Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted September 19, 2014 Posted September 19, 2014 The pain and suffering of our children is not really something I would "ROFL" at.Fail.Why don't you actually try to understand why I would write what I did. You love to demonize your opponent and their position. You are doing it right now, again. It is a play right out of Saul Alinsky's book. It is rather effective to those that don't know about it.
rockpond Posted September 19, 2014 Posted September 19, 2014 (edited) No Dan, the fact that just because I view it as a choice, there can in now way reasonably said that there is going to be damage done to a gay child. That is what is funny is your over dramatization of said hypothetical event. Good grief you guys just love to take things right out of the liberal hand book. I think Rockpond has not sought to understand Rodeo's position at all. But instead he is trying to trivialize and demonize it. That is the real joke. Fail.Why don't you actually try to understand why I would write what I did. You love to demonize your opponent and their position. You are doing it right now, again. It is a play right out of Saul Alinsky's book. It is rather effective to those that don't know about it. Read through the thread and you'll note that I have patiently responded to Rodeo's questions in an attempt to understand (a courtesy he has NOT returned to me). I have demonized neither him nor his position. You on the other hand send a virtual "laugh" when I mention a child who could NOT choose his sexual orientation. Knowing that he could not change and not wanting to disappoint his parents with being gay he instead opted to attempt suicide (and thankfully failed). Does your "ROFL" reflect the compassion and outreach Elder Cook has asked us to extend? Edited September 19, 2014 by rockpond
Rodeo Posted September 19, 2014 Author Posted September 19, 2014 Natural sexual relations are between a man and woman only.
rockpond Posted September 19, 2014 Posted September 19, 2014 Natural sexual relations are between a man and woman only. Could you define your use of "natural"?
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted September 19, 2014 Posted September 19, 2014 (edited) Read through the thread and you'll note that I have patiently responded to Rodeo's questions in an attempt to understand (a courtesy he has NOT returned to me). I have demonized neither him nor his position. You on the other hand send a virtual "laugh" when I mention a child who could NOT choose his sexual orientation. Knowing that he could not change and not wanting to disappoint his parents with being gay he instead opted to attempt suicide (and thankfully failed). Does your "ROFL" reflect the compassion and outreach Elder Cook has asked us to extend?Ok let me put this into how absurd your comments are. I have ADD. I took meds while growing up. Latter in life I figured out how to deal with it. My daughter has it now. I have told here that there are ways that she too can deal with it that she can make choices to control it. If I look at your comments, me telling her that she has a choice in the matter, that that some how is damaging. THat she is now going to attempt suicide. I fail to see how this is any different with anything that anyone struggles with. I was indeed born this way. but I do not need to be a slave to this issue that I have. People that have gay tendencies do not need to act on them either. They can choose to not act. You want to trivialize this and make it seem like a kid is going to go out and kill himself if his parents told him that he did not need to act on his urges. It is indeed funny that you would go to such lengths to make your opponents position seem unreasonable. There is always more to the story than a kid who is gay tried to kill him self because his parent told him he had a choice. And you think kowtowing to the gay agenda is compassion and love? You really think you are helping them? Edited September 19, 2014 by Mola Ram Suda Ram
Brian 2.0 Posted September 19, 2014 Posted September 19, 2014 I guess people can or cannot have power to choose their attraction. I have to give you props for this Rodeo. I even gave you a rep point. Maybe you've always felt this way over the thread, but this seems like a revised statement from your past statement. Kudos.
rockpond Posted September 19, 2014 Posted September 19, 2014 Ok let me put this into how absurd your comments are. I have ADD. I took meds while growing up. Latter in life I figured out how to deal with it. My daughter has it now. I have told here that there are ways that she too can deal with it that she can make choices to control it. If I look at your comments, me telling her that she has a choice in the matter, that that some how is damaging. THat she is now going to attempt suicide. I fail to see how this is any different with anything that anyone struggles with. I was indeed born this way. but I do not need to be a slave to this issue that I have. People that have gay tendencies do not need to act on them either. They can choose to not act. You want to trivialize this and make it seem like a kid is going to go out and kill himself if his parents told him that he did not need to act on his urges. It is indeed funny that you would go to such lengths to make your opponents position seem unreasonable. There is always more to the story than a kid who is gay tried to kill him self because his parent told him he had a choice. And you think kowtowing to the gay agenda is compassion and love? You really think you are helping them? I have not "kowtowed" to the gay agenda. And yes, I do think I am helping. But I don't expect you to agree. As for your example, ADD and sexual orientation are far from being comparable. So far apart that I find your analogy to be absurd. And everyone can choose to act or not act on their orientation, temptations, attractions, etc. I have never suggested otherwise.
