Practical Implications Of Ordaining Women To The Priesthood

[wenglund]

I've moved pianos and refrigerators and couches and king size mattresses...without my nose twitching a bit.

You clean any counters lately?

 

Your an exceptional women--which doesn't disprove the rule. [thumbs up]

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[CA Steve]

What does the difficulty in implementing a change have to do with whether or not it should happen? That seems to not have deterred our faithful ancestors when they were asked to practice polygamy.

[Brian 2.0]

If you wanted a separate male/female hour and organization you'd probably create a new male organization. Priesthood is unisex. RS is female. And the new organization is male.

Don't know what form that would be, but it would probably have a lot of basketball in it.

[Calm]

Your an exceptional women--which doesn't disprove the rule. [thumbs up]

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

And how many women doing such things would it take for you?

Women (and men) tend to do what is necessary. If there is no one else around willing to move a piano, women will do it even if it takes a few more to help. If there is no one else willing to clean a toilet, a man will do that...though probably the rest of them will be grateful it takes only one.

[juliann]

Your an exceptional women--which doesn't disprove the rule. [thumbs up]

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

 

You have an awfully low regard for what women can and will do.  It is telling that you actually think we don't help move things. Maybe you are thinking that we can't do it without other bodies so that means we are inferior?  Well, it takes more than one man to move a piano, too. I guess women could dismiss men because they can't do things more suitable to smaller hands. But at least we have the sense to not confuse it with priesthood.

[jwhitlock]

It's always interesting to pose what-if questions about situations to see how people respond. One of the blatant inaccuracies already stated on this thread is that missions are optional for everyone. That's simply false. The Brethren have been specifically clear about the fact that going on a mission is a priesthood responsibility and is expected of young men. It is optional for young women. If women were given the priesthood, then creating an exception by gender for that particular responsibility is simply ridiculous. You would have to either make it optional for everyone holding the priesthood, or a requirement for everyone holding the priesthood.

 

Or take going to the temple as another case. A man is required to hold the priesthood in order to participate in ordinances. The lone exception is for boys under the age of 12 who are being sealed to parents. Would that same requirement apply to women if priesthood ordination were available to them, or would a double (and divisive) standard apply?

 

In addition, young men are expected to receive the priesthood at age 12. Would young women face the same requirement, or do we set up a dual path in the church for young women who don't hold the priesthood?

 

And if we don't require women to hold the priesthood as we do with men, how do we deal with that duality in the church? If people are concerned about issues dividing men and women because of who holds the priesthood, can you imagine the situation where there's a divide between women who hold the priesthood and women who don't?

 

The list could go on for quite a while. While the Lord can do almost anything, it is clear that the ordination of women would require a wholesale rework of the priesthood within the church, because of questions like the ones I've raised above.

Edited June 25, 2014 by jwhitlock

[Tacenda]

I think this is the intended reaction. But that list is ridiculous and utter speculation and seems to be based on the horrible possibility men might have to meet with....wimmenz!! (spooky music begins).

Those who hold the keys...hold the keys. Keys open the door to the room. They can arrange the furniture. This is no different than claiming that women's political rights result in unisex bathrooms. Missions are optional for everyone now. Women are organized under priesthood authority now.

Seriously? Well, I guess it would do whatever the Lord or leaders wanted it to (cue spooky music) should this situation ever occur.

Excellent response to both you and Cal!!

[Calm]

You have an awfully low regard for what women can and will do.  It is telling that you actually think we don't help move things. Maybe you are thinking that we can't do it without other bodies so that means we are inferior?  Well, it takes more than one man to move a piano, too. I guess women could dismiss men because they can't do things more suitable to smaller hands. But at least we have the sense to not confuse it with priesthood.

It is my experience in church that while the men don't show up when the appeal is sent out to the RS and the women don't show up when the appeal is sent out to the EQ (but neither do a lot of HPs), that once they are there, both sexes help where it is needed once they've finished with what they were assigned to do. For example, at different times there were more men in the kitchen washing dishes last Christmas as different people took turns when they were available to help and there were at times just as many women grabbing chairs and tables to stack them. When it was almost cleared out, it was equal numbers picking up the little bits here and there that had been missed.

