T-Shirt Posted January 7, 2005 Share Posted January 7, 2005 If you don’t understand the trinity than say so, nobody will really care if you don't understand it (least of all me). Just don't keep saying it's simple and easy to understand. Precisesly my point. Let me reiterate:I understand the wording of the doctrine.I understand how you think it is biblical.I can see how and why you think it is biblical.I understand what the doctrine is trying to say.I respect your belief in the doctrine.However,The doctrine does not make any logical sense at all. It is confusing and contradictory. It raises more questions than it answers. I don;t think anybody really understands it in the sense that they can make logical sense of it. The words are simple, the phrase "There is one God" is simple, but the concept of the whole doctrine is not simple, it is confusing and impossible to explain (at least from my perspective. No one has been able to do it yet). It is okay if you guys admit you can't make any logical sense of it either, I will not lose any respect for you, I will not think your faith is week, in fact I think I would respect you even more than I already do. If it was as simple as you say, someone would have provided the simple explanation already.I would still like to see a logical analogy. For example:The LDS perspective of God.The Father is GodThe Son is GodThe Holy Ghost is GodEach is seperate and distinct from the other. The Father is the head and the Son and the Holy Ghost are under His direction. The Son represents the Father, the Holy Ghost testifies of the Father and the Son. They all form one Godhead. One could logically say there are three Gods, but in reality, there is only one God the Father who directs all things and only one Godhead. The Son, while dealing with us on earth represents the Father and through the atonement, baptism and covenant we become the sons and daughters of the Son.The analogy:In the LDS Church:The prophet is president, apostle, seer and revelator.His first counselor is president, apostle, seer and revelator.His second counselor is president, apostle, seer and revelator.Each is seperate and distinct from the other. The Prophet is the head and the counselors are under his direction. The counselors represent the prophet and testifiy of his prophetic calling. They all form one presidency. One could logically say there are three presidents, but in reality, there is only one president with all authority and only one presidency. The counselors, while dealing with the members, represent the prophet.Now, do you see how this analogy makes compete sense and is logical? I am not asking you to believe it, but to recognize how it makes sense and is very simple and understandable.The LDS perspective of God can easily fit into all of the scriptures you cite from the bible. I recognize that you feel yours does as well and I understand the logic behind it, but I personally feel there is too much that doesn't fit the trinity, and most importantly, the doctrine itself is just not comprehensible. You may like that, I don't. I can agree that we are not able to understand all things of God, but understanding the nature of God, to me, should not be one of them.T-Shirt Link to comment
johnny Posted January 7, 2005 Share Posted January 7, 2005 Alexander writes,The trinity could very well be true, it doesn't make any sense, but it could be true. What part doesn't make sense? Link to comment
Servant Posted January 7, 2005 Share Posted January 7, 2005 oh oh...you missed what I said...yeah I know the Mormons believe that Jesus is a god....but you believe He is NOT the same God as the Father, right?In the old testment and the verses I gave out....does it harmonize with only ONE God is worshipped? Sure it does. The documentation is all over the place.You do understand that my beliefs have nothing to do with the trinity right? I don't mind if we change topic because the trinity topic was going nowhere to begin with, I just want to make sure you are aware of that fact. As long as Jack doesn't mind if you hijack his thread of course. are you backing out then?This has everything to do with the Trinity...we can discuss what it is and what it is not.So tell me how does three gods harmonize with the scriptures I have said?How does three seperate gods with their own minds who is worshipped harmonize with the commands? "I am God and there is no other God before me"?How does it harmonize with this:Psalm 97:9 - the Lord God is above all - John 3:31 - Jesus is above all. How does it harmonize with this:Matt. 9:2; Mark 2:5; Luke 5:20; 7:48 - Jesus forgives sins. Only God can forgive sins. I will tell you why it harmonize with the Trinity...it harmonizes with eachother because the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit is God...How can these verse harmonize with three seperate gods with seperate minds? Link to comment
Alexander Posted January 7, 2005 Share Posted January 7, 2005 are you backing out then? Oh yes, I'm backing out.The whole thing about wanting to stay on topic was all smoke and mirrors and all the rumors about topics getting bothersome when everyone wants their own little issue to be brought up are all false.*backs out*It is what you wanted right?I'll have more time to discuss stuff tomorrow or later on tonight. Link to comment
Servant Posted January 7, 2005 Share Posted January 7, 2005 well Johnny made it clearer...editing to say, and mom4life also.I brought up verses and showed it harmonizes with the Trinity but I am not understanding how it could harmonize the other way around...three gods with three different minds... Link to comment
Servant Posted January 7, 2005 Share Posted January 7, 2005 are you backing out then? Oh yes, I'm backing out.The whole thing about wanting to stay on topic was all smoke and mirrors and all the rumors about topics getting bothersome when everyone wants their own little issue to be brought up are all false.*backs out*It is what you wanted right?I'll have more time to discuss stuff tomorrow or later on tonight. I never said that...I only said are you backing out because that is what I thought you were saying....I rather you stay...if I had it my way. Link to comment