Rodeo Posted September 19, 2014 Author Posted September 19, 2014 (edited) If you are not equating the two then maybe you should stop comparing them... this is at least the second time you've done it which reflects your mindset. I don't know enough about pedophilia to say if it is normal & natural. I suspect that it may be a naturally occurring mental illness. That does not mean that we should allow children to be victimized. p.s. Since I keep answering your questions, would you kindly answer mine? Would you define how you are using "natural and normal"? Natural and normal morality would be a married couple having intimate relations. Natural and normal is that which God has given us as a guide and commandments. What we may think to be natural and normal sometimes turns out to be the opposite and as such have opposite effects that lead one not to happiness but to misery. Homosexuality is one such avenue that leads nowhere good and as such is not a natural or normal behavior. Edited September 19, 2014 by Rodeo
rockpond Posted September 19, 2014 Posted September 19, 2014 Natural and normal morality would be a married couple having intimate relations. Natural and normal is that which God has given us as a guide and commandments. What we may think to be natural and normal sometimes turns out to be the opposite and as such have opposite effects that lead one not to happiness but to misery. So you are defining "natural and normal" as that which God has recommended/commanded?
thesometimesaint Posted September 19, 2014 Posted September 19, 2014 Natural and normal morality would be a married couple having intimate relations. Natural and normal is that which God has given us as a guide and commandments. What we may think to be natural and normal sometimes turns out to be the opposite and as such have opposite effects that lead one not to happiness but to misery. Homosexuality is one such avenue that leads nowhere good and as such is not a natural or normal behavior. Be real careful there.
Rodeo Posted September 19, 2014 Author Posted September 19, 2014 I have to give you props for this Rodeo. I even gave you a rep point. Maybe you've always felt this way over the thread, but this seems like a revised statement from your past statement. Kudos. Thats why we are here. to understand. I honestly cannot say for sure where or how attractions or orientations come from. I do however believe we have control over what we choose and ultimately, for most, they have the power to change those attractions or orientations if they allow themselves to believe such. There are a myriad of things that can effect our attractions and orientations. My opinion is that many of these influences happen in our lives, perhaps even without our direct conscious knowledge, and end up shaping what we ultimately choose. We usually think the whole time we were just born that way. My analogy to being born into the LDS church relates because I have truly never known any other religion and my thoughts firsthand is that I was born this way or that my natural orientation was towards becoming LDS. But there really isnt any scientific proof that shows I have an LDS gene. Influences, persuasion, and the way I grew up with myperceptions led me into that orientation. I do honestly "feel" ( I could be wrong, I do not "know") that the majority of how people end up with their orientations is because of the same factors. I do no believe it was outside of their control or preprogrammed from birth.
Rodeo Posted September 19, 2014 Author Posted September 19, 2014 So you are defining "natural and normal" as that which God has recommended/commanded? We look to God for life and understanding
Rodeo Posted September 19, 2014 Author Posted September 19, 2014 Be real careful there. Why? I honestly believ our church leaders when they say that homosexuality as a lifestyle doesn't bring peace and happiness. (I am not speaking about SSA which is different, I am speaking about the behavior which is sinful)
rockpond Posted September 19, 2014 Posted September 19, 2014 We look to God for life and understanding Is that a "yes" to my question or just your general unwillingness to answer questions?
