Servant Posted January 7, 2005 Share Posted January 7, 2005 You do not need to be present to influence.ok yeah, but is it impossible? Link to comment
johnny Posted January 7, 2005 Share Posted January 7, 2005 Alexander writes,God's power does not have to be omnipresent. It can be wherever it needs to be but that's not to say it is everywhere always. I would say it is everywhere always ... Alexander writes,Sorry, but the bait-and-switch doesn't work. Nothing changes the fact that when you compare the Bible with the definition of omnipresence you end up with a non-omnipresent God as a conclusion, not even your bait-and-switch. You said you wanted to use the Bible ... I used Heb 1:3Herb writes,All-powerful still does not equate with omnipresent.I would differ ... You canot be all-powerful if you are not powerful everywhere.Herb writes,Influence and power are not synonomous with being omnipresent. You do not need to be present to influence.If you like we can just talk about power since power is associated with being Almighty.I need to be gone for a few hours, so I will answer you later this afternoon. Link to comment
Alexander Posted January 7, 2005 Share Posted January 7, 2005 Johnny writes,I would say it is everywhere always ... Based on what? Wishful thinking?Johnny writes,You said you wanted to use the Bible ... I used Heb 1:3Not only did I say I wanted to use the Bible, but I did, effectively. I don't see what you are trying to express with the above verse.God is not omnipresent according to the Bible, correct? Link to comment
rxrod Posted January 7, 2005 Share Posted January 7, 2005 [size=4Someone who does not believe in the Trinity, please explain: 1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word (aka Jesus Christ--see John 1), and the Holy Ghost (Spirit): and these three are one.Rom. 10:17 Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.1 John 4For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. 5Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? 6This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. 9If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. 10He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. 11And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 13These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. Link to comment
Alexander Posted January 7, 2005 Share Posted January 7, 2005 [size=4Someone who does not believe in the Trinity, please explain: 1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word (aka Jesus Christ--see John 1), and the Holy Ghost (Spirit): and these three are one. The Bible itself defines the usage of the word one in John 17:11,21."That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me"A simple equation of the relationship between God and Jesus to the relationship between the Apostles. Link to comment
johnny Posted January 7, 2005 Share Posted January 7, 2005 Alexander writes,God is not omnipresent according to the Bible, correct? How would you interpret the following passages:Jeremiah 2324 Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD.Ephesians 123 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all. Link to comment
johnny Posted January 7, 2005 Share Posted January 7, 2005 Alexander writes,First verse sounds like omniscience. So are you saying that the Bible reveals that God is omnipresent according to the BibleSecond, it's funny you didn't quote the verse prior to it as an omnipresent being cannot put anything under his feet.I am not following what your point is ... could you explain the words "him that filleth all in all" But didn't you, a few posts ago, argue that omnipresence is really referring to his power and not his being? I said "also mean" ... at least develop a position that you won't need to change as you go through a discussion. Did you change earlier ... earlier you said that "So God isn't omnipresent but his power is? Sure I can accept that. " Link to comment
Alexander Posted January 7, 2005 Share Posted January 7, 2005 johnny writes,So are you saying that the Bible reveals that God is omnipresent according to the Bible.Omniscience, science, omni-science, to be all knowing.johnny writes,I am not following what your point is ... could you explain the words "him that filleth all in all"You're not sure what my point is? How does an omnipresent being put anything under his feet? (Hint: He can't) You did miss a part in what you just quoted above, you can quote more of it: "the fullness of him that filleth all in all" Or as I take it to mean, "all of what God is fills all". His power, spirit, knowledge, love, etc.johnny writes,I said "also mean" ...Ahh, than your past post didn't attempt to address my points at all apparently.johnny writes,Did you change earlier ... earlier you said that "So God isn't omnipresent but his power is? Sure I can accept that. "That is regarding the power of God, I have maintained a constant position on God himself. The change was due to a mistake in my quick, off the cuff logic.Anyway, here are some more verses that prove that God is not omnipresent, not like you will address them anyway, but just of kicks.II Kings 5:15 And he returned to the man of God, he and all his company, and came, and stood before him: and he said, Behold, now I know that there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel: now therefore, I pray thee, take a blessing of thy servant.II Chro. 15:3, Now for a long season in Israel hath been without the true God, and without a teaching priest, and without law.II Cor. 4:4. In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine upon them.James 3:15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.Acts 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: Link to comment
Servant Posted January 7, 2005 Share Posted January 7, 2005 That is regarding the power of God, I have maintained a constant position on God himself.God's power isnt seperate from God. God IS power. Power is what makes God, God.you are a nice person Alexander. Nice is what makes you...you. if there was no niceness then you wouldnt be you in who you are.alexander, you are a wonderful person. if you were not wonderful than you wouldnt be you...do you get it? Link to comment
Alexander Posted January 7, 2005 Share Posted January 7, 2005 That is regarding the power of God, I have maintained a constant position on God himself.God's power isnt seperate from God. God IS power. Power is what makes God, God.you are a nice person Alexander. Nice is what makes you...you. if there was no niceness then you wouldnt be you in who you are.alexander, you are a wonderful person. if you were not wonderful than you wouldnt be you...do you get it? If I were infinitely nice/wonderful (which is definitely not the case) my physical self would not occupy an infinite amount of space. Likewise, God does not occupy an infinite amount of space. Link to comment