johnny Posted January 7, 2005 Share Posted January 7, 2005 T-Shirt writes,The doctrine does not make any logical sense at all. It is confusing and contradictory.Does the doctrine of the Trinity fit scripture?Does the doctrine of the Trinity contradict scripture?They all form one Godhead. One could logically say there are three Gods, Logically you can say that there are three Gods but does scripture logically reveal that their are three Gods?Do you know of any scriptures that would led a person to believe that their are three Gods?One could logically say there are three presidents, but in reality, there is only one president with all authority and only one presidency. The counselors, while dealing with the members, represent the prophet.But this does not logically fit scripture. For example Mormonism teaches multiple Gods created and formed man. The Bible reveals one God alone and all by himself created and formed man.Isaiah 448 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.24T hus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself; Now, do you see how this analogy makes compete sense and is logical? I am not asking you to believe it, but to recognize how it makes sense and is very simple and understandable. I am asking do you know of any scriptures that would reveal that their are three Gods.The LDS perspective of God can easily fit into all of the scriptures you cite from the bible.Could you explain how the following Mormon scripture compares to Isa 44:8,24?Abra 55 According to all that which they had said concerning every plant of the field before it was in the aearth, and every herb of the field before it grew; for the Gods had not caused it to rain upon the earth when they counseled to do them, and had not formed a man to till the ground.6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.7 And the Gods formed man from the dust of the ground, and took his spirit (that is, the man Link to comment
Servant Posted January 7, 2005 Share Posted January 7, 2005 btw....paul I like how you sign your name. When I read it fast it sounds like one whole name...neat. Paulo Link to comment
johnny Posted January 7, 2005 Share Posted January 7, 2005 Paul Osborne writes,If Jesus Christ is standing before you in very Person, where is the Father? Christ has a body of flesh and bones and the Father is yonder. Jesus tells us ...John 149 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?Hence three Gods become one Godhead. The clover concept doesn Link to comment
Tanyan Posted January 7, 2005 Share Posted January 7, 2005 This Thread/Topic is a "Mystery" !. Link to comment
Servant Posted January 7, 2005 Share Posted January 7, 2005 that is only because people keeping bringing it up over and over again....that they dont understand it...someone asked to make it easier by giving out an analogy or what ever but the gist is the same....and I did the best I could...however the whole covo ended up talking about egg...and clover and so we try to make it more clear by making it even clearer...really lets focus on scripture ok...is that fair enough?i just want to know how your view harmonizes with the scripture that I put out...is this even possible? Link to comment
johnny Posted January 7, 2005 Share Posted January 7, 2005 Alexander writes, Johnny, you really haven Link to comment
Servant Posted January 7, 2005 Share Posted January 7, 2005 one more thing...glad you stayed.... Link to comment
Mighty Curelom Posted January 7, 2005 Share Posted January 7, 2005 Blind man #1---"The sky is red"Blind man #2--"No, the sky is green"Blind man #1--"You're crazy....i'm telling you, the sky is red."Blind man #2--"You've got to be kidding. Everyone knows the sky is green"And so on.Or maybe this thread is more like 2 people arguing about how long unicorns live. Link to comment
Tanyan Posted January 7, 2005 Share Posted January 7, 2005 Which Trinity Model/Form is the correct "Biblical" One : Western, Eastern, Economic, Essential, Social, Trithiestic, Monarch, ?. Which Theologian/Scholar/Professor from the past or present has presented the absolute correct version ?. Thanks in advance. Link to comment
Tanyan Posted January 7, 2005 Share Posted January 7, 2005 Here we are again, "The Nicea council of the Internet round infinentum". Link to comment
Paul Osborne Posted January 7, 2005 Share Posted January 7, 2005 let us forget the clover and the egg...I just used that because what one asked. it was only to make a point.....lets focus on scripture...If God wanted to be in human form "Jesus" then I would be looking at the Father.Remember God is after all....God.Could you answer me with the scriptures I gave out...how does it harmonize with the three seperate gods with sepearte minds?and the verses I pointed out that harmonizes with the trinity that does NOT harmonize with three gods who has sperate minds...is enough proof that the trinity is not a man made thing...God cannot be Jesus simply because he is NOT our crucified Jesus. If you see the Father you will have to look to Jesus Link to comment
johnny Posted January 7, 2005 Share Posted January 7, 2005 Tanyan writes, Which Theologian/Scholar/Professor from the past or present has presented the absolute correct version ?. Thanks in advance. Could you explain why you personaly subscribe to a Monarch/Economic/Eastern/Social Trinity/Godhead? Thanks in advance. Link to comment
Servant Posted January 7, 2005 Share Posted January 7, 2005 let us forget the clover and the egg...I just used that because what one asked. it was only to make a point.....lets focus on scripture...If God wanted to be in human form "Jesus" then I would be looking at the Father.Remember God is after all....God.Could you answer me with the scriptures I gave out...how does it harmonize with the three seperate gods with sepearte minds?and the verses I pointed out that harmonizes with the trinity that does NOT harmonize with three gods who has sperate minds...is enough proof that the trinity is not a man made thing...God cannot be Jesus simply because he is NOT our crucified Jesus. If you see the Father you will have to look to Jesus Link to comment
Paul Osborne Posted January 7, 2005 Share Posted January 7, 2005 The clover concept works nicely ...Try this ...1st clover leaf is fully clover substance or nature2nd clover leaf is fully clover substance or nature3rd clover leaf is fully clover substance or nature The clover falls flat.There are leaves and a stem and to it are roots. The clover is one body having its own DNA. The clover was born from a seed and has a predecessor. This kills the Trinity doctrine on the spot!Christ has a body and the Father doesn Link to comment
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