[Calm]

" If women were given the priesthood, then creating an exception by gender for that particular responsibility is simply ridiculous"

So don't....what is the big deal in that?

Add-on: it is not as if women and girls are currently oblivious to what is expected and what is required when men and boys are given the Priesthood. We would be sure to alter our clothing choices to include only white blouses on Sundays, for example.

Edited June 25, 2014 by calmoriah

[wenglund]

You have an awfully low regard for what women can and will do.  It is telling that you actually think we don't help move things. Maybe you are thinking that we can't do it without other bodies so that means we are inferior?  Well, it takes more than one man to move a piano, too. I guess women could dismiss men because they can't do things more suitable to smaller hands. But at least we have the sense to not confuse it with priesthood.

 

You read my implications exactly backwards--a not uncommon result of hyper-sensitivity.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Tacenda]

In my professional life, I am a planner. This is what we do. We look at current situations, we apply a hypothetical alteration to the status quo, and then we identify the issues that would need to be addressed if that change occurs.

I apologize if it sounds like I'm asking for a prediction. I'm not.

But it should be obvious that ordination of women to the priesthood would not occur in a vacuum. Other things would change. What additional issues would need to be addressed. You've already identified a few. We don't need to predict a final determination of those issues, but its good to be aware what those issues would be.

At one time there were no youth programs, nor a Primary organization, no... (fill in the blank). There are so many possibilities, it's exciting to think about. Why we women might even thank Kate Kelly for jump starting it, even if in a negative way. I hope for a change...it feels stagnant at the moment but that might be because I never get very involved in monthly RS meetings anymore. So much better then just replicating the way men hold the PH. :-D

[Calm]

Tacenda, how do you look in white? Or would you be one of those rebellious types insisting on wearing light blue blouses instead?

And do you think we should go for large bows or just drape a scarf around our necks?

I think I will get a Winnie the Pooh scarf so I can be matchy matchy with my husband's tie. Then we can sit together in Priestesshood Meeting and look so cute.

Edited June 25, 2014 by calmoriah

[juliann]

Tacenda, how do you look in white? Or would you be one of those rebellious types insisting on wearing light blue blouses instead?

And do you think we should go for large bows or just drape a scarf around our necks?

 

Obviously, we will have to wear men's shirts and ties. Just not the pants.  Men's shoes and socks should be super modest under a skirt though!

[jwhitlock]

It appears that one of the assumptions being made is that the priesthood, as currently structured, is done so in order to meet the "needs" of men. If so, that assumption is wrong. The priesthood is structured the way it is so that men will conform to the will of God in its exercise and use. The emphasis of the priesthood is for those who hold it to conform to its requirements, not the other way around.

 

Keeping that in mind, if anyone wants to understand how the priesthood should be structured for ->anyone<- holding the priesthood, then we should look at the revelations that have been given on the subject. They're all out there in the open, and I think that the Lord gave them that way for a purpose and that purpose isn't going to change at this point.

 

The fact that some men don't conform, even though they hold the priesthood, seems to be the rationalization for tarring the way the priesthood is structured as being driven by men, and not by God. That simply doesn't appear to be the case, if one believes that the revelations really came from God.

 

The current structure of the church has allowed it to evolve to meet the different needs of women while giving them priesthood authority in how they operate. When men conform as they're required to the order of the priesthood and obey the CHI, then both men and women in the ward have a great deal of power and the ward operates as the Lord would have it. The fact that some men in positions of authority don't conform (and D&C 121 addresses that specifically) isn't justification for changing the order of the priesthood as is being demanded by some.

[Calm]

Aces! I look good in a men's shirt!

[Calm]

"The priesthood is structured the way it is so that men will conform to the will of God in its exercise and use"

Which means God can change it if he wills.

