Towards A Better Understanding Of Same Sex Attraction And Sin

[rockpond]

I certainly am no expert in the field of psychology. One of my kids and my sister in law are both in college and their master is in psychology. I ask them about things from time to time and I have discussed this with my kid. There is no easy answer but they do speak about how powerful the mind is about growth and change and some of the studies they have done that show the minds ability to adjust to inputs and belief. In the case of that family in the provided link I cannot really say one way or another without knowing more and actually communicating directly with them and knowing the situation better. Yes, it is a sad experience for all involved but even so, there is more to the issue in the bigger picture that is at stake. A basic war on morality is taking place and each side is settling in the trenches for what appears to be a long ongoing battle with many that will join one side or the other and ultimately one side will win out. Hopefully good prevails and we can come to the real truth behind these issues. But I am afraid that in the process many will lose faith, many will be blinded on both sides of the debate, and in the process many of the faithful saints will walk away from the church looking for greener pastures they will never find.

It is true we do not have all the answers. What little we do know is that yes, homosexual behavior is a sin. Same sex attraction is not a sin. Even I myself when I first heard that was a little shocked the church would make such a stand but quickly I studied it out and agreed with the church that attraction itself is not a sin. Attractions are normal in every person. Its in the "how" we apply or do not apply those attractions that matter. I remember my early puberty years as being very awkward with all kinds of strange attractions that I went through. Its important to know though that we can control where and how we direct our thoughts which modify our orientation in either small or large degree. We cannot just cave in under pressure to accept immoral behaviors that ultimately do not lead to happiness. Suicide studies have long been done on gay populations. It is true their suicide rates are higher than in straight populations. What is not understood though is the real direct root cause of the majority of these suicides. I read about one study done in a country where homosexuality was accepted and it showed that suicide rates amongst homosexuals were the same as they are in other countries that shun homosexuality more. Some psychologists believe that homosexuality is a behavior disorder that effects the body and mind which leads them to be suicidal regardless of support and acceptance in society of their behavior. We still have a lot of mountains to climb to understand everything involved more before we just jump off and do what is "politically correct". Its more important to be led by the best men on earth who are the prophets of God. The church is making strides to do what is right and change the mindset of old dogmatic paradigms that didnt work. It reminds me of the little factory masturbation story put out by the church to try to keep youth from masturbation. I remember being a teacher in the Aaronic priesthood years ago and seeing this in one of the manuals and telling my assistant that we flat out were not going to teach these young men this story which we felt was a little too much and perhaps outdated. I am not sure if the church teaches this story anymore or not but I honestly feel a better approach is to deal with facts- everyone of our youth will experiment with their newfound sexuality to some degree or another. Each one will also do immoral things in some degree or another. Its a part of our fallen condition to know our bodies. Some of us may even have unnatural desires such as SSA or attraction to children or who knows what. We do need to openly discuss these issues, treat them as real emotions and feelings and learn how to adjust and control and have power over our behaviors.

The wrong step to take midstream however is to just start issuing marriage licenses to anyone and everyone of all types of sexual orientations. As others have wisely noted- where will it stop? Are we going to issue marriage licenses to people

o marry their children? Or marry their dogs? Or marry their pet rocks?

We would be wise to listen to the prophets, readjust our course and safely reach the other side with the least casualties possible. And right now, that adjustment is SSA is not sinful but same sex behavior itself is sinful and that marriage is between man and woman only and the only place where sexual relations are approved by God.

Rodeo --

 

Thank you for reading the letter.  I feel it represents an important viewpoint that often does not get adequately heard.  So I appreciate you taking the time to consider its contents.

 

I'm also glad that you recognize that the church is making progress on the issue and that we currently do not have all the answers.  I think that is important because it portends to forthcoming revelation on the subject.  I think we need that further light and knowledge that awaits.  And, possibly more important, it tells us that we should approach the topic with great humility and compassion.

 

You describe this as a moral war.  While I don't think I can change your opinion on that, I hope that you would agree that there are no acceptable casualties.  Not the young man in this letter.  Not anyone.

 

While I think we, as a church, are doing much better than we were in 1999 when this letter was written, we still have a long way to go and plenty of work ahead of us.

Edited September 20, 2014 by rockpond

[VideoGameJunkie]

Rock pond I asked if he was a worthy member because he said he was involved with another guy and that usually doesn't fly in the church.

[rockpond]

Rock pond I asked if he was a worthy member because he said he was involved with another guy and that usually doesn't fly in the church.

I understand. I'm still interested in your answer to the question I posed.

[VideoGameJunkie]

Ok, I would hate to spend eternity with someone of the same gender as my spouse. I'm not gay. That would give me no incentive to be a worthy member of the church.