rockpond Posted September 19, 2014 Posted September 19, 2014 Thats why we are here. to understand. I honestly cannot say for sure where or how attractions or orientations come from. I do however believe we have control over what we choose and ultimately, for most, they have the power to change those attractions or orientations if they allow themselves to believe such. There are a myriad of things that can effect our attractions and orientations. My opinion is that many of these influences happen in our lives, perhaps even without our direct conscious knowledge, and end up shaping what we ultimately choose. We usually think the whole time we were just born that way. My analogy to being born into the LDS church relates because I have truly never known any other religion and my thoughts firsthand is that I was born this way or that my natural orientation was towards becoming LDS. But there really isnt any scientific proof that shows I have an LDS gene. Influences, persuasion, and the way I grew up with myperceptions led me into that orientation. I do honestly "feel" ( I could be wrong, I do not "know") that the majority of how people end up with their orientations is because of the same factors. I do no believe it was outside of their control or preprogrammed from birth. Rodeo -- In the interest of understanding, would you consider reading this letter and sharing your thoughts? http://www.lds-mormon.com/hardy.shtml
california boy Posted September 20, 2014 Posted September 20, 2014 Natural and normal morality would be a married couple having intimate relations. Natural and normal is that which God has given us as a guide and commandments. What we may think to be natural and normal sometimes turns out to be the opposite and as such have opposite effects that lead one not to happiness but to misery. Homosexuality is one such avenue that leads nowhere good and as such is not a natural or normal behavior. Why? I honestly believ our church leaders when they say that homosexuality as a lifestyle doesn't bring peace and happiness. (I am not speaking about SSA which is different, I am speaking about the behavior which is sinful) Well I don't quite know where this leaves me. I am extremely happy with my life. I have a boyfriend that I love dearly and wake up every day, grateful that he is in my life. We share a life together that is rich and filled with happiness. I feel more at peace with God than any time in my life. I must be doing what is natural and normal since the opposite leads to no happiness, but misery. I often reflect on the scripture 'Wickedness never was happiness". It reassures me that I am in a good place. 1
LJP Posted September 20, 2014 Posted September 20, 2014 Rodeo -- In the interest of understanding, would you consider reading this letter and sharing your thoughts? http://www.lds-mormon.com/hardy.shtmlThis is very heart-wrenching. Know that this conversation is not in vain although it may seem as though it is. I'm really getting a clearer understanding to same sex attraction and options. 1
Rodeo Posted September 20, 2014 Author Posted September 20, 2014 Rodeo -- In the interest of understanding, would you consider reading this letter and sharing your thoughts? http://www.lds-mormon.com/hardy.shtml I certainly am no expert in the field of psychology. One of my kids and my sister in law are both in college and their master is in psychology. I ask them about things from time to time and I have discussed this with my kid. There is no easy answer but they do speak about how powerful the mind is about growth and change and some of the studies they have done that show the minds ability to adjust to inputs and belief. In the case of that family in the provided link I cannot really say one way or another without knowing more and actually communicating directly with them and knowing the situation better. Yes, it is a sad experience for all involved but even so, there is more to the issue in the bigger picture that is at stake. A basic war on morality is taking place and each side is settling in the trenches for what appears to be a long ongoing battle with many that will join one side or the other and ultimately one side will win out. Hopefully good prevails and we can come to the real truth behind these issues. But I am afraid that in the process many will lose faith, many will be blinded on both sides of the debate, and in the process many of the faithful saints will walk away from the church looking for greener pastures they will never find. It is true we do not have all the answers. What little we do know is that yes, homosexual behavior is a sin. Same sex attraction is not a sin. Even I myself when I first heard that was a little shocked the church would make such a stand but quickly I studied it out and agreed with the church that attraction itself is not a sin. Attractions are normal in every person. Its in the "how" we apply or do not apply those attractions that matter. I remember my early puberty years as being very awkward with all kinds of strange attractions that I went through. Its important to know though that we can control where and how we direct our thoughts which modify our orientation in either small or large degree. We cannot just cave in under pressure to accept immoral behaviors that ultimately do not lead to happiness. Suicide studies have long been done on gay populations. It is true their suicide rates are higher than in straight populations. What is not understood though is