Towards A Better Understanding Of Same Sex Attraction And Sin

[wenglund]

I think that you are over-applying the symbolism.  Pushing it too far.

 

The symbolism and application isn't mine. I have merely passed along what is stated in scriptures (check your Topical Guide and Guide to the Scriptures under Birth, Born, Born Again, Born of God, Spiritually Reborn, Begotten, Children of Christ, Quicken, Baptism, God the Father - Jehovah, etc.). 

 

If you think the scriptures are over-applying the symbolism, then with your superior understanding, take it up with God.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[rockpond]

Well as long as we haven't reached the point of Isaiah 24:5 yet:

"The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant."

because the rest of the stuff in that chapter doesn't sound much fun. But I guess it has to happen at some point before the end.

There was a time when we understood "everlasting covenant" differently than we do today.

[JLHPROF]

There was a time when we understood "everlasting covenant" differently than we do today.

 

Yes, but changing the ordinance still means changing the ordinance.  And unless I misread my time context I believe this prophecy is about the last days.  The world WILL change the ordinances prior to the end times and this WILL be considered breaking the everlasting covenant.

That can include changing marriage beyond what God has revealed.

That can include changing priesthood ordination beyond what God has revealed.

That can include changing the temple ordinances beyond what God has revealed.

 

It's all speculation EXCEPT that the prophet promises that the ordinances will be changed and the covenant broken by many.  I sure don't want to be the one pushing for change to the laws and ordinances of the Church. Someone else can fulfill the prophecy.

[wenglund]

I am a bit confused about your strident importance of procreation and the importance of marriage that you preach.  You have literally been going on for pages on how important marriage is to the plan of salvation, yet you are single?  Shouldn't you be obsessing with your own lack of fulfilling the divine procreation process rather than those who are not even members of the church and don't share this belief???

 

It is my hope that you will redirect your negative obsession with gays and start focusing on the joys of life and the blessings of finding a mate to share your life with.  I hope God blesses you with a rich and fruitful life filled with joy and love and companionship.

 

Like with Daniel, I understand your reticence to discussions about the sin and immorality of homosexual behaviors, and so it isn't surprising that you also would resort to lame attempts at deflection.

 

However, the problem with the way in which you have drawn the false moral equivalency is multifaceted, but primarily consist in your ignoring the important distinction that I freely acknowledge my single state as a sin of omission, but I have been striving to rectify it for decades and have been hampered by the fact that the choice to get married is not entirely my own; whereas with you and Daniel, you have refused to acknowledge your sin of commission, and have striven for some time to not only justify your sin, but elicit sympathy for it and encourage it. 

 

Now, if I had been discussing on message boards for more than half a decade in advocacy of bachelorhood and government endorsements and incentivized encouragement of the same, then you may have a point. Since I haven't, you don't.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[wenglund]

And what do you say about sex between heterosexual couples when procreation is no longer a possibility?  My wife and I are no longer able to have kids.  Are you saying that all of our "couplings" are no longer approved by HF (or at least, LESS approved than the couplings of a younger and fertile couple)?  If so, how dare you denigrate my birthday and Christmas like that!

 

 

I anticipate this canard and addressed it earlier in the thread--see my post # 371.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[wenglund]

If God saw fit to give them the gift of creation just as He did us, I would not be so quick to discount the possibility. It's not much different than God being an exalted primate.

 

If God intended for pigs to fly....

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Tsuzuki]

If God intended for pigs to fly....

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Are you denying that other animals reproduce sexually?

[wenglund]

Are you denying that other animals reproduce sexually?

 

Nothing I have said could rightly be interpreted to suggest that I do.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[GingerRed]

 

 

Thanks GingerRed for reminding this gay man again, that not all Mormons have filled their lives with judgement and self righteousness.

 

This straight gal says , you're welcome.  

 

It think my attitude has been shaped by several things....

 

I wasn't born LDS. I didn't join the church til I was 21.  In San Francisco, of all places! LOL  I was always the white sheep of my family anyway, so becoming LDS came rather naturally.

 

My parents raised me and my brothers without any race issues, bigotry or intolerance in the household.

 

I have been in the medical profession for over 30 yrs. I have seen just about every side of humanity, good and bad. 

 

I think being a convert can lean more towards tolerance of people who are different.  I've noticed that among my many fellow convert friends I have. That doesn't mean I condone anything. It just means that I can see both sides. Don't get me wrong, I'm believe in the Churchs stand on homosexual behavior. I just trust God more to work things out His way, whatever He may choose to do. I just refuse to be hateful and demeaning about it. That's just not me!

