johnny Posted January 7, 2005 Posted January 7, 2005 T-Shirt writes,No, He is not the same God, but He is of the same Godhead and is one with the Father as explained in John 17. He is one with the Father as explained in John 17. He is also God (John 1:1).The interesting thing is that this commandments indicates that there are other gods, 1Cor 8 explains that their is "that are called gods" but their is only one God.1 Corinthians 84 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)6But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. Why is it not possible for two Gods in hte same Godhead, one in purpose, to not both be above all the earth, they both are above all the earth. Because the Old and the New Testment both reveal that their is one God. I don't see why this is hard to understand. I know we come from different backgrounds, but to me, it makes more sense my way.What makes it hard to understand is why you ignore the many verses that say their is one God. Why is it so impossible for them to be seperate Gods, but one in Godhead, Unity and purpose? The Creed reveals that their is one Godhead. The Creed reveals that their is one eternal being meaning that the three are united in purpose. It is does not make sense to say that they are seperate Gods when the Old and New Testament reveal that their is one God. Why does this need to be such heresy? It certainly is much easier to understand. It is easier to understand but ignores scripture like Isa 44:8,24 which reveals that one God alone formed and created man and he was by himself. Mormon scriptures reveal that multiple Gods formed and created man.
johnny Posted January 7, 2005 Posted January 7, 2005 Alexander writes,First of all, to me it is the natural conclusion that Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ are different persons based solely on Jesus
johnny Posted January 7, 2005 Posted January 7, 2005 T-Shirt writes,Incidently, the greek for "the Highest" is "the Supreme God". Why do you think they used the word Supreme? Could it be because there are other Gods under Him that do His will and follow His direction? Our God is God of Gods (Deut 10:17) but their is only one God and that what is called gods (1Cor 8:4-6).Deuteronomy 1017 For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:
Dan_ Posted January 7, 2005 Posted January 7, 2005 Elohim is God the Father. Just another name like Jehovah. And he is our God, the one through which Jesus and the Holy Spirit make up the Godhead. Through him, not of him, just to clarify. And that makes three Gods the still magic number.God is one eternal being. God is is above all, and through all, and in you all (Eph 4:6).So you say God's spirit is in us all. You say God's spirt was sent into Jesus. You say Jesus is God. By the same logic, I am God. But that wouldnt make sense, so lets just interpret it differently; it's obviously meant that way. You see? Nothing you can argue will make your religion or our religion wrong; its all based on interpretation. Thats why we debate, and thats why we are both still religions. I think its meant that way so there is something we have to pray about and take faith in. Otherwise, it would be simple and easy. And by argueing any farther I'll be a hypocrite. So.... Maybe I should just watch. And if I post again, you get to call me one
Servant Posted January 7, 2005 Posted January 7, 2005 but you believe He is NOT the same God as the Father, right? No, He is not the same God, but He is of the same Godhead and is one with the Father as explained in John 17. The Father has given all power to the Son (See John 3:35) and the Son only does the will of the Father even though their wills may not always be the same (see Luke 22:42)So tell me how does three gods harmonize with the scriptures I have said?I will explainHow does three seperate gods with their own minds who is worshipped harmonize with the commands?
johnny Posted January 7, 2005 Posted January 7, 2005 Dan_ writes,Elohim is God the Father. Just another name like Jehovah. So are you saying that Elohim is God and Jehovah is God?Which one is your God?So you say God's spirit is in us all. You say God's spirt was sent into Jesus. You say Jesus is God. By the same logic, I am God. But that wouldnt make sense, so lets just interpret it differently; it's obviously meant that way. That makes sense with scripture ... that which is born again "is spirit".John 3That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. You see? Nothing you can argue will make your religion or our religion wrong; Thats why we debate, and thats why we are both still religions. I think its meant that way so there is something we have to pray about and take faith in. Otherwise, it would be simple and easy.Do you believe that their is sound doctrine and sound faith?What does sound doctrine and sound faith mean?Titus 19 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
Servant Posted January 7, 2005 Posted January 7, 2005 Just to let you know I am going to be working in my previous post...so if you guys want to see the rest I said then go to the post...btw how long do we have until the time limit quits on editing?
