Towards A Better Understanding Of Same Sex Attraction And Sin

[Rodeo]

FYI, real scientists do peer-reviewed studies and publish in accredited journals.

 

But hey, if they agree with church leaders, fantastic... cause our church leaders have been so consistently right regarding homosexuality <note sarcasm>.

 

In any case, I see that the answer to my question is "no, there is no way we can get you to stop looking exclusively to an anti-gay lobbying organization for your information on homosexuality".  I guess maybe I should go get all my information on the church from MormonThink.

If you want good studies you have to go to good sources  .

[Rodeo]

It is interesting that the ideals and views of the FRC align with the church. Seems like if I find any organization that aligns with the church ought to be the one sought for above all others.

[Daniel2]

In the interest of answering the aspirations of this thread's title of moving "Towards A Better Understanding Of Same Sex Attraction And Sin," here's an example of "the gay agenda" which some are ensuring to marginalize, decry, judge, and condemn:

Iowa women in love for 72 years finally wed

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/life/2014/09/16/iowa-lesbians-years-secret-relationship-davenport/15703647/

Mike Kilen, mkilen@dmreg.com

1 day ago

The news of Vivian Boyack and Nonie Dubes' marriage after 72 years together spread quickly.

In the days following their wedding in Davenport, the lesbian couple fielded interview requests from national magazines and reporters in Australia, England and Ireland. They got flowers and letters from people they didn't even know.

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/videos/life/2014/09/16/15702847/ 

For so long, their love was not public. But when the news broke about their Sept. 6 wedding, their story was spread across the Internet and social media. In one week, decades of silence ended. They had never before talked to anyone about their relationship.

"In all those 72 years, no one said anything about it, either negative or positive," said Vivian, 91, sitting across the dining hall table from Nonie, 90, on Wednesday at a Davenport retirement community where they have lived since 1987.

Each was smartly dressed in a pink pantsuit. Both were still a little wary, a little unsure, now that it was all out in the open.

Slowly they began to unfold the full story for the first time.

Vivian was a farm girl near Creston. Nonie a farm girl near Yale. Vivian was an indoor girl, spending hours "teaching my dolls," practice for her dream of becoming a teacher. Nonie was an outside girl, helping on the farm and playing basketball, such a rough-and-tumble guard that she once broke a rib during a game.

Neither considered romance much back then. Vivian caught the interest of a boy once who became a friend but she cut that short by telling a schoolmate: "I wouldn't go with him to a dogfight."

Then Nonie saw Vivian from afar one day, and it changed everything. Both were attending Iowa State Teachers College (now known as the University of Northern Iowa) in 1942.

"I could tell you exactly what she had on," Nonie said. "A gray dress with black velvet trim and big pearl buttons."

That was it. They never spoke.

But after Nonie dropped out of school and returned to Yale to work, she heard the school in town needed a new teacher. "I prayed that night that she would come to Yale," Nonie said.

By chance, Vivian saw the job there and got it. She soon met Nonie, who asked her to a movie. Nonie had to work that night but told Vivian to go to the show, and she would join her later.

"She was already bossing me around," teased Vivian, the soft-spoken one in the relationship. "But I had a new friend."

They hit it off.

"What then?" they were asked.

Silence.

"This is difficult for us to talk about," Vivian said.

"No one knew what was happening," Nonie said. "We didn't even know it was anything special. I was just drawn to her. That's all."

"The hand of God was there," Vivian added. "Suddenly, we were in love."

From that day forward, they felt like they were in hiding.

They moved into an apartment above a building where the local mortuary stored its caskets. People just thought they were two young roomies living in an unusual place.

But soon friends started to drift away, and the couple suspected they knew. No one said anything, even after they moved to Glenwood when Vivian got a teaching job there.

"I'm sure back then she would have been fired," Nonie said.

They learned each other's ways. Nonie couldn't cook, and Vivian "couldn't mow a yard no more than the man on the moon." So they divided up duties and made a life together, although holidays with family were spent apart.