 

You wanna hear something funny?  One of my guilty pleasures, that I don't often admit to,  was watching Will and Grace!!  Me, this straight laced good little Mormon gal!! LOL.  Ever since that show I wanted to have a 'Will' in my life!  Isn't that crazy?   Man, I want a gay guy friend who I can hang with and take shopping for clothes! LOL  But where am I going to find one here in Provo/Orem area??    Where is MY Will?  

 

Red

[Tacenda]

This straight gal says , you're welcome.

It think my attitude has been shaped by several things....

I wasn't born LDS. I didn't join the church til I was 21. In San Francisco, of all places! LOL I was always the white sheep of my family anyway, so becoming LDS came rather naturally.

My parents raised me and my brothers without any race issues, bigotry or intolerance in the household.

I have been in the medical profession for over 30 yrs. I have seen just about every side of humanity, good and bad.

I think being a convert can lean more towards tolerance of people who are different. I've noticed that among my many fellow convert friends I have. That doesn't mean I condone anything. It just means that I can see both sides. Don't get me wrong, I'm believe in the Churchs stand on homosexual behavior. I just trust God more to work things out His way, whatever He may choose to do. I just refuse to be hateful and demeaning about it. That's just not me!

You wanna hear something funny? One of my guilty pleasures, that I don't often admit to, was watching Will and Grace!! Me, this straight laced good little Mormon gal!! LOL. Ever since that show I wanted to have a 'Will' in my life! Isn't that crazy? Man, I want a gay guy friend who I can hang with and take shopping for clothes! LOL But where am I going to find one here in Provo/Orem area?? Where is MY Will?

Red

Oh, he's out there. My gay nephew has a bunch of gay friends that hang out. He did live in Orem, and taught high school math. Now he lives in SLC and works for the board of education I believe.

Anyway, I loved "Will and Grace" also. It was probably a breakout sitcom.

Edited September 17, 2014 by Tacenda

[california boy]

Like with Daniel, I understand your reticence to discussions about the sin and immorality of homosexual behaviors, and so it isn't surprising that you also would resort to lame attempts at deflection.

 

I am not quite sure what reticence you have seen from me.  I think I have been pretty open with the fact that I am gay and have a boyfriend.    I also have been pretty reticence with acknowledging that the church views my relationship with him as being sinful.  Did I need to be more clear??

 

 

However, the problem with the way in which you have drawn the false moral equivalency is multifaceted, but primarily consist in your ignoring the important distinction that I freely acknowledge my single state as a sin of omission, but I have been striving to rectify it for decades and have been hampered by the fact that the choice to get married is not entirely my own; whereas with you and Daniel, you have refused to acknowledge your sin of commission, and have striven for some time to not only justify your sin, but elicit sympathy for it and encourage it. 

 

Now, if I had been discussing on message boards for more than half a decade in advocacy of bachelorhood and government endorsements and incentivized encouragement of the same, then you may have a point. Since I haven't, you don't.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

 

 

I know you have a problem with being sarcastic, dismissive and an undying need to always be right, which many women don't find attractive.  But you are also tenacious, and persevere.  So keep working on it.  And perhaps worrying less about what my sins are and more about finding a companion may well do you a world of good.  A relationship is much more fulfilling than writing a blog about other peoples sins.  I wish you the best in your quest in finding someone to share your life with.

 

The sinner, California Boy

(that was for you Wade, because evidently you missed it before)

Edited September 17, 2014 by california boy

[Brian 2.0]

Yes, but changing the ordinance still means changing the ordinance.  And unless I misread my time context I believe this prophecy is about the last days.  The world WILL change the ordinances prior to the end times and this WILL be considered breaking the everlasting covenant.

That can include changing marriage beyond what God has revealed.

That can include changing priesthood ordination beyond what God has revealed.

That can include changing the temple ordinances beyond what God has revealed.

 

It's all speculation EXCEPT that the prophet promises that the ordinances will be changed and the covenant broken by many.  I sure don't want to be the one pushing for change to the laws and ordinances of the Church. Someone else can fulfill the prophecy.

 

This is off-topic, but are you saying that the LDS church will alter the ordinances in a way that God does not approve of?  Or will they be changes by some off-shoot of the current church?

[california boy]

This straight gal says , you're welcome.  

 

It think my attitude has been shaped by several things....

 

I wasn't born LDS. I didn't join the church til I was 21.  In San Francisco, of all places! LOL  I was always the white sheep of my family anyway, so becoming LDS came rather naturally.

 

My parents raised me and my brothers without any race issues, bigotry or intolerance in the household.