johnny Posted January 7, 2005 Posted January 7, 2005 Hi Servant,I do my editing in a mailer like Outlook Express (for example I just open a message window) then I cut and paste it into the FAIR editor.johnny
T-Shirt Posted January 7, 2005 Posted January 7, 2005 He is one with the Father as explained in John 17. He is also God (John 1:1). I agree completely. But John 17 says nothing about them being one in essence or being, in fact it specifically speaks of their oneness being in purpose. All other scriptures also can be summed up by their oneness in purpose. John 1:1 I agree with as well. The Word (Christ) is God and was with God (The Father). What is so hard about that?1Cor 8 explains that their is "that are called gods" but their is only one God.1 Corinthians 84 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)6But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.I particularly like these verses as well, it explains LDS doctrine very well. There are gods many and lords many, But to us (LDS) there is but one God the Father...and one Lord Jesus Christ.Because the Old and the New Testment both reveal that their is one God. I agree, I have already explained how that fits very nicely with LDS doctrine.What makes it hard to understand is why you ignore the many verses that say their is one God. I haven't ignored them, I already explained it. Do I need to do it again?The Creed reveals that their is one Godhead. The Creed reveals that their is one eternal being meaning that the three are united in purpose. It is does not make sense to say that they are seperate Gods when the Old and New Testament reveal that their is one God.It makes perfect sense. Shoot, the Book of Mormon says there is only one God as well. There is only one God the Father (as Paul says) this does not preclude Christ from also being a God, subordinate to the Father, who represents the Father and the Godhead in everything He does. This is not that hard.It is easier to understand but ignores scripture like Isa 44:8,24 which reveals that one God alone formed and created man and he was by himself. Mormon scriptures reveal that multiple Gods formed and created man.At least you admit it is easier to understand A large portion of Isaiah 44 speaks of wickedness of idolatry. Jehovah is warning Israel to worship the true God, not idols. There is another explanation for this that I don;t have time for now, maybe later. But in the sense that Jehovah is the God of the Old Testament, the God of Israel and He represents the Father, there is no problem with Him saying there is only One God, especiall when addressing a people prone to idolatry. In verse 24, we have no problem with, we believe that Jehovah (Christ) created the earth, John 1 says the same thing. It was God the Father's creation but done by the Son. To seperate beings, one God the Father.T-Shirt
T-Shirt Posted January 7, 2005 Posted January 7, 2005 I have to go, I have already spent way too much time on here today, this is going to make tomorrow a real mess. It has been fun, I have to try not to be here tomorrow, I have too much to do. I will be back, but it may not be until Monday. If I am here tomorrow it will probably only be for a short while during lunch. The only problem, once I get started, I can't stop. Keep up the conversation and God bless.T-Shirt
Servant Posted January 7, 2005 Posted January 7, 2005 I am done revising....next time I am going to do what Johnny does when he edits...that is a good idea.
johnny Posted January 7, 2005 Posted January 7, 2005 T-Shirt writes,I agree completely. But John 17 says nothing about them being one in essence or being, in fact it specifically speaks of their oneness being in purpose. All other scriptures also can be summed up by their oneness in purpose. John 1:1 I agree with as well. The Word (Christ) is God and was with God (The Father). What is so hard about that?I would agree that John 17 does not say nothing about being one in being. On the other hand John 1:1 does reveal that that the Word is one in being with the Father. How can the Word both be with God and be God? I particularly like these verses as well, it explains LDS doctrine very well. There are gods many and lords many, But to us (LDS) there is but one God the Father...and one Lord Jesus Christ. Do you consider Jesus Christ as part of the "gods many" since their is only one God?I haven't ignored them, I already explained it. Do I need to do it again?Could you explain how if Elohim is God and Jehovah is God how their can be one God?There is only one God the Father (as Paul says) this does not preclude Christ from also being a God, subordinate to the Father, Does this mean that their are two Gods?There is another explanation for this that I don;t have time for now, maybe later. Sounds good ... for me Isa 44 is clear that God was alone and by himself when he created and Mormon scripture appears to describe a very different picture with multiple Gods.
