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Critics Accusations Of Financial Improprieties

bjw

By bjw
in General Discussions

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Tacenda Grand Master

Tacenda

Posted
Posted (edited)

Tacenda said:

"Well there is a group or several that have started petitioning for transparency. I searched for them because I've run across them in the past. I think this group is behind it, the website called mormonreform.com, hopefully they don't have temple content."

Scott said:

"I think I remember an online petition like that a few years back. As I recall, it died on the vine because it got such pathetic lack of support. And there were a lot of joke signatures, if I remember correctly."

"Was this a petition of Church members? Who cares if a lot of outsiders start petitioning to see the Church's financials?" Scott, I believe they mostly were members or former members.

Tacenda said:

"Scott, why would Pres. Hinckley give the impression, during his interview on 60 Minutes I believe, that the transparency is there for the members, just not the public, which was clearly not true. Did he not understand the question?" Come to find out this wasn't 60 Minutes but an interview given in 2002 during the Winter Olympics.

Scott said:

"I need to see the precise quote or link in context before I'll comment on this."

(bold mine)

This interview below is mainly put up by anti's, but the video and transcript are available. I don't want to link anything anti.

REPORTER:

YES. ANOTHER CRITICS ABOUT FINANCES, I READ IN DIFFERENT MAGAZINES THE RUMOR THAT YOUR CHURCH IS VERY WEALTHY, AND I'D LIKE THE NUMBER OF 30 MILL…BILLION DOLLARS, US DOLLARS, WHAT DO YOU RESPOND?

HINCKLEY:

THAT'S SOMEBODY'S GUESS. THAT'S JUST A WILD GUESS. WELL, THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS, THIS, YES…IF YOU COUNT ALL OF OUR ASSETS, YES, WE ARE WELL-OFF. BUT THOSE ASSETS, YOU HAVE TO KNOW THIS, ARE NOT MONEY-PRODUCING. THOSE ASSETS ARE MONEY-CONSUMING. THOSE ASSETS, INCLUDING MEETING HOUSES, CHURCHES, THOUSANDS OF THEM ACROSS THE WORLD, THEY INCLUDE TEMPLES, THEY INCLUDE UNIVERSITIES, THEY INCLUDE WELFARE PROJECTS, THEY INCLUDE EDUCATIONAL FACILITIES, THEY INCLUDE ALL THE MISSIONARY WORK, THEY INCLUDE HUMANITARIAN WORK, THEY INCLUDE ALL THESE THINGS WHICH USE MONEY. WHICH DON'T PRODUCE MONEY. THE CHURCH IS…THE INCOME OF THE CHURCH COMES FROM THE CONSECRATIONS OF THE PEOPLE, WHO TITHE THEMSELVES, PAY THEIR TITHES, THE ANCIENT LAW OF THE TITHE IS THE CHURCH'S LAW OF THE MANSE. AND THAT'S WHERE THE MONEY COMES WHICH OPERATES THE CHURCH. IF YOU LOOK AT OUR BALANCE SHEET, THAT SHOWS ALL THE FACILITIES THAT WE HAVE, AND THE PROGRAMS WE CARRY, WE APPEAR VERY WEALTHY. BUT YOU MUST REALIZE THAT ALL OF THOSE PROGRAMS CONSUME MONEY, THEY DON'T PRODUCE IT. THAT THE MONEY WHICH WE USE COMES FROM THE CONSECRATIONS OF THE PEOPLE.

REPORTER:

IN MY COUNTRY, THE…WE SAY THE PEOPLE'S CHURCHES, THE PROTESTANTS, THE CATHOLICS, THEY PUBLISH ALL THEIR BUDGETS, TO ALL THE PUBLIC.

HINCKLEY:

YEAH. YEAH.

REPORTER:

WHY IS IT IMPOSSIBLE FOR YOUR CHURCH?

HINCKLEY:

WELL, WE SIMPLY THINK THAT THE…THAT INFORMATION BELONGS TO THOSE WHO MADE THE CONTRIBUTION, AND NOT TO THE WORLD. THAT'S THE ONLY THING. YES.

Edited by Tacenda
ERayR Grand Master

ERayR

Posted
Posted

When I cited the State of Rhode Island I was fully aware that it was a public entity.  Did you think I thought Rhode Island was a church or privately held company? 

The response was to your attempt to disconnect ethics and disclosure.

 

The commas? So, you made the sentence wordier.  I don't see the point.

 

Each are not inclusive of the other.  Rather they are separate.  They are in addition to not included.  

