Towards A Better Understanding Of Same Sex Attraction And Sin

[Brian 2.0]

I believe people can choose to be gay or be hetero, bi, trans, etc. Attractions are an interesting thing and we can condition ourselves to be attracted to a myriad of things.

 

You say some here are discounting the evidence of personal testimony from people saying that they can choose to be attracted to the same sex or not.

 

If you believe that ALL people can choose to be gay or straight... aren't you discounting the testimony from people saying that they cannot, not matter how hard they try, not be attracted to the same sex?

 

What makes your insistence that  EVERYONE can choose to be gay or straight any different from other people insistence that NOBODY can choose to be gay or straight?

 

If we actually believe people and what they say... shouldn't we say that SOME people seem to have the ability to choose which sex they are attracted to and SOME people seem to NOT have the ability to make that choice?

Edited September 19, 2014 by Brian 2.0

[rockpond]

I believe people can choose to be gay or be hetero, bi, trans, etc. Attractions are an interesting thing and we can condition ourselves to be attracted to a myriad of things.

I'll pray that you never have a gay child.

[Daniel2]

There certainly seems to be plenty of people on the web who claim to have both chosen their orientation and chose to change it. Maybe they are all part of a conservative conspiracy to work against same sex marriages.

There are a great many people on the Internet who claim a great many things. While we can find value in listening to everyone's stories, does the fact that such stories exist on the internet mean they're all "true"...?

Whether or not ANYONE else can or cannot change their sexual orientation is entirely irrelevant to whether or not same-sex couples who wish to marry have a civil right to do so.

As such, it would be fairly pointless to fear any individuals who claimed to change as part of some "conservative conspiracy to work against same-sex marriage," because whether or not anyone has is entirely irrelevant.

So what about my family member in prison who changed to a lesbian while in there and says she isnt going back to heterosexuality?

I don't know your lesbian family member, but I find it best to respect anyone's choice to live life according to the dictates of their own conscience...whether we're speaking of her, you, me, the men of Northstar, or gays and lesbians who wish to marry.

FWIW, my understanding of the scientific evidence and life experience with others leads me to believe that male homosexuality and female homosexuality stem from different causes, and the latter IS often more fluid than the former, and the range of individuals' experiences should be respected, regardless.

Edited September 19, 2014 by Daniel2

[Daniel2]

I believe people can choose to be gay or be hetero, bi, trans, etc. Attractions are an interesting thing and we can condition ourselves to be attracted to a myriad of things.

You are free to believe whatever you wish, even when it disagrees with science or the LDS church (as your quote above does).

What none of us are free to do is compel others to live contrary to their desires or choices, so long as they don't unjustly and measurably harm others or interfere with their civil rights.

Edited September 19, 2014 by Daniel2

[VideoGameJunkie]

My Patriarchal Blessing says "You will never have to apologize for your children." I still don't know what that means, but maybe it means my children will be gay or mentally disabled or maybe nothing bad at all, but it causes me to wonder.

[Rodeo]

You say some here are discounting the evidence of personal testimony from people saying that they can choose to be attracted to the same sex or not.

 

If you believe that ALL people can choose to be gay or straight... aren't you discounting the testimony from people saying that they cannot, not matter how hard they try, not be attracted to the same sex?

 

What makes your insistence that  EVERYONE can choose to be gay or straight any different from other people insistence that NOBODY can choose to be gay or straight?

 

If we actually believe people and what they say... shouldn't we say that SOME people seem to have the ability to choose which sex they are attracted to and SOME people seem to NOT have the ability to make that choice?

I guess people can or cannot have power to choose their attraction. But there again lies another issue- do we have power over our attractions? Can we modify our minds to control the power of control or are we chained down? What about couples who remain with each other long after the sexual attraction has faded or even disappeared? Are they forced to modify how and in what they are attracted to?

[Rodeo]

I'll pray that you never have a gay child.

Why say such a thing? I would hope that the way I raised them and was involved in their lives abd to constant revelation will be enough to ensure they navigate their youthful journies and find the right path in the end.

[Rodeo]

There are a great many people on the Internet who claim a great many things. While we can find value in listening to everyone's stories, does the fact that such stories exist on the internet mean they're all "true"...?

Whether or not ANYONE else can or cannot change their sexual orientation is entirely irrelevant to whether or not same-sex couples who wish to marry have a civil right to do so.

As such, it would be fairly pointless to fear any individuals who claimed to change as part of some "conservative conspiracy to work against same-sex marriage," because whether or not anyone has is entirely irrelevant.