[Rodeo]

Rodeo --

 

Thank you for reading the letter.  I feel it represents an important viewpoint that often does not get adequately heard.  So I appreciate you taking the time to consider its contents.

 

I'm also glad that you recognize that the church is making progress on the issue and that we currently do not have all the answers.  I think that is important because it portends to forthcoming revelation on the subject.  I think we need that further light and knowledge that awaits.  And, possibly more important, it tells us that we should approach the topic with great humility and compassion.

 

You describe this as a moral war.  While I don't think I can change your opinion on that, I hope that you would agree that there are no acceptable casualties.  Not the young man in this letter.  Not anyone.

 

While I think we, as a church, are doing much better than we were in 1999 when this letter was written, we still have a long way to go and plenty of work ahead of us.

I firmly believe the devil is behind the war on morality and I hope that those who fall victim can be brought back to Christ and be saved- every last one of them. All of Gods children deserve the eternal blessings afforded to them if they allow Christ in their lives. At some point we will come to a point where we will know the causes and overcome them. I believe for the most part this will not happen until the millennium where everything will be sorted out and fixed and man will be given ample time to choose godliness. My heart goes out to all whom suffer. It really does.

[Jeanne]

Happiness is relative to the present only. Will your relationship last into eternity and be a tree springing forth fruit unto eternal life? This is the point where if our gospel is correct, your happiness is relegated to the present only and will bring no eternal joy.

And yet, why would God want someone to have a "present" that is so unhappy?  Fruit unto eternal life is also just relative.

[Jeanne]

Be real careful there.

 

Be real careful there.

yeah..be real careful there.  I agree.  We live in a world that isn't "normal" but like many other things in and out of the church, "normal" can be redefined. Actually, I found that whole post incredibly arrogant.

[rockpond]

Ok, I would hate to spend eternity with someone of the same gender as my spouse. I'm not gay. That would give me no incentive to be a worthy member of the church.

That should give you some insight into what gay church members face.

[rockpond]

I firmly believe the devil is behind the war on morality and I hope that those who fall victim can be brought back to Christ and be saved- every last one of them. All of Gods children deserve the eternal blessings afforded to them if they allow Christ in their lives. At some point we will come to a point where we will know the causes and overcome them. I believe for the most part this will not happen until the millennium where everything will be sorted out and fixed and man will be given ample time to choose godliness. My heart goes out to all whom suffer. It really does.

I believe that, unfortunately, much of that suffering is coming from the Church and well-meaning members.

[thesometimesaint]

yeah..be real careful there.  I agree.  We live in a world that isn't "normal" but like many other things in and out of the church, "normal" can be redefined. Actually, I found that whole post incredibly arrogant.

 

Sociologically speaking there is no such thing as "normal". There is only deviations from the mean(average).

[Rodeo]

I believe that, unfortunately, much of that suffering is coming from the Church and well-meaning members.

Its a hard position the members are in where we are taught to view all sorts of immorality as sins and avoided at all cost. Between a rock and a hard place is where we are at- on the one side of it we are taught to be loving and have compassion and on the other side we are cautioned to not embrace immoral behaviors. So, when we see members make immoral choices we are obliged to say something or at least show our disproval of it. Hollywood and political correctness is conditioning us to embrace immorality and look down upon those fellow conservative Christians who still espouse traditional family and moral values. At some point we really have to say- who really is suffering?

[toon]

Gay marriage is blasphemous. Satan has blurred the lines of marriage to where many think its okay for gays to have the same religious rights as the faithful. Satan has many lies and has many blurred lines. Most homosexual men do not want gay marriage with complete fidelity. Most male homosexuals are very promiscuous and do not want to be tied down to one mate. For many its all about the sex.

 

Lest you be accused of gay bashing.

[JLHPROF]

And yet, why would God want someone to have a "present" that is so unhappy?  Fruit unto eternal life is also just relative.

 

I don't know...why don't we ask Joseph when he was in Liberty, Carthage, or Richmond?

Why don't we ask Emma as she fled across the frozen river with her children?

Why don't we ask John Taylor while he was spending years in hiding away from family?

Why don't we ask Abraham and Sarah while they were longing for a child they couldn't have?

Why don't we ask Job as EVERYTHING good was taken from him?

Why don't was ask Abinadi as he was being burned?

Why don't we ask Stephen as he was being stoned to death?

Why don't we ask our Savior in Gethsemane or at Calvary?

Why don't we ask God why he weeps?

 

Following God does NOT guarantee feeling happiness all the time.  Quite often, the opposite if we're doing it right.

