moms. I actually felt safe around these guys cause I knew I didn't have to worry about them hitting on me! LOL.  If some jerk WAS hitting on me that I didn't like,  they'd come to my defense!  They would speak also very lovingly of their partners.  And I don't mean in sexual ways. They would admire their sense of humor or they way they loved their pets or how giving they were.  Now for me , what they did in their bedroom was none of my business and I didn't want to hear about that! I'll be honest and say, that would make me go eww!  But....after 3 years of this experience it certainly opened my eyes to a side I hadn't seen before.  Now here in UT, I've met a few gay men that I have chatted with and got know a little. There was a man that worked at a grocery store in Lehi that I saw every morning at the checkout. He was so funny and kind! When he told me his partner got very ill, I prayed for him. He told me his Bishop came and gave him a blessing and he got better. Then this man died suddenly (heart related), I cried.  Right now I'm Facebook friends with these two gay men I met in Vegas who live in Dallas and they co-own the most awesome flower shop and catering business I've ever seen! ( I love the way they call me 'darlin' in their cute Texas accent)  These guys know I'm Mormon. They don't care. I know they are gay. So what? I don't judge.

 

Do I believe in SSM? No. Do I think homosexual behavior is a sin? Yes.  Am I to judge? Nope. Not my place.

 

The point I'm trying to make is , Rodeo, is you paint all gays with such a harsh, negative, degrading, condemning, mean spirited way!  That makes me sad for you. You sound like you're talking out of fear, not out of compassion.  I consider myself a strong active LDS, and even I'm offended. Why does all this bother you so? 

 

 

Red

I have gay friends and family members. My gay cousin is the nicest guy on the planet, always has been. That still doesnt change the fact or cover up his sinful lifestyle. I feel the same way about drug addicts. I used to be one and hated myself for it. My wifes family has been extremely ravaged by the plague of meth in her immediate family. We have watched how members of her family, one by one, have fallen victim, lost their families, went to prison only to get out and still be hooked on the meth. One of my wifes family members we rescued fro the life of meth and he lives near us now and works alongside me day to day. I tell him every day how much I hate meth and those on it how they ruin everyones lives. I love him like a brother and he loves me. So, one really can love the sinner but hate the sin. Homosexuality is no different. Let us not hide behind the flowery good attributes they have to say their lives are fine when in reality their lifestyles do not lead back to God. If we truly love them we try to help them and try to convert them to Christ in both word and deed. We are not going to get their through ignorance though.

[rockpond]

My counsel would be not to have any intimate relationship at all. My opinion is tjat the whole structure of a gay relationship leafs to misery. Its a disease just like pornography, it satisfies some temporary pleasure and leaves one empty in the end.

 

My experience with the gay couples that I know personally is quite different than what you describe.  Then again, I don't form my opinions from propaganda put out by a lobbying organization (FRC.org).

[rockpond]

If we truly love them we try to help them and try to convert them to Christ in both word and deed. We are not going to get their through ignorance though.

 

You won't get there through your methods on this thread either.

[Rodeo]

My experience with the gay couples that I know personally is quite different than what you describe.  Then again, I don't form my opinions from propaganda put out by a lobbying organization (FRC.org).

Quite a few of my links earlier were straight from gays who have lived the lifestyle. I go to all sources, all sides to get information.

[wenglund]

You won't get there through your methods on this thread either.

 

It will for those who correctly understand the difference between love and appeasement.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[GingerRed]

I have gay friends and family members. My gay cousin is the nicest guy on the planet, always has been. That still doesnt change the fact or cover up his sinful lifestyle. I feel the same way about drug addicts. I used to be one and hated myself for it. My wifes family has been extremely ravaged by the plague of meth in her immediate family. We have watched how members of her family, one by one, have fallen victim, lost their families, went to prison only to get out and still be hooked on the meth. One of my wifes family members we rescued fro the life of meth and he lives near us now and works alongside me day to day. I tell him every day how much I hate meth and those on it how they ruin everyones lives. I love him like a brother and he loves me. So, one really can love the sinner but hate the sin. Homosexuality is no different. Let us not hide behind the flowery good attributes they have to say their lives are fine when in reality their lifestyles do not lead back to God. If we truly love them we try to help them and try to convert them to Christ in both word and deed. We are not going to get their through ignorance though.

 

 

Well geesh Rodeo, what do you suggest? Jump on the Westboro Baptist Church bandwagon?? 

 

 

 

 

Red

[Tacenda]

I have gay friends and family members. My gay cousin is the nicest guy on the planet, always has been. That still doesnt change the fact or cover up his sinful lifestyle. I feel the same way about drug addicts. I used to be one and hated myself for it. My wifes family has been extremely ravaged by the plague of meth in her immediate family. We have watched how members of her family, one by one, have fallen victim, lost their families, went to prison only to get out and still be hooked on the meth. One of my wifes family members we rescued fro the life of meth and he lives near us now and works alongside me day to day. I tell him every day how much I hate meth and those on it how they ruin everyones lives. I love him like a brother and he loves me. So, one really can love the sinner but hate the sin. Homosexuality is no different. Let us not hide behind the flowery good attributes they have to say their lives are fine when in reality their lifestyles do not lead back to God. If we truly love them we try to help them and try to convert them to Christ in both word and deed. We are not going to get their through ignorance though.