In 1947, they moved to Davenport and by 1950 had a house built, settling into the neighborhood. While Vivian continued to teach, Nonie worked office jobs at the local newspaper and sheet metal plant.

They traveled widely in their Lincoln Town Car, venturing to many states and their favorite location several times — the mountains of Banff, Alberta. Vivian was the detailed organizer, planning the trips. Nonie supplied the laughs.

They argued, but it never lasted long.

"I guess it's just the love," said Vivian on what kept them together.

They joined the First Christian Church and sang in the choir. They came to know each other's families. They grew old. They retired. They grew sick, and one time 16 years ago, Nonie was so bad that she spent three months in the hospital with an infection in her back that threatened to make her an invalid. It was tough on them both, but Nonie healed.

"She never shed a tear," Vivian said, proudly. "The day she came home, the sun was streaming in the windows of our cottage. She began to cry."

Through all this they kept quiet, although at times they wished they could live the life of "normal" couples.

"It used to be a mortal sin," Vivian said of living together, "and that was a big bother to us."

Even after the 2009 court decision making same-sex marriage legal in Iowa, leading to 6,000 marriages in the following four years, Vivian and Nonie didn't give it a second thought. They had been hiding it so long.

Until one day a longtime friend came to visit.

Jerry Yeast, 73, of Davenport first met them as a young man in college. He did landscaping for their yard. They have stayed friends since, and the women have proudly watched him grow into old age himself. At first he thought of them as two women who just lived together, until one day he visited their home with his wife and saw only one bed.

"I think they were sharing something with us," he told his wife.

Yeast had often privately thought marriage was only for a man and woman. But after he learned of an extended family member's homosexuality, he began to reconsider his position.

"My journey in accepting same-sex relationships was formed by these two women, so I thought I should thank them," he said.

When he did, Vivian and Nonie told him it was the first time they had talked to anyone about their relationship.

"I was dumbstruck," he said. "I kind of blanked out, until I said, 'My gosh, this is Iowa! You should get married.' "

At first, the women told him that they didn't want to make newspaper headlines. But then they called him back. For "legal reasons," they explained, they would marry. The longtime insurance salesman looked into their legal arrangements and told them everything was solid. So they decided not to marry.

But they called back again later. Something had changed.

A young woman who works in the retirement community had come to them one day.

"She asked us the question," Vivian said. "So we told her we had been together for 70 years. She said, 'awesome.' " She was so excited that she ran down to eat her lunch with the other caregivers and told them.

"We'd been quiet such a long time. It was hard for us."

They eventually told Jerry that they still wanted to marry. It had nothing to do with legalities. Maybe, as Jerry suggested, their marriage would be an inspiration to others.

The decades of silence was ending. Vivian planned the wedding — every last detail. Emotions came out as she shopped for a dress.

"I always wanted a wedding," she said at the shop, admiring the dresses.

More than 30 people were in the First Christian pews that day, and the Rev. Linda Hunsaker presided.

It was no small decision. No gay couple had ever married in the church.

"It's Vivian and Nonie," Hunsaker said of the decision to marry them. "They had been in the church since 1947. They had been deacons and in the choir. We thought of them as a couple. Nobody asked them, but you can't not know. In the church directory, they have their picture together.

"When you don't know somebody, it's easy to make statements about right and wrong. But when you know someone, have a relationship with them, which is what God wants, you want the best for them."

Nonie thought she would be "shaking in my boots" as they sat in their wheelchairs before the assembled. But she wasn't. "I faced the people in the audience. I just found it so wonderful. I'd never felt so good before, in front of that many people," she said.

At last they exchanged wedding rings and vows as "loving partner" and "loving spouse."

"So many wonderful people in our lives were there, people that knew about us but loved us still," Vivian said. "God brought us to this point. We don't know why. It seems like this is an end really, which is a little scary."

The Rev. Hunsaker got only one negative comment of the dozens she fielded in the days after. Jerry Yeast noticed one thing that warmed his heart.