I don't know your lesbian family member, but I find it best to respect anyone's choice to live life according to the dictates of their own conscious, whether we're speaking of her, you, me, the men of Northstar, or gays and lesbians who wish to marry.

FWIW, my understanding of the scientific evidence and life experience with others leads me to believe that male homosexuality and female homosexuality have different causes, and the latter IS often more fluid than the former.

We have always included morality in making laws. In fact, the two should be inseparable. The biggest threat to our freedom and security is the breakdown and destruction of the traditional family. Our prisons are overran with criminals who came from broken homes. Prophets have long warned us not to accept immorality and make bad good.

[Daniel2]

We have always included morality in making laws.

Well of course we have. All laws contain a sense of morality, and I haven't said otherwise.

In fact, the two should be inseparable.

OK... who gets to be the final arbitrator of what is "moral," when disagreements arise?

The biggest threat to our freedom and security is the breakdown and destruction of the traditional family.

How does "the destruction of the traditional family" threaten freedom?

What IS a "traditional family"?

For how long has it been such?

Our prisons are overran with criminals who came from broken homes.

I agree... divorce wreaks havoc on family--we should do all we can to strengthen couples raising children so they avoid divorce.

Prophets have long warned us not to accept immorality and make bad good.

Sure. Ok. Edited September 19, 2014 by Daniel2

[Tsuzuki]

We have always included morality in making laws. In fact, the two should be inseparable. The biggest threat to our freedom and security is the breakdown and destruction of the traditional family. Our prisons are overran with criminals who came from broken homes. Prophets have long warned us not to accept immorality and make bad good.

Poverty, racism, and a for-profit prison industry play a much bigger role in the erosion of our freedom and security than the disillusion of the fiction of the traditional family.

[Sky]

Jumping into this conversation a bit late, but http://www.mormonsandgays.org is a really great resource for the Church, but still rather untapped.  I think all of us would do well to learn what we can from this website and follow it's example.  Listen, listen, listen, and love, love, love, and try to avoid being preachy or patronizing - and this applies to all of us no matter what 'side' we are on.  This doesn't mean you necessarily have to abandon deeply held beliefs and convictions about marriage or proper sexual behavior and/or love between two people regardless of their gender.  

 

But the Church acknowledges that "the experience of same-sex attraction is a complex reality for many people.  The attraction itself is not a sin, but acting on it is.  Even though individuals do not choose to have such attractions, they choose how to respond to them.  With love and understanding, the Church reaches out to all God's children, including our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters."

 

Beautiful, and also long overdue words, in my opinion.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Rodeo]

I agree we need to listen listen listen and love love love. But, we should be careful that we are not sending the wrong signal that homosexuality is normal or natural. I am afraid that sometimes we may be telling gays that they have no choice but to have a homosexual relationship and that eventually we will support and condone the lifestyle. We have somewhat been duped into thinking that a gay lifestyle is praiseworthy by sugarcoating it. That is why I like to look at the actual statistics and studies showing the ill effects of that lifestyle.

[stemelbow]

I agree we need to listen listen listen and love love love. But, we should be careful that we are not sending the wrong signal that homosexuality is normal or natural. I am afraid that sometimes we may be telling gays that they have no choice but to have a homosexual relationship and that eventually we will support and condone the lifestyle. We have somewhat been duped into thinking that a gay lifestyle is praiseworthy by sugarcoating it. That is why I like to look at the actual statistics and studies showing the ill effects of that lifestyle.

Much of what we do is not normal or natural. And yet for those things we often compliment each other. When it comes to this issue, though, we treat it like not normal and unnatural as if it equates to the devil's doings because it is "not normal or natural".

Homosexuality is not a lifestyle. People gay and straight have similar lifestyles--they work, love, serve, socialize--all of it just the same.

Mistreated minorities, gay people in this instance, often have difficulty with many things in life. They often struggle with education, because they are mistreated. They often are poor as a result. They often don't fit into society in many ways. But that is because they are mistreated. I think gay people are far better treated and regarded now then they were 20 years ago, which was probably better than it was for them 20 years before that. maybe 20 years from now we'll have a better perspective of all of this.

[rockpond]

I guess people can or cannot have power to choose their attraction. But there again lies another issue- do we have power over our attractions? Can we modify our minds to control the power of control or are we chained down? What about couples who remain with each other long after the sexual attraction has faded or even disappeared? Are they forced to modify how and in what they are attracted to?

 

As far as I can tell, sexual orientation runs much deeper than simple sexual attraction.  Those innate desires for intimate (not sexual) companionship do not seem to fade and they do seem to be tied to one's sexual orientation.