 

Use a comma to separate the elements in a series (three or more things), including the last two.

 

http://www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/commas.asp

ERayR Grand Master

ERayR

Posted
Posted

"They are in addition to not included."  This awkward sentence does not make any sense.

 

The elements of that series are separate.  One is not included in the other. i.e. disclosure is not included in ethics.

Gervin Mentor

Gervin

Posted
Posted

HINCKLEY:

WELL, WE SIMPLY THINK THAT THE…THAT INFORMATION BELONGS TO THOSE WHO MADE THE CONTRIBUTION, AND NOT TO THE WORLD. THAT'S THE ONLY THING. YES.

did anyone notice if his fingers were crossed?

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changed Veteran

changed

Posted
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Posted

3 Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard, very costly, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair: and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment.

 4 Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, which should betray him,

 5 Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor?

5
AndyDnom Collaborator

AndyDnom

Posted
Posted

there might be financial improprieties or not. no one on this board could possibly know one way or the other. it's sad really. i wish the church would disclose .

Gervin Mentor

Gervin

Posted
Posted

Gee, I wonder if that would count as an "insult" if I wrote it?

I guess it's an insult, and I'll retract it, if members who contribute are indeed allowed to see financial information that is kept from the rest of the world. 

ERayR Grand Master

ERayR

Posted
Posted

there might be financial improprieties or not. no one on this board could possibly know one way or the other. it's sad really. i wish the church would disclose .

 

If detailed financials were released there are very few on this board who, after reading them, would know if there were financial improprieties or not.

1
rockpond Grand Master

rockpond

Posted
Posted

If detailed financials were released there are very few on this board who, after reading them, would know if there were financial improprieties or not.

 

I don't think that the potential for financial improprieties are the only reason that members want disclosure and transparency.

ERayR Grand Master

ERayR

Posted
Posted

I don't think that the potential for financial improprieties are the only reason that members want disclosure and transparency.

 

If detailed financials were released there are very few on this board who could even read them.

 

I don't think there are very many members who want disclosure or even care.  Just my own informal, flawed survey.

3
rockpond Grand Master

rockpond

Posted
Posted

If detailed financials were released there are very few on this board who could even read them.

 

I don't think there are very many members who want disclosure or even care.  Just my own informal, flawed survey.

 

I don't think many members even think about it.

 

And I don't think that the disclosures need to be so detailed that the average college educated person couldn't understand them.

ERayR Grand Master

ERayR

Posted
Posted

I don't think many members even think about it.

 

And I don't think that the disclosures need to be so detailed that the average college educated person couldn't understand them.

 

Please give an example as to what you think they should look like.

 

To get any useful information there needs be some detail or else they are so general that they tell you nothing.

1
The Nehor Grand Master

The Nehor

Posted
Posted

I don't think many members even think about it.

 

And I don't think that the disclosures need to be so detailed that the average college educated person couldn't understand them.

So you want someone to write a summary of the financials?

cdowis Grand Master

cdowis

Posted
Posted

 

And I don't think that the disclosures need to be so detailed that the average college educated person couldn't understand them.

 

OK, let's give an example of such a disclosure for 2013

 

Received $15.3B 

Spent $12.7B

 

All expenditures were made according to established policy and protocol.

 

Are you happy now?

2
rockpond Grand Master

rockpond

Posted
Posted

Please give an example as to what you think they should look like.

 

To get any useful information there needs be some detail or else they are so general that they tell you nothing.

 

 

So you want someone to write a summary of the financials?

 

 

OK, let's give an example of such a disclosure for 2013

 

Received $15.3B 

Spent $12.7B

 

All expenditures were made according to established policy and protocol.

 

Are you happy now?

 

I think something along the lines of what they were publishing back in the 50's before they stopped would probably suffice.

ERayR Grand Master

ERayR

Posted
Posted

I think something along the lines of what they were publishing back in the 50's before they stopped would probably suffice.

 

And yet even then, if my memory is correct, there were complaints that was insufficient.

rockpond Grand Master

rockpond

Posted
Posted

And yet even then, if my memory is correct, there were complaints that was insufficient.

 

There will always be someone to complain about something.  I'm not suggesting that we disclose our finances because there are complainers nor because it will silence complainers (cause it won't).

ERayR Grand Master

ERayR

Posted
Posted (edited)

There will always be someone to complain about something.  I'm not suggesting that we disclose our finances because there are complainers nor because it will silence complainers (cause it won't).