Everyone sins differently, including you!  In fact if you told a lie, weren't completely honest when filing your taxes, didn't keep the Sabbath Day holy, you sinned.  If you looked at a women and had lust in your heart, who was it that said that, Jimmy Carter?  You sinned.  If you coveted your neighbor's new car, you sinned....

 

I think you need to be converted to Christ in both word and deed a little more if you did any of these sins, right away.   And if you believe in apostles, Elder Uchtdorf is callin..... 

[Rodeo]

You won't get there through your methods on this thread either.

Perhaps we need to really address what causes SSA then. I will start- My belief is that some are more predisposed than others. So, how does one go from SSA to being in an active relationship? Temptation? I believe so.

[Rodeo]

Everyone sins differently, including you!  In fact if you told a lie, weren't completely honest when filing your taxes, didn't keep the Sabbath Day holy, you sinned.  If you looked at a women and had lust in your heart, who was it that said that, Jimmy Carter?  You sinned.  If you coveted your neighbor's new car, you sinned....

 

I think you need to be converted to Christ in both word and deed a little more if you did any of these sins, right away.   And if you believe in apostles, Elder Uchtdorf is callin.....

We all sin. We all help each other out. Just thought an open discussion could dispell some myths.

[wenglund]

Please keep in mind that sometimes the repeated and grating blare of a horn or the irritating clang of bell is needed to guide ships through the dense cultural fogs and away from harmful shoals, 

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[california boy]

Rodeo I think you need to chill a little. Gay people are still a child of God just like everyone else.

 

Let me tell you my experience.

 

I never met any gay person until I lived in San Francisco. I moved there from a very small town in upstate NY.  I have a love of dance so I minored in dance in college there.  And yes I had some gay men in my classes. ( no I don't mean to be stereotypical, ok, just stating a fact). There was also a very hot looking dude in my speech class who was gay. I always used to joke why all the best looking guys were gay! LOL.  You know what I found? And anyone can correct me if I'm wrong. But the gay men I got to know in my classes were some of the sweetest, fun, nicest guys I ever met!  I surprised to learn that a lot of gay men have a high respect for women. They spoke very highly of the women in their lives, sisters, friends, especially their moms. I actually felt safe around these guys cause I knew I didn't have to worry about them hitting on me! LOL.  If some jerk WAS hitting on me that I didn't like,  they'd come to my defense!  They would speak also very lovingly of their partners.  And I don't mean in sexual ways. They would admire their sense of humor or they way they loved their pets or how giving they were.  Now for me , what they did in their bedroom was none of my business and I didn't want to hear about that! I'll be honest and say, that would make me go eww!  But....after 3 years of this experience it certainly opened my eyes to a side I hadn't seen before.  Now here in UT, I've met a few gay men that I have chatted with and got know a little. There was a man that worked at a grocery store in Lehi that I saw every morning at the checkout. He was so funny and kind! When he told me his partner got very ill, I prayed for him. He told me his Bishop came and gave him a blessing and he got better. Then this man died suddenly (heart related), I cried.  Right now I'm Facebook friends with these two gay men I met in Vegas who live in Dallas and they co-own the most awesome flower shop and catering business I've ever seen! ( I love the way they call me 'darlin' in their cute Texas accent)  These guys know I'm Mormon. They don't care. I know they are gay. So what? I don't judge.

 

Do I believe in SSM? No. Do I think homosexual behavior is a sin? Yes.  Am I to judge? Nope. Not my place.

 

The point I'm trying to make is , Rodeo, is you paint all gays with such a harsh, negative, degrading, condemning, mean spirited way!  That makes me sad for you. You sound like you're talking out of fear, not out of compassion.  I consider myself a strong active LDS, and even I'm offended. Why does all this bother you so? 

 

 

Red

 

Your experience is much more in keeping with my life experience as well.  About half of my friends are gay.  Many of the gay friends I have met since coming out are some of the most kind and charitable people I have ever encountered.  If the purpose of this life is to become more Christlike, then they are well on their way to fulfilling their purpose in life.  You can go to church every sunday and be monogamous and still not live a life full of love and kindness towards others.  Christ spent most of His time here on earth telling those that followed Him to love one another.  

 

I believe that Christ would want the members of His church to be more concerned with teaching others how to be Christlike than to focus on who they slept with.  These men are gay.  They are attracted to members of the same sex.  Sure Mormons believe they should be celibate and live lives without any companionship.  But we all learn a lot of very important lessons when we give our hearts to our chosen companions.  Perhaps that is why God has also said. "It is not good for man to be alone."  Perhaps it is why the church has always until only quite recently preached against a celibate life.

 

Some of the posts here are just ugly and hateful.  They are filled with judgements, broad brushed condemnation and feel nothing like the love the Savior talked about and the example He set for us.  If this kind of behavior is something that members are getting out of the church, then they are missing what the gospel of Jesus Christ stands for.  