[rockpond]

Why say such a thing?

 

Because I have witnessed the damage that an attitude like yours can do to a gay child.

[rockpond]

I agree we need to listen listen listen and love love love. But, we should be careful that we are not sending the wrong signal that homosexuality is normal or natural. I am afraid that sometimes we may be telling gays that they have no choice but to have a homosexual relationship and that eventually we will support and condone the lifestyle. We have somewhat been duped into thinking that a gay lifestyle is praiseworthy by sugarcoating it. That is why I like to look at the actual statistics and studies showing the ill effects of that lifestyle.

 

Could you define your use of natural and normal?  Because as a trained statistician and researcher, I find homosexuality to be both natural and normal.

 

p.s.  There is not one singular gay lifestyle.

[Rodeo]

Much of what we do is not normal or natural. And yet for those things we often compliment each other. When it comes to this issue, though, we treat it like not normal and unnatural as if it equates to the devil's doings because it is "not normal or natural".Homosexuality is not a lifestyle. People gay and straight have similar lifestyles--they work, love, serve, socialize--all of it just the same.Mistreated minorities, gay people in this instance, often have difficulty with many things in life. They often struggle with education, because they are mistreated. They often are poor as a result. They often don't fit into society in many ways. But that is because they are mistreated. I think gay people are far better treated and regarded now then they were 20 years ago, which was probably better than it was for them 20 years before that. maybe 20 years from now we'll have a better perspective of all of this.

Homosexual behavior is not an acceptable behavior.

[Rodeo]

Could you define your use of natural and normal?  Because as a trained statistician and researcher, I find homosexuality to be both natural and normal.

 

p.s.  There is not one singular gay lifestyle.

Is pedophilia natural or normal(I am not equating this with homosexuality)? Why?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Because I have witnessed the damage that an attitude like yours can do to a gay child.

Rofl. What ever.

[rockpond]

Is pedophilia natural or normal(I am not equating this with homosexuality)? Why?

 

If you are not equating the two then maybe you should stop comparing them... this is at least the second time you've done it which reflects your mindset.

 

I don't know enough about pedophilia to say if it is normal & natural.  I suspect that it may be a naturally occurring mental illness.  That does not mean that we should allow children to be victimized.

 

p.s.  Since I keep answering your questions, would you kindly answer mine?  Would you define how you are using "natural and normal"?

Edited September 19, 2014 by rockpond

[rockpond]

Rofl. What ever.

 

The pain and suffering of our children is not really something I would "ROFL" at.

[thesometimesaint]

Is pedophilia natural or normal(I am not equating this with homosexuality)? Why?

 

Depends. As a social scientist it is within the bell shaped curve of human sexual activities. So in that sense it is "natural". Further there is no such thing as "normal" within that bell shaped curve. That being said pedophilia disregards the rights of under-aged minors to not give legal consent to have sex.

[Daniel2]

Because I have witnessed the damage that an attitude like yours can do to a gay child.

Rofl. What ever.

Wow. "Rolling on the floor laughing" about the damage to a gay child...?

Even assuming a difference of opinion or understanding, "ROFL" seems unnecessarily dismissive and unfeeling.

[Daniel2]

But, we should be careful that we are not sending the wrong signal that homosexuality is normal or natural.

Pro-LGBT advocates are not the ones who are hung up on whether or not homosexuality is "normal" (clearly, it's not normal for the h 95+% majority of the human population, which is straight--but for gays and lesbians, it's normal) OR "natural" (this word could mean a variety of things... it's a synonym for 'normal'; it could mean that homosexual expression 'comes naturally' to those with a homosexual orientation, and unnatural to those with a heterosexual orientation; it appears 'in nature'; it's roots are based in 'natural' processes or foundations; etc...)

No gay person I'm aware of decides to be open about their sexuality because merely because they've concluded that it must be OK because it's "normal or natural."

It's ANTI-gay advocates that use "normal and natural" arguments against us.

As others have said, "normal" is relative, and "natural" is vague.

Neither form the foundation of equal dignity, respect, or civil rights for LGBT citizens.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Wow. "Rolling on the floor laughing" about the damage to a gay child...?

Even assuming a difference of opinion or understanding, "ROFL" seems unnecessarily dismissive and unfeeling.

No Dan, the fact that just because I view it as a choice, there can in now way reasonably said that there is going to be damage done to a gay child. That is what is funny is your over dramatization of said hypothetical event.

 

Good grief you guys just love to take things right out of the liberal hand book. I think Rockpond has not sought to understand Rodeo's position at all. But instead he is trying to trivialize and demonize it. That is the real joke.