"I began to hear them addressing each other as 'sweetie' or 'dear' which they had never done before in public," he said. "They had learned to live with their heads down so long. And now they don't have to live with their heads down."

Copyright Gannett 2014

Edited September 17, 2014 by Daniel2

[Daniel2]

Yes.

Which portions do you disagree with? In other words, which study do you find faulty?

Would you mind quoting the portion of Wikipedia (or preferably actual studies) that you believe refutes the idea that there is a genetic component to sexual orientation...?

[rockpond]

If you want good studies you have to go to good sources  .

 

True.  Are lobbying groups good sources for factual information?  Or might it be possible that they present data in a way that supports the cause for which they were organized?

[rockpond]

It is interesting that the ideals and views of the FRC align with the church. Seems like if I find any organization that aligns with the church ought to be the one sought for above all others.

 

By all means, go ahead and stand with the FRC.  The church can move forward without you.

[Brian 2.0]

It is interesting that the ideals and views of the FRC align with the church. Seems like if I find any organization that aligns with the church ought to be the one sought for above all others.

 

Thank you for providing me the definition of "Confirmation Bias".  I had forgotten what it meant for a minute.

[Rockerwife]

He has defended his study under great scrutiny. He has even said there may be other approaches to the study but they all too are going to be biased. His study was the first to see long term overall effects of adults who had childhoods raised in different manners. His research results coincide perfectly with what our church leaders have been teaching for hundreds of years. Children do indeed fare the best when raised by a mother and father who are married and stay monogamous and together over the long haul. It also shows from the research that how children are raised does indeed have an impact on how they identify their sexuality later in life.

I'm not sure about this, especially your last sentence.  I have 3 sons, one of them is gay, 2 of them are not.  I'm pretty sure we raised each of them the same.  My parents had 7 children, 2 of them were gay, 5 were not...from what I can remember, my parents parented us all equally.

 

If you would really like to come to a better understanding of same-sex-attraction and sin, just worry about how you are living and how you need to treat others.  Maybe in real life, you treat those who are gay with kindness and charity.  I think you probably do.  It's just that the things you say here, cause actual pain to some of us that have come to a different understanding than you have.

 

I understand that the church has asked members to stand for traditional marriage, they also have made statements that help me continue to stay:

 

We hope that now and in the future all parties involved in this issue will be well informed and act in a spirit of mutual respect and civility toward those with a different position. No one on any side of the question should be vilified, intimidated, harassed or subject to erroneous information...

Before it accepted the invitation to join broad-based coalitions for the amendment, the Church knew that some of its members would choose not to support its position. Voting choices by Latter-day Saints, like all other people, are influenced by their own unique experiences and circumstances. As we move forward from the election, Church members need to be understanding and accepting of each other and work together for a better society.

—The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Nov. 5, 2008 

 

This older statement helps me get through conversations like this.

[rockpond]

I'm not sure about this, especially your last sentence. I have 3 sons, one of them is gay, 2 of them are not. I'm pretty sure we raised each of them the same. My parents had 7 children, 2 of them were gay, 5 were not...from what I can remember, my parents parented us all equally.

If you would really like to come to a better understanding of same-sex-attraction and sin, just worry about how you are living and how you need to treat others. Maybe in real life, you treat those who are gay with kindness and charity. I think you probably do. It's just that the things you say here, cause actual pain to some of us that have come to a different understanding than you have.

I understand that the church has asked members to stand for traditional marriage, they also have made statements that help me continue to stay:

We hope that now and in the future all parties involved in this issue will be well informed and act in a spirit of mutual respect and civility toward those with a different position. No one on any side of the question should be vilified, intimidated, harassed or subject to erroneous information...

Before it accepted the invitation to join broad-based coalitions for the amendment, the Church knew that some of its members would choose not to support its position. Voting choices by Latter-day Saints, like all other people, are influenced by their own unique experiences and circumstances. As we move forward from the election, Church members need to be understanding and accepting of each other and work together for a better society.