Then why as most members don't care?  It is just a few members and a lot of critics and antis who are the complainers lobbying for this.  What useful purpose would it serve?

 

Help me it just doesn't make sense to me.

Edited by ERayR
rockpond Grand Master

rockpond

Posted
Posted (edited)

Then why as most members don't care?  It is just a few members and a lot of critics and antis who are the complainers lobbying for this.  What useful purpose would it serve?

 

Help me it just doesn't make sense to me.

 

Because the D&C calls for all things to be done by common consent.  And because we are not immune to corruption and unrighteous dominion.  None of us.

 

The useful purpose is that it would allow members to know how the consecrated funds are being used and allow them to make a knowledgeable consent.

 

What would the harm be in disclosing our financials as we did in the past?

Edited by rockpond
ERayR Grand Master

ERayR

Posted
Posted (edited)

Because the D&C calls for all things to be done by common consent.  And because we are not immune to corruption and unrighteous dominion.  None of us.

 

The useful purpose is that it would allow members to know how the consecrated funds are being used and allow them to make a knowledgeable consent.

 

What would the harm be in disclosing our financials as we did in the past?

 

Let me say a couple more things and then I will probably cease responding to your posts on this topic. 

 

Common consent - this the agreement we enter into when we raise our hands and agree to support that person in that calling.  It has nothing to do with unrighteous dominion.  If you don't trust them to handle money how can you trust then to sit in judgement in the eternities?  You are in a bishopric and should know there are ample safeguards against malfeasance besides a set of general financial reports would not reveal such an act on an individual basis.  The audits which I understand are carried on at every level is adequate for that.

 

How the funds are used - Just take your own ward budget times it by 25,000 add upkeep and maintenance for 15,000 to 20,000 buildings, ongoing construction at probably more than a million a day, a very large fleet of trucks for welfare distribution,  wages and benefits for church employees including for the welfare system,and the list goes on.

  • Constructing temples, chapels, and other buildings.
  • Providing operating funds for the Church.
  • Funding the missionary program (This does not include individual missionary expenses.)
  • Preparing materials used in Church classes and organizations.
  • Temple work, family history, and many other important Church functions.
  • Education.

    http://www.mormon.org/faq/purpose-of-tithing

 

  More on welfare funds.

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/humanitarian-aid-welfare-services-breakdown-donations-costs-resources

 

Harm in disclosure - There isn't any it just isn't necessary If you don't trust the church leaders then trust the audit system they have it will do more good than publishing financials.

Edited by ERayR
rockpond Grand Master

rockpond

Posted
Posted (edited)

Let me say a couple more things and then I will probably cease responding to your posts on this topic. 

 

Common consent - this the agreement we enter into when we raise our hands and agree to support that person in that calling.  It has nothing to do with unrighteous dominion.  If you don't trust them to handle money how can you trust then to sit in judgement in the eternities?  You are in a bishopric and should know there are ample safeguards against malfeasance besides a set of general financial reports would not reveal such an act on an individual basis.  The audits which I understand are carried on at every level is adequate for that.

 

How the funds are used - Just take your own ward budget times it by 25,000 add upkeep and maintenance for 15,000 to 20,000 buildings, ongoing construction at probably more than a million a day, a very large fleet of trucks for welfare distribution,  wages and benefits for church employees including for the welfare system,and the list goes on.

  • Constructing temples, chapels, and other buildings.
  • Providing operating funds for the Church.
  • Funding the missionary program (This does not include individual missionary expenses.)
  • Preparing materials used in Church classes and organizations.
  • Temple work, family history, and many other important Church functions.
  • Education.

    http://www.mormon.org/faq/purpose-of-tithing

 

  More on welfare funds.

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/humanitarian-aid-welfare-services-breakdown-donations-costs-resources

 

Harm in disclosure - There isn't any it just isn't necessary If you don't trust the church leaders then trust the audit system they have it will do more good than publishing financials.

 

Common consent is required in "all things" in the church.  That comes from the D&C, not me.  It doesn't just say that we consent to callings.  And we can't consent to the church's financial activities if we don't know what they are.

 

Audit systems control malfeasance.  I'm not concerned about that.

 

The general Church does far more than a ward.  It is not a matter of just multiplying a ward budget.

 

Since you agree that there is no harm in disclosure, let's return to the days when we published the financials as part of General Conference.

 

p.s.  The Church collects far more than just tithing.  And the funds collected can legally be used as the Church desires.

Edited by rockpond
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