Servant Posted January 7, 2005 Posted January 7, 2005 I have to go, I have already spent way too much time on here today, this is going to make tomorrow a real mess. It has been fun, I have to try not to be here tomorrow, I have too much to do. I will be back, but it may not be until Monday. If I am here tomorrow it will probably only be for a short while during lunch. The only problem, once I get started, I can't stop. Keep up the conversation and God bless.T-Shirt ok....sleep well and hurry back....see you when you return....have a happy snooze...
King Pagan Posted January 7, 2005 Posted January 7, 2005 my question has not been answered.....Tell me...how much power does God have? I think I have an even better question......How much presence does God have?
Herb Posted January 7, 2005 Posted January 7, 2005 my question has not been answered.....Tell me...how much power does God have? I think I have an even better question......How much presence does God have? God cannot be omnipresent. If He were, then He couldn't move as there would be no where to move to; He would already be there. There would be no reason to move either, else it would be that one portion of God was more important to a task than another, making Him an unequal being. If omnipresent, He could not have withdrew from Christ on the cross(which also means Christ is not omnipresent for as impossible for it one omnipresent being not to be somewhere it would doubly be so for 2 omnipresent beings not to be in the same location). If omnipresent then why would Christ pray "Our Father, who art in Heaven," when it would have been as accurate to say "Our Father, who art next to us"?Anyone want to bet that the arguement comes up that it was the "spirit of God" which moved across the earth in Genesis? If so, then that spirit must not be omnipresent for the same reason God isn't, an omnipresent being cannot move to where it already is.
Paul Osborne Posted January 7, 2005 Posted January 7, 2005 HI again all!I'm too tired to argue about the Trinity and we go around and around. At least we can agree that Jesus is our Savior. So you Trinity people will have to wait for God to set us Godhead people straight later on. At least we love God and want to do right - as we see it, of course.One God, three Gods? All will be made known in the hereafter, but for now we walk by faith and put our belief in scripture as we understand it. But until you see and hear Christ with your own eyes you are simply walking by faith and hoping that it's all true. Hey, there is only ONE Jesus Christ and I trust him.Paul O
Tanyan Posted January 7, 2005 Posted January 7, 2005 Paul, Correctamundo Brother !. JN 14:28, 20:17 Acts2:32 Rom 15:6 1 Cor 11:3, 15:23-28 2 Cor1:3, 11:31 Eph 1:3 Heb 1:1-9 [8-9] 1 Peter 1:3 Rev 1:6, 3:2,12, see NIV. Can you tell me how these harmonize with three seperate beings with seperate minds....because all I see it doing is harmonizing with the Trinity..I have put numberious of scripture down...why cant it be harmonized with three seperate beings with different minds?I get the concept....I get the idea that you would see them different beings and all...but it doesnt harmonize with other scripture...it has to harmonize or it will NOT be bibilcal. Servant, you are kidding right ?, These scriptures speak of the Authority of the Father as The GOD OF THE LORD OF LIFE, JESUS CHRIST Positionaly and Functionaly. PLain and simple, GOD THE FATHER is JESUS CHRIST GOD.