 

I have been in the medical profession for over 30 yrs. I have seen just about every side of humanity, good and bad. 

 

I think being a convert can lean more towards tolerance of people who are different.  I've noticed that among my many fellow convert friends I have. That doesn't mean I condone anything. It just means that I can see both sides. Don't get me wrong, I'm believe in the Churchs stand on homosexual behavior. I just trust God more to work things out His way, whatever He may choose to do. I just refuse to be hateful and demeaning about it. That's just not me!

 

You wanna hear something funny?  One of my guilty pleasures, that I don't often admit to,  was watching Will and Grace!!  Me, this straight laced good little Mormon gal!! LOL.  Ever since that show I wanted to have a 'Will' in my life!  Isn't that crazy?   Man, I want a gay guy friend who I can hang with and take shopping for clothes! LOL  But where am I going to find one here in Provo/Orem area??    Where is MY Will?  

 

Red

 

Well if you ever get back to California, I would love going shopping with you and hanging out.  I have a very good sense of design texture, and color.   I need more active Mormons in my life.  So you would be doing me a favor as well.  

[mormonnewb]

Yes, but changing the ordinance still means changing the ordinance.  And unless I misread my time context I believe this prophecy is about the last days.  The world WILL change the ordinances prior to the end times and this WILL be considered breaking the everlasting covenant.

That can include changing marriage beyond what God has revealed.

That can include changing priesthood ordination beyond what God has revealed.

That can include changing the temple ordinances beyond what God has revealed.

 

It's all speculation EXCEPT that the prophet promises that the ordinances will be changed and the covenant broken by many.  I sure don't want to be the one pushing for change to the laws and ordinances of the Church. Someone else can fulfill the prophecy.

 

Hasn't ALL of this already happened?

 

Stopping the practice of polygamy.

Extending the priesthood to blacks.

The 1990 temple ceremony changes.

 

You haven't gone Denver Snuffer on us, have you?  I assume you believe that all of the above changes were ordained by HF, so why not one more change?  HF seems to be far more flexible than we give Him credit for.

[mormonnewb]

I anticipate this canard and addressed it earlier in the thread--see my post # 371.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

 

You wrote quite a bit about the topic, but I don't think you really "addressed" it.  You wrote:

 

"If one removes procreation from the sexual and marital equations (as with homosexuality), then sex is reduced from the divine and sacred (creator/pro-creator) to the carnal and sensual, rendering such relationships no more of value in the eyes of God, if not in the secular interest of the state, than dear and long-term friendships."

 

 

Procreation is also removed from the sexual and marital equations of infertile couples, so why does it have anymore value in the eyes of the state? Sure, HF might factor in the concept of eternal increase, but the state can make no such measurement.  So why should my marriage be valued over the marriage of two (equally infertile) gay men?

 

I can think of one reason that you might appreciate -- it aids in the stability of our FAMILY.  Well, how is my situation any different from that of the two lesbians who have four children?  The state should be willing to overlook our "carnal and sensual" actions in exchange for the benefits of a stable household in which to raise children.  Of course, we've gone round and round about that part before.  So let's get to the real point, which you summed up perfectly:

 

"This is an eternal principle. There is no substantial or eternal/divine reason that the Church will ever encourage sex or marriage between people of the same gender. While men may benefit from deep and abiding friendships with other men, which they can well acheive and have done as friends, there is no progression towards Christ that may be derived by men putting their generative parts where other men evacuate their bowls, or anything of the sort. In fact, the very thought profanes the sacred."

 

 

Let's face it, Wade.  You find sex between gay men really icky.  And trust me, I understand.  But let me fill you in on a little secret.  Some of the people sitting next to you in the pews are doing very similar things in their bedrooms (and maybe even "worse").  To my knowledge, I don't think the Church has taken an official stance on what is out of bounds in the bedroom between a married man and his wife.  That means that your home teaching companion and his wife could be doing "the profane."  The same thing applies to your bishop, stake president, etc.

 

Now, as your online bestie, let me give you a clue as to how to keep your testimony of the Church now that you realize how much "profane" might be in your midst.  DON'T THINK ABOUT OTHER PEOPLE'S SEX LIVES.

 

I have never ONCE even tried to imagine how and in what ways my bishop and his wife express their love for one another.  It's none of my business.  And quite frankly, I know just enough about human sexuality to know that I don't WANT to know.  And perhaps, if you can avoid thinking about the sexual activities of the beloved saints, you can also avoid thinking about those activities as they relate to HF's gay and lesbian children.  Instead of seeing them as a "mismatched" set of sex organs, you could see them as you see straight couples -- two unique individuals made in the image of God, who share a love for one another.