 

Are gay men sinless?  Nope.  Should members of the church focus on the sins of others rather than their own sins?  Not according to the teachings of Christ.  Have some forgotten that?  

 

Thanks GingerRed for reminding this gay man again, that not all Mormons have filled their lives with judgement and self righteousness.

[Rain]

I have found that the repeated, loud horn either becomes background noise that people tune out or becomes such an annoyance that people leave the place where it is. Even the Holy Ghost knows it is not an effective way to change hearts.

The still, small voice is heard when we soften our hearts and make ourselves ready to hear him. Often the way we soften our hearts is feeling the pain of consequences and then feel the love of our Savior guiding us back. If we want others to come back to us they must feel of our love for them. Sometimes people get the mistaken idea that having rules means we don't love others, but sometimes people also get the mistaken idea that loving others means we don't have rules. Not true. As with parenting the gospel works because we have both.

[rockpond]

Thanks GingerRed for reminding this gay man again, that not all Mormons have filled their lives with judgement and self righteousness.

 

Let me also add my assurance, CB, as someone who works with the youth in the church -- their views on homosexuality are not at all in line with what's being put forward here by Rodeo and Wade.  I think you know that but I just want to put a little reminder out there... as far as I can tell from the youth in my area, they don't see a need to condemn gay people to a life of celibacy (or worse).  The church seems to be moving into good hands as it transitions to the next generation.

[rockpond]

Perhaps we need to really address what causes SSA then. I will start- My belief is that some are more predisposed than others. So, how does one go from SSA to being in an active relationship? Temptation? I believe so.

 

How does one go from being of a homosexual orientation to being in a relationship?  The same way heterosexual people get into a relationship.

 

In the church we do a really good job of teaching our kids the joy and blessing of marriage & family.  For the most part it becomes the goal for all of them... even those who are gay.  

 

So we seek those relationships as part of our nature and as a reflection of what we have been taught (and built a testimony of).

[wenglund]

Your experience is much more in keeping with my life experience as well.  About half of my friends are gay.  Many of the gay friends I have met since coming out are some of the most kind and charitable people I have ever encountered.  If the purpose of this life is to become more Christlike, then they are well on their way to fulfilling their purpose in life.  You can go to church every sunday and be monogamous and still not live a life full of love and kindness towards others.  Christ spent most of His time here on earth telling those that followed Him to love one another.  

 

I believe that Christ would want the members of His church to be more concerned with teaching others how to be Christlike than to focus on who they slept with.  These men are gay.  They are attracted to members of the same sex.  Sure Mormons believe they should be celibate and live lives without any companionship.  But we all learn a lot of very important lessons when we give our hearts to our chosen companions.  Perhaps that is why God has also said. "It is not good for man to be alone."  Perhaps it is why the church has always until only quite recently preached against a celibate life.

 

Some of the posts here are just ugly and hateful.  They are filled with judgements, broad brushed condemnation and feel nothing like the love the Savior talked about and the example He set for us.  If this kind of behavior is something that members are getting out of the church, then they are missing what the gospel of Jesus Christ stands for.  

 

Are gay men sinless?  Nope.  Should members of the church focus on the sins of others rather than their own sins?  Not according to the teachings of Christ.  Have some forgotten that?  

 

Thanks GingerRed for reminding this gay man again, that not all Mormons have filled their lives with judgement and self righteousness.

 

Whether homosexuals in general and as people are uncommonly Christlike or narcissistic, is beside the point. What is at issue is whether their sexual behavior is sinful and/or immoral or not. If it is, then it ought to be condemned rather than condoned or encouraged  

 

In principle, it is little different from adulterers. They may be some of the nicest and most charming people on the planet, but that doesn't factor into whether their adulterous behavior is sinful and immoral or not and whether their behavior should be condemn and discouraged or not. .

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Tsuzuki]

Upon further reflection, I may have been somewhat charitable in considering the practice of purely sexual relationships to be youthfully immature. I could just as rightly considered it as animalistic and devolved (pre-Neanderthal). Animals, such as dogs, often have purely sexual relationships. We humans are supposed to have progressed well beyond dogs in such things, though evidently in some cases and in some respects, some of us have yet to evolve. Modern urbanites get this (see HERE, definition #3--warning, vulgar language).

Of course this is said somewhat tongue-in-cheek.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Ironically, it's dogs that are closer to your ideal of sex for procreation. We humans have developed it into an art form and avenue for spirituality.

[california boy]

Let me also add my assurance, CB, as someone who works with the youth in the church -- their views on homosexuality are not at all in line with what's being put forward here by Rodeo and Wade.  I think you know that but I just want to put a little reminder out there... as far as I can tell from the youth in my area, they don't see a need to condemn gay people to a life of celibacy (or worse).  The church seems to be moving into good hands as it transitions to the next generation.

 

I hope that is true.  I too hope that there will some day be a place for all of God's children in the church without requiring some to a life of celibacy.  It is a lifestyle that the church has preached against for decades.  And it goes against the very God given nature of man itself.