1dc Posted January 7, 2005 Posted January 7, 2005 I would agree that John 17 does not say nothing about being one in being. On the other hand John 1:1 does reveal that that the Word is one in being with the Father. How can the Word both be with God and be God? To understand you must use the complete LDS perspective, just as you would have others accept your perspective to understand the Nicean explanation . .In the Beginning refers to the pre-existance, Jesus was the first spiritually born (for this world) and He was given the authority of the Father.Do you consider Jesus Christ as part of the "gods many" since their is only one God?Both LDS and Niceans consider Jesus fully God . . LDS view Jesus as obediant to the Father with a specific role in the Godhood. Jesus instructs us to pray to the Father through Christ as Mediator. Niceans view Jesus as fully God but still part of one God by virture of His divine nature or being (Godhood). [i think a better explanation for the Niceans is that each person of God has the complete divine power and that working together three persons are one God.] In any case, I believe we both accept the biblically defined roles of the different persons.Could you explain how if Elohim is God and Jehovah is God how their can be one God?As above, the answer is in their roles . . together they are one. These roles were explained by Jesus. He tells us who God is. The divine power is from the Father regardless of which authorized person(s) carries it.Actually that same question is what LDS people ask of Niceans. How can 3 persons each fully God be one God. They say it isn't understanable, but that they understand it by spirit, but then it would seem there should be words to explain it if the spirit has taught it. [The egg analogy diminishes the Nicean Creed, or proves it is false . . each part of the egg does not have the power of the full egg.]Does this mean that their are two Gods?Depends on how you define God. Both LDS and Niceans say each person is fully divine. But the LDS definition is clear. There is a divine order to the relationship between the persons because they are perfect.Sounds good ... for me Isa 44 is clear that God was alone and by himself when he created and Mormon scripture appears to describe a very different picture with multiple Gods.Perhaps it is because you are viewing the scripture literally from a Nicean perspective. As I read Isa 44, it is Christ saying he is the one Savior (by authority of the Father) for His chosen people and there is none other. That works perfectly from the LDS view.
Servant Posted January 7, 2005 Posted January 7, 2005 my question has not been answered.....Tell me...how much power does God have? I think I have an even better question......How much presence does God have? power is what I meant...how much power?
Servant Posted January 7, 2005 Posted January 7, 2005 Paul, Correctamundo Brother !. JN 14:28, 20:17 Acts2:32 Rom 15:6 1 Cor 11:3, 15:23-28 2 Cor1:3, 11:31 Eph 1:3 Heb 1:1-9 [8-9] 1 Peter 1:3 Rev 1:6, 3:2,12, see NIV. Can you tell me how these harmonize with three seperate beings with seperate minds....because all I see it doing is harmonizing with the Trinity..I have put numberious of scripture down...why cant it be harmonized with three seperate beings with different minds?I get the concept....I get the idea that you would see them different beings and all...but it doesnt harmonize with other scripture...it has to harmonize or it will NOT be bibilcal. Servant, you are kidding right ?, These scriptures speak of the Authority of the Father as The GOD OF THE LORD OF LIFE, JESUS CHRIST Positionaly and Functionaly. PLain and simple, GOD THE FATHER is JESUS CHRIST GOD. no I am not kidding.....here is why. Your scriptures that you gave out fits your belief, but it doesnt harmonize with the scriptures I put forth. The only way it does if Jesus is God.Take a look at the scriptures you put out and then go take a look at mine.
Servant Posted January 7, 2005 Posted January 7, 2005 my question has not been answered.....Tell me...how much power does God have? I think I have an even better question......How much presence does God have? God cannot be omnipresent. If He were, then He couldn't move as there would be no where to move to; He would already be there. There would be no reason to move either, else it would be that one portion of God was more important to a task than another, making Him an unequal being. If omnipresent, He could not have withdrew from Christ on the cross(which also means Christ is not omnipresent for as impossible for it one omnipresent being not to be somewhere it would doubly be so for 2 omnipresent beings not to be in the same location). If omnipresent then why would Christ pray "Our Father, who art in Heaven," when it would have been as accurate to say "Our Father, who art next to us"?Anyone want to bet that the arguement comes up that it was the "spirit of God" which moved across the earth in Genesis? If so, then that spirit must not be omnipresent for the same reason God isn't, an omnipresent being cannot move to where it already is. Here is the problem...."God cannot be omnipresent"The deffinition of omnipresent:Present everywhere simultaneouslySo you dont think He can be every where at once? Then how can He hear all our prayers all at once?Even Jesus said "where ever there is three or more praying He will be present" (something like that)...Do you know how many gather in worship praying? a week? a Day...? billions...The problem is you think God is limited. That he only has so much power if any.God above alll? How can God be above all if He is limited?Do you believe that God made this world out of nothing? If He is limited That means another could be above Him....I totally understand now why the big differences....Ok....maybe we can make a thread on God's power?