Servant Posted January 7, 2005 Share Posted January 7, 2005 That is regarding the power of God, I have maintained a constant position on God himself.God's power isnt seperate from God. God IS power. Power is what makes God, God.you are a nice person Alexander. Nice is what makes you...you. if there was no niceness then you wouldnt be you in who you are.alexander, you are a wonderful person. if you were not wonderful than you wouldnt be you...do you get it? If I were infinitely nice/wonderful (which is definitely not the case) my physical self would not occupy an infinite amount of space. Likewise, God does not occupy an infinite amount of space. actually I dont know who you are you can be nice, mean, wonderful all at the same time....who ever you are...makes YOU you....Just like God IS power....Power that is omnipresent (as you said)...God IS power...Power IS God. And since his power is omnipresent he could occupy any space He likes...unlike us.....God HAS power because God IS Power.I dont understand how you can think power is a seperate thing FROM God....for it is God who has ALL power.....If Power was seperate from God as another thing...then someone else can take that power.... Link to comment
johnny Posted January 7, 2005 Share Posted January 7, 2005 Alexander writes,Omniscience, science, omni-science, to be all knowing. Jer 23:24 says "I fill heaven and earth" ... how do you associate that with knowing?How does an omnipresent being put anything under his feet? Which translates to putting under his authority. "the fullness of him that filleth all in all" Or as I take it to mean, "all of what God is fills all". His power, spirit, knowledge, love, etc. You say "His power" ... that was my point earlier. "His power" all in all. Ahh, than your past post didn't attempt to address my points at all apparently. Your point, correct me if I am wrong" was that "omnipresent means to be everywhere at the same time, no exceptions" and I used Heb 1:3 to show that "all things" are upheld by the word of "his power". If it is "all things" then this means everywhere at the same time, no exceptions. I went on and addressed the verses you presented.II Kings 5:15 And he returned to the man of God, he and all his company, and came, and stood before him: and he said, Behold, now I know that there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel: now therefore, I pray thee, take a blessing of thy servant.You do understand the Lord is not saying "I know that there is no God in all the earth" ... it is a man saying this. God still fills heaven and earth.II Chro. 15:3, Now for a long season in Israel hath been without the true God, and without a teaching priest, and without law."without the true God" means Israel was not abiding with the true God. God still fills heaven and earth.James 3:15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish. This is talking about "this wisdom". God still fills heaven and earth.Acts 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:Again this is talking about abiding with the Lord. God still fills heaven and earth. Link to comment
Alexander Posted January 7, 2005 Share Posted January 7, 2005 Just like God IS power....Power that is omnipresent (as you said)...God IS power...Power IS God. And since his power is omnipresent he could occupy any space He likes...unlike us.....God HAS power because God IS Power.I dont understand how you can think power is a seperate thing FROM God....for it is God who has ALL power.....If Power was seperate from God as another thing...then someone else can take that power.... Actually I corrected myself on my "power is omnipresent" as I briefly equated omnipresentism with "can be everywhere", which is incorrect. There is no need for power to be everywhere at once.I'm not saying God's power is any more separate from God than my power is separate from me. The fact remains, that irregardless of how big my power is, I'm, physically, the same size. Link to comment
johnny Posted January 7, 2005 Share Posted January 7, 2005 Alexander writes,I'm not saying God's power is any more separate from God than my power is separate from me. The fact remains, that irregardless of how big my power is, I'm, physically, the same size. Doesn't the Mormon Church teach that God's influence "can be everywhere at the same time?Doesn't the Mormon Church associate "influence" with "power"?http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,11-1-13-12,00.htmlThe Holy Ghost is a member of the Godhead (see 1 John 5:7; D&C 20:28). He is a spirit that has the form and likeness of a man (see D&C 130:22). He can be in only one place at a time, but his influence can be everywhere at the same time.It is by the power of the Holy Ghost that we are led to understand and live the gospel of Jesus Christ. Link to comment
Servant Posted January 7, 2005 Share Posted January 7, 2005 Just like God IS power....Power that is omnipresent (as you said)...God IS power...Power IS God. And since his power is omnipresent he could occupy any space He likes...unlike us.....God HAS power because God IS Power.I dont understand how you can think power is a seperate thing FROM God....for it is God who has ALL power.....If Power was seperate from God as another thing...then someone else can take that power.... Actually I corrected myself on my "power is omnipresent" as I briefly equated omnipresentism with "can be everywhere", which is incorrect. There is no need for power to be everywhere at once.I'm not saying God's power is any more separate from God than my power is separate from me. The fact remains, that irregardless of how big my power is, I'm, physically, the same size. There is no need for power to be everywhere at once.Say what? I'm not saying God's power is any more separate from God than my power is separate from me. The fact remains, that irregardless of how big my power is, I'm, physically, the same size.But you have no powers.....you are not God. God is ALL power. Link to comment
Alexander Posted January 7, 2005 Share Posted January 7, 2005 Johnny writes,Alexander writes,Omniscience, science, omni-science, to be all knowing. Jer 23:24 says "I fill heaven and earth" ... how do you associate that with knowing?First part of the verse.Johnny writes,How does an omnipresent being put anything under his feet? Which translates to putting under his authority.So it's a metaphor?Johnny writes, "the fullness of him that filleth all in all" Or as I take it to mean, "all of what God is fills all". His power, spirit, knowledge, love, etc.You say "His power" ... that was my point earlier. "His power" all in all.I'm not talking about, nor do I care about, his power. You can say that God is constantly throwing his power everywhere or God is throwing his power where it's needed, it doesn Link to comment
Alexander Posted January 7, 2005 Share Posted January 7, 2005 The Holy Ghost is a member of the Godhead (see 1 John 5:7; D&C 20:28). He is a spirit that has the form and likeness of a man (see D&C 130:22). He can be in only one place at a time, but his influence can be everywhere at the same time.It is by the power of the Holy Ghost that we are led to understand and live the gospel of Jesus Christ. Keyword here is, of course, influence. Link to comment
Alexander Posted January 7, 2005 Share Posted January 7, 2005 But you have no powers.....you are not God. God is ALL power. Assuming I have power. Irregardless of it's size, I remain the same size. Link to comment
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