 

Happiness will be the eternal end of righteousness.  Happiness now can be caused by any number of righteous or unrighteous acts.  It's a myth that sinners aren't happy in this life.  But it's no speculation they will be unhappy in the next.

And while homosexual couples may be extremely happy (and even faithful) here, they are basically guaranteed eternal loneliness and regret in the next life.

 

If all we are concerned about is what makes us happy in the here and now we have totally missed the point.

[rockpond]

Its a hard position the members are in where we are taught to view all sorts of immorality as sins and avoided at all cost. Between a rock and a hard place is where we are at- on the one side of it we are taught to be loving and have compassion and on the other side we are cautioned to not embrace immoral behaviors. So, when we see members make immoral choices we are obliged to say something or at least show our disproval of it. Hollywood and political correctness is conditioning us to embrace immorality and look down upon those fellow conservative Christians who still espouse traditional family and moral values. At some point we really have to say- who really is suffering?

I don't really ever feel that I am placed in a "hard position" when taught to show love and compassion to gay people.

What do you mean when you say "who really is suffering?"

[USU78]

Lest you be accused of gay bashing.

 

Lest you be accused of sloganeering.

[USU78]

It certainly has a better chance than being married to a woman for eternity.  Who we are doesn't suddenly change when we die.  

 

Which is why there is a spirit world where earth stains can be cleaned and us prepared for the appropriate kingdom of glory.

 

If you don't want Celestial Glory, you won't have it forced upon you.

[USU78]

Sociologically speaking there is no such thing as "normal". There is only deviations from the mean(average).

 

More evidence of the stupidity of courts' reliance on Brandeis briefs.

[USU78]

I believe that, unfortunately, much of that suffering is coming from the Church and well-meaning members.

 

And I believe that, unfortunately, that such a statement is rife with knee-jerk antiMormon bigotry.

 

We are and always will be responsible for the consequences of our own acts, and for the commission of those acts.

[Rodeo]

I don't really ever feel that I am placed in a "hard position" when taught to show love and compassion to gay people.

What do you mean when you say "who really is suffering?"

The church and the members who support the prophets are suffering for standing up for Gods morals.

[rockpond]

The church and the members who support the prophets are suffering for standing up for Gods morals.

 

How are we suffering for standing up for God's morals?

[rockpond]

And I believe that, unfortunately, that such a statement is rife with knee-jerk antiMormon bigotry.

 

Good to know that I can be both an active, believing Mormon AND an anti-Mormon bigot.

 

 

We are and always will be responsible for the consequences of our own acts, and for the commission of those acts.

 

True.

 

And those who determine church policy and direct certain actions for the church are also responsible for the consequences.

[USU78]

Good to know that I can be both an active, believing Mormon AND an anti-Mormon bigot.

 

 

 

True.

 

And those who determine church policy and direct certain actions for the church are also responsible for the consequences.

 

 

The former:  As Krusty the Klown said, "I thought I was a self-hating Jew, but now I find out I'm just another anti-Semite."

 

The latter:  Which is why I don't criticize much what folks in such positions do, now that I'm old enough to appreciate the complexities and difficulties and "can't win with some people."  Happily, there are incredibly talented and caring people willing to take such things on on a volunteer basis at most levels.  That's something.

[rockpond]

The former:  As Krusty the Klown said, "I thought I was a self-hating Jew, but now I find out I'm just another anti-Semite."

 

The latter:  Which is why I don't criticize much what folks in such positions do, now that I'm old enough to appreciate the complexities and difficulties and "can't win with some people."  Happily, there are incredibly talented and caring people willing to take such things on on a volunteer basis at most levels.  That's something.

 

It IS something.  I agree.  It's why I raise my hand to sustain them.  It's also why I deeply appreciate it each year at ward conference when I am also on the receiving end of that gesture of faith & confidence.  But, it doesn't mean that we ought to sit idly by and wait to be commanded in all things.

[USU78]

It IS something.  I agree.  It's why I raise my hand to sustain them.  It's also why I deeply appreciate it each year at ward conference when I am also on the receiving end of that gesture of faith & confidence.  But, it doesn't mean that we ought to sit idly by and wait to be commanded in all things.

 

So . . . you won't wait on a specific calling, but rather will join me and others in what may be a last-ditch defense of children from predation by the ill-disposed?

 

Terrific news!

[rockpond]

So . . . you won't wait on a specific calling, but rather will join me and others in what may be a last-ditch defense of children from predation by the ill-disposed?

Terrific news!

Yep... It's what I've been doing right here on this thread. (Though, given the futility of doing so here, it isn't my only effort.) Edited September 22, 2014 by rockpond