—The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Nov. 5, 2008

This older statement helps me get through conversations like this.

^^^ What I wish I would have said. ^^^

Amen. And thank you Rockerwife.

[Rodeo]

I'm not sure about this, especially your last sentence.  I have 3 sons, one of them is gay, 2 of them are not.  I'm pretty sure we raised each of them the same.  My parents had 7 children, 2 of them were gay, 5 were not...from what I can remember, my parents parented us all equally.

 

If you would really like to come to a better understanding of same-sex-attraction and sin, just worry about how you are living and how you need to treat others.  Maybe in real life, you treat those who are gay with kindness and charity.  I think you probably do.  It's just that the things you say here, cause actual pain to some of us that have come to a different understanding than you have.

 

I understand that the church has asked members to stand for traditional marriage, they also have made statements that help me continue to stay:

 

We hope that now and in the future all parties involved in this issue will be well informed and act in a spirit of mutual respect and civility toward those with a different position. No one on any side of the question should be vilified, intimidated, harassed or subject to erroneous information...

Before it accepted the invitation to join broad-based coalitions for the amendment, the Church knew that some of its members would choose not to support its position. Voting choices by Latter-day Saints, like all other people, are influenced by their own unique experiences and circumstances. As we move forward from the election, Church members need to be understanding and accepting of each other and work together for a better society.

—The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Nov. 5, 2008 

 

This older statement helps me get through conversations like this.

I guess I am just not afraid to address the issues and ask the hard questions. I was on a scout campout years ago and we had an incident of some of the boys getting a little too friendly with their grabbing. We immediately set them down and discussed the dangers of porn and homosexual behavior. They are sins. Turns out the boys had found some pornography and sex toys from a neighbors house and their discussions had led to a lil experminentation. Heck, I was a young confused teenager at one time and hadseveral opportunities to choose to be gay. I had several of my friends do gay things back then. Are we really concerned with actual causes of homosexual behavior or are we just too set in believing people are jyst born a certain way and nothing can be done?

[Rodeo]

By all means, go ahead and stand with the FRC.  The church can move forward without you.

I stand with church. Where do you stand? Are you in agreement that homosexual behavior is a sin? How about Same sex marriage, are you completely against it?

[rockpond]

I guess I am just not afraid to address the issues and ask the hard questions. I was on a scout campout years ago and we had an incident of some of the boys getting a little too friendly with their grabbing. We immediately set them down and discussed the dangers of porn and homosexual behavior. They are sins. Turns out the boys had found some pornography and sex toys from a neighbors house and their discussions had led to a lil experminentation. Heck, I was a young confused teenager at one time and hadseveral opportunities to choose to be gay. I had several of my friends do gay things back then. Are we really concerned with actual causes of homosexual behavior or are we just too set in believing people are jyst born a certain way and nothing can be done?

Sorry, you just sound too much like an ignorant hack when you talk about "choosing to be gay". I can't take you seriously.

[rockpond]

I stand with church. Where do you stand? Are you in agreement that homosexual behavior is a sin? How about Same sex marriage, are you completely against it?

I stand with God.

I believe sexual relations outside the bonds of marriage are sinful.

I am adamantly in favor of and an advocate for legal recognition of gay marriage.

[Rodeo]

Sorry, you just sound too much like an ignorant hack when you talk about "choosing to be gay". I can't take you seriously.

I had some sketchy moments. A teenager growing up in the 80's had plenty of homosexual influences and temptations. Some of my friends couldnt resist and tried the homo experience. It happens more than we think, those homosexual opportunities, more than we think experiment with it in one degree or another.

[Rodeo]

I stand with God.

I believe sexual relations outside the bonds of marriage are sinful.

I am adamantly in favor of and an advocate for legal recognition of gay marriage.

So you dont stand with the church then.

[rockpond]

I had some sketchy moments. A teenager growing up in the 80's had plenty of homosexual influences and temptations. Some of my friends couldnt resist and tried the homo experience. It happens more than we think, those homosexual opportunities, more than we think experiment with it in one degree or another.