 

Just a thought ...

[GingerRed]

Well if you ever get back to California, I would love going shopping with you and hanging out.  I have a very good sense of design texture, and color.   I need more active Mormons in my life.  So you would be doing me a favor as well.  

 

Really? Well next time I go visit my family in Oakland, (hopefully next year) I'll let you know!  

 

Red

[Rodeo]

Been thinking about this whole SSA thing and was wondering what it is we get attracted to? Is it the shape of the body, certain features of the body, masculinity, feminism, etc.? I ask because I see a lot of couples who are out of shape, overweight, and basic body shapes look similar. Reading about many gay males at least, it seems to be about looks, youth, etc... We know what constitutes "attractive" in general but there seems to be more and more couples who are not in prime shape and bodies are similar. When a gay person says they are attracted to the same sex, what is it they are attracted to? Is it the shape? Is it certain features like the sex organs? Is it something else? I ask in all honesty.

[rockpond]

Been thinking about this whole SSA thing and was wondering what it is we get attracted to? Is it the shape of the body, certain features of the body, masculinity, feminism, etc.? I ask because I see a lot of couples who are out of shape, overweight, and basic body shapes look similar. Reading about many gay males at least, it seems to be about looks, youth, etc... We know what constitutes "attractive" in general but there seems to be more and more couples who are not in prime shape and bodies are similar. When a gay person says they are attracted to the same sex, what is it they are attracted to? Is it the shape? Is it certain features like the sex organs? Is it something else? I ask in all honesty.

It's certainly presumptuous of me to answer that question but I believe the correct answer is: The same thing that makes you attracted to the opposite sex.

In other words, there is no simple answer that fits everyone. Gays are not a homogeneous group and homosexuality is just a complex as heterosexuality.

[thesometimesaint]

We don't know the causes of homosexuality. Studies of identical twines show no genetic component, and our sexual preference is established when we're 3-5 years old. 

[rockpond]

We don't know the causes of homosexuality. Studies of identical twines show no genetic component, and our sexual preference is established when we're 3-5 years old.

The best explanations I've heard seem to suggest that sexual orientation is determined by biological processes that happen during gestation.

I shared this earlier in the thread but BYU professor Dr. Bill Bradshaw does a good job of walking through the research in this lecture:

http://mormonstories.org/byu-professor-bill-bradshaw-on-a-biological-origin-of-homosexuality/

[Rodeo]

I have noticed that with a lot of gay men that they change their voices and appearances as much as possible to be feminine. Why is that? If they are supposed to be attracted to what women normally find attractive- deep pleasant masculine voices, masculine features, why do so many gay guys find feminine guys attractive?

[Brian 2.0]

Been thinking about this whole SSA thing and was wondering what it is we get attracted to? Is it the shape of the body, certain features of the body, masculinity, feminism, etc.? I ask because I see a lot of couples who are out of shape, overweight, and basic body shapes look similar. Reading about many gay males at least, it seems to be about looks, youth, etc... We know what constitutes "attractive" in general but there seems to be more and more couples who are not in prime shape and bodies are similar. When a gay person says they are attracted to the same sex, what is it they are attracted to? Is it the shape? Is it certain features like the sex organs? Is it something else? I ask in all honesty.

If you could figure that mystery out, bottle it into some type of potion (with #9 attached to the name), you'd make billions.

[Rodeo]

We don't know the causes of homosexuality. Studies of identical twines show no genetic component, and our sexual preference is established when we're 3-5 years old.

Sexual preference/sexual orientation can change. I have two family members who changed their sexual orientation because of the events in their lives.

[Daniel2]

Like with Daniel, I understand your reticence to discussions about the sin and immorality of homosexual behaviors, and so it isn't surprising that you also would resort to lame attempts at deflection.

...with you and Daniel, you have refused to acknowledge your sin of commission.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I am puzzled by your profound mis-characterization that I have any sort of "reticence to discussions about the sin and immorality of homosexual behaviors."

Clearly, that is not the case, and you yourself acknowledged earlier in this thread that the topics I often focus most on the board are gay-related topics.

Even more confusing is the fact that CB and myself both acknowledge and understand that Mormonism currently views same-sex behavior (including our own committed and openly acknowledged behaviors) as sinful.

Not sure how you failed to miss these points... so please, go back and read for comprehension. rolls eyes:)

Edited September 17, 2014 by Daniel2

[thesometimesaint]

Sexual preference/sexual orientation can change. I have two family members who changed their sexual orientation because of the events in their lives.

 

All Indians walk in single file. I saw one do it.