johnny Posted January 7, 2005 Posted January 7, 2005 Hreb writes,God cannot be omnipresent. If He were, then He couldn't move as there would be no where to move to; He would already be there.Eph 4:6 says "through all"Ephesians 46 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.Hreb writes,If omnipresent then why would Christ pray "Our Father, who art in Heaven," when it would have been as accurate to say "Our Father, who art next to us"?Because he can be "above all" and "in you all" (Eph 4:6).Tanyan writes,PLain and simple, GOD THE FATHER is JESUS CHRIST GOD. Who is your God ... is Elohim or is it Jehovah?Tanyan writes, #1 Its a Mystery, Sound familiar ? Why do you say it is a mystery ... when other Mormons says it is easy to understand?Tanyan writes,Clover is one Entity, with three Modalistic/Sabellian Masks/Leaves, But the clover is corporeal, But according to Greek, Neo Platonic, Gnostic, Hellenistic Language 2 leaves must be pure non/corporeal, not any matter with any shape =Father/Holy Ghost. One Leaf is corporeal=Jesus Christ, also non gendered =Hermaphrodite/Androgynous for all three leaves. So the Clover has problems as a example, sorry it just does not work. Thanks for the Read In my area each clover leaf that makes up a clover is distinct, just like each person of the Godhead is distinct. You are correct the Father and the Holy Ghost are spirit and are neither neither man nor woman. You are correct the Son has the form of a man.1dc writes,In the Beginning refers to the pre-existance, Jesus was the first spiritually born (for this world) and He was given the authority of the Father.In the beginning Jesus was "the Word" ... "the Word" was not born of Heavenly parents but was eternally begotten.1dc writes,How can 3 persons each fully God be one God. Because this is what Col 2:9 reveals:Colossians 29 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.1dc writes,each part of the egg does not have the power of the full egg. Each part of the egg is "fully egg", in other words the shell in not a mixture of shell and rubber, in other words the yoke is not a mixture of yoke and gasoline.1dc writes,Depends on how you define God. Both LDS and Niceans say each person is fully divine. But the LDS definition is clear. There is a divine order to the relationship between the persons because they are perfect.One defination is who do you worship ... do you worship two Gods ... do you worship both Elohim and Jehovah?How many Lord's do you have?Jesus says our God is one Lord and that God (Jehovah) spoke to Moses. Mark 12:32 says that their one God. Mark 12:36 reveals two distinct persons. Mark 1226 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.1dc writes,Perhaps it is because you are viewing the scripture literally from a Nicean perspective. As I read Isa 44, it is Christ saying he is the one Savior (by authority of the Father) for His chosen people and there is none other. That works perfectly from the LDS view. Perhaps you missed verses 8 and 24. Verses 8 clearly reveals that their was no other God beside God when he created. Verses 24 clearly reveals that the LORD was alone and by himself. From a LDS view and and from LDS scripture their were multiple Gods. How do you explain the difference?Isaiah 448 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
Paul Osborne Posted January 7, 2005 Posted January 7, 2005 Isaiah 448 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself; The King of England 448 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a king in England beside me? yea, there is no king; I know not any.24 Thus saith the king of England, thy ruler, and he that ruled thee since the womb, I am the lord that ruleth all England; that stretcheth forth the boundary alone; that spreadeth abroad my kingship over the earth by myself;25 You shall have no other kings before me, and ignore the king of France. I am the king and beside me there is no other king.Paul O
johnny Posted January 7, 2005 Posted January 7, 2005 Paul Osborne writes, The King of England 44Mormonism reveals that the King was not alone during creation ... the Bible says the King was alone.
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