That sounds like choosing to experiment with a sexual activity. That's quite different than one's sexual orientation, which is generally not a choice. Have you read material on the church website MormonsandGays yet? It'll help clarify the difference... and it does so in the church terminology that you seem to be fond of.

Edited September 18, 2014 by rockpond

[Rodeo]

That sounds like choosing to experiment with a sexual activity. That's quite different than one's sexual orientation, which is generally not a choice. Have you read material on the church website MormonsandGays yet? It'll help clarify the difference... and it does so in the church terminology that you seem to be fond of.

Homosexual behavior is a choice. Behavior can effect orientation. I have three family members whose behavior has indeed changed their orientation.

[rockpond]

So you dont stand with the church then.

The church is a great organization. I love it. I participate fully and joyfully. I serve faithfully (or at least the best that I can). But it is still an organization that is run by fallible mortals. We make mistakes and so the church is not perfect. Thus my answer, I stand with God (again, to the best of my imperfect ability).

[Tsuzuki]

Homosexual behavior is a choice. Behavior can effect orientation. I have three family members whose behavior has indeed changed their orientation.

And I have yet to hear a convincing argument as to why this would matter to a being who created and governs the entire universe.

Edited September 18, 2014 by Tsuzuki

[rockpond]

Homosexual behavior is a choice. Behavior can effect orientation. I have three family members whose behavior has indeed changed their orientation.

Behavior is a choice. I'm not sure that it can significantly impact orientation. Do you have some more FRC propaganda material to support such a position or are we gonna go back to Kimball's erroneous conclusions about that?

Regarding your family members, I do not trust your interpretation of what may or may not have happened to them. Sorry. But you should also know that sexual orientation is generally understood to fall within a scale or spectrum -- maybe those family members sit more toward the middle.

[Rodeo]

Behavior is a choice. I'm not sure that it can significantly impact orientation. Do you have some more FRC propaganda material to support such a position or are we gonna go back to Kimball's erroneous conclusions about that?

Regarding your family members, I do not trust your interpretation of what may or may not have happened to them. Sorry. But you should also know that sexual orientation is generally understood to fall within a scale or spectrum -- maybe those family members sit more toward the middle.

It is intetesting that I was just at a site where gays have teamed up to inform the world that their orientation is by choice. You dont have to believe them though. Dont you find it interesting that I can take you to a conservative site and show you how they think orientation is a choice and you will trash the group as having an agenda but yet I can go straight to the source and you wouldnt believe them anyway. If you dont mind me asking, what is your orientation?

[rockpond]

It is intetesting that I was just at a site where gays have teamed up to inform the world that their orientation is by choice. You dont have to believe them though. Dont you find it interesting that I can take you to a conservative site and show you how they think orientation is a choice and you will trash the group as having an agenda but yet I can go straight to the source and you wouldnt believe them anyway. If you dont mind me asking, what is your orientation?

Heterosexual. I'm married with kids and apparently close to your age as I was also a teen in the 80's.

I haven't "trashed" any group so I'm not sure why you are accusing me of such. What is the site you were just on?

[Rodeo]

Heterosexual. I'm married with kids and apparently close to your age as I was also a teen in the 80's.

I haven't "trashed" any group so I'm not sure why you are accusing me of such. What is the site you were just on?

I am heterosexual also. I chose this orientation once I came to that crossroads in my life. I have been happy with my choice.

Here http://www.queerbychoice.com/

[Rodeo]

Just came to me-

Suppise I was to say that I didnt choose to be Mormon, I was just born into it and the only reason I am Mormon was because I was born this way. Would you believe it? After all, I cant remember a time when I didnt tjink the church was fake, I must have been born this way.

[Rodeo]

Maybe theres a "mormon gene" just like there must be a "catholic gene" and thats why some people are just born mormons and others born as catholics. Just ask them, none of them will ever remember actually choosing to be thst way.