the real direct root cause of the majority of these suicides. I read about one study done in a country where homosexuality was accepted and it showed that suicide rates amongst homosexuals were the same as they are in other countries that shun homosexuality more. Some psychologists believe that homosexuality is a behavior disorder that effects the body and mind which leads them to be suicidal regardless of support and acceptance in society of their behavior. We still have a lot of mountains to climb to understand everything involved more before we just jump off and do what is "politically correct". Its more important to be led by the best men on earth who are the prophets of God. The church is making strides to do what is right and change the mindset of old dogmatic paradigms that didnt work. It reminds me of the little factory masturbation story put out by the church to try to keep youth from masturbation. I remember being a teacher in the Aaronic priesthood years ago and seeing this in one of the manuals and telling my assistant that we flat out were not going to teach these young men this story which we felt was a little too much and perhaps outdated. I am not sure if the church teaches this story anymore or not but I honestly feel a better approach is to deal with facts- everyone of our youth will experiment with their newfound sexuality to some degree or another. Each one will also do immoral things in some degree or another. Its a part of our fallen condition to know our bodies. Some of us may even have unnatural desires such as SSA or attraction to children or who knows what. We do need to openly discuss these issues, treat them as real emotions and feelings and learn how to adjust and control and have power over our behaviors. The wrong step to take midstream however is to just start issuing marriage licenses to anyone and everyone of all types of sexual orientations. As others have wisely noted- where will it stop? Are we going to issue marriage licenses to people o marry their children? Or marry their dogs? Or marry their pet rocks? We would be wise to listen to the prophets, readjust our course and safely reach the other side with the least casualties possible. And right now, that adjustment is SSA is not sinful but same sex behavior itself is sinful and that marriage is between man and woman only and the only place where sexual relations are approved by God.
Rodeo Posted September 20, 2014 Author Posted September 20, 2014 Well I don't quite know where this leaves me. I am extremely happy with my life. I have a boyfriend that I love dearly and wake up every day, grateful that he is in my life. We share a life together that is rich and filled with happiness. I feel more at peace with God than any time in my life. I must be doing what is natural and normal since the opposite leads to no happiness, but misery. I often reflect on the scripture 'Wickedness never was happiness". It reassures me that I am in a good place. Happiness is relative to the present only. Will your relationship last into eternity and be a tree springing forth fruit unto eternal life? This is the point where if our gospel is correct, your happiness is relegated to the present only and will bring no eternal joy.
california boy Posted September 20, 2014 Posted September 20, 2014 Happiness is relative to the present only. Will your relationship last into eternity and be a tree springing forth fruit unto eternal life? This is the point where if our gospel is correct, your happiness is relegated to the present only and will bring no eternal joy.It certainly has a better chance than being married to a woman for eternity. Who we are doesn't suddenly change when we die.
thesometimesaint Posted September 20, 2014 Posted September 20, 2014 Why? I honestly believ our church leaders when they say that homosexuality as a lifestyle doesn't bring peace and happiness. (I am not speaking about SSA which is different, I am speaking about the behavior which is sinful) Homosexuality is not a lifestyle. It is an emotional sexual attraction to another person of the same sex. It is established very early in life. The attraction is not sinful. The acting out on that attraction in sexual ways is considered sinful by the Church.
VideoGameJunkie Posted September 20, 2014 Posted September 20, 2014 California boy I doubt you'll be with a male spouse for eetrnity. Are you a worthy member of the church?
california boy Posted September 20, 2014 Posted September 20, 2014 (edited) California boy I doubt you'll be with a male spouse for eetrnity. Are you a worthy member of the church?Unfortunately, I am no longer a member. Whether I am with a male partner or not has yet to be revealed. I am willing to leave that up to God rather than the speculation of mankind. Edited September 20, 2014 by california boy
rockpond Posted September 20, 2014 Posted September 20, 2014 California boy I doubt you'll be with a male spouse for eetrnity. Are you a worthy member of the church? VideoGameJunkie -- Would the promise of eternity with a spouse of your same gender be an incentive for you to be "a worthy member of the church"?
rockpond Posted September 20, 2014 Posted September 20, 2014 This is very heart-wrenching.Know that this conversation is not in vain although it may seem as though it is. I'm really getting a clearer understanding to same sex attraction and options. Thanks for reading the letter and for commenting!
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