[jwhitlock]

"The priesthood is structured the way it is so that men will conform to the will of God in its exercise and use"

Which means God can change it if he wills.

 

Or if OW makes it a non-negotiable demand that nothing else is acceptable.

[Stormin' Mormon]

"The priesthood is structured the way it is so that men will conform to the will of God in its exercise and use"

Which means God can change it if he wills.

 

I don't think anyone is arguing that God can't change it, if he wills.  The discussion is what ELSE would have to change to allow for it? 

 

I don't think it is realistic to think that the Church would be EXACTLY the same as it was before with the sole exception being that women can now perform priesthood ordinances.  Other practices and doctrines would have to be changed, as well.

 

In so doing, I am not saying it would be impossible, or difficult, or not worth the cost.  But a man, intending to build a tower, sits down first and counts the cost.

[Tacenda]

So packing up and cleaning isn't actually helping with moves...good to know.

Btw, I've seen lots of women once finished with the packing taking furniture and boxes out to the trucks (and men helping with packing for that matter,though cleaning seems to be much rarer) so even if one limits moves to that, women already "line up".

I remember being in a RS presidency and helping a family move, they had several adopted special needs children some of whom have died, they adopted atleast 11 that I know of. It's hard to describe what we cleaned in that home, the bathroom especially. We moved heavy furniture and moved the washer and dryer to clean mouse poop.

We cleaned and cleaned that day, the RS president didn't scare easily. She's one of the toughest (in a good way) and most selfless people I've had the privilege to know.

Edited June 25, 2014 by Tacenda

[Calm]

Or if OW makes it a non-negotiable demand that nothing else is acceptable.

Has it changed anything yet? Is there any indication that it will?

[Calm]

But a man, intending to build a tower, sits down first and counts the cost.

A tower sure, but a temple?

What ever happened to God providing a way for his commands to be fulfilled?

[juliann]

I don't think anyone is arguing that God can't change it, if he wills.  The discussion is what ELSE would have to change to allow for it? 

 

I don't think it is realistic to think that the Church would be EXACTLY the same as it was before with the sole exception being that women can now perform priesthood ordinances.  Other practices and doctrines would have to be changed, as well.

 

In so doing, I am not saying it would be impossible, or difficult, or not worth the cost.  But a man, intending to build a tower, sits down first and counts the cost.

I do appreciate your tone and intent.  You just need to make a list of your own that reflects that.  It might be a woman building that tower under this hypothetical.     Seriously, you can't just assume that everything will still be centered around and done by males.  It can't be maintained that women have all this special stuff to add...and then not add it when given the chance. We did pretty good when RS did it's own thing....like the Welfare Program that was taken over by Priesthood.  That so many only see women's presence or contributions as frilly stuff that can't possibly be considered as important enough for men to participate in speaks to why we are in every newspaper being portrayed as sexist to the core.

 

The kind of creepy vibe is that women's stuff can be OK for men as long as women aren't participating anymore.

[Calm]

I remember being in a RS presidency and helping a family move, they had several adopted special needs children some of whom have died, they adopted atleast 11 that I know of. It's hard to describe what we cleaned in that home, the bathroom especially. We moved heavy furniture and moved the washer and dryer to clean mouse poop.

We cleaned and cleaned that day, the RS president didn't scare easily. She's one of the toughest (in a good way) and most selfless people I've had the privilege to know.

You do what you got to do...

The question is if you do it cheerfully or fighting tooth and nail all the way even if it is God pulling you along.

[Tacenda]

Tacenda, how do you look in white? Or would you be one of those rebellious types insisting on wearing light blue blouses instead?

And do you think we should go for large bows or just drape a scarf around our necks?

I think I will get a Winnie the Pooh scarf so I can be matchy matchy with my husband's tie. Then we can sit together in Priestesshood Meeting and look so cute.

You forgot the red suspenders. Thanks for the comic relief!!

[jwhitlock]

Has it changed anything yet? Is there any indication that it will?

 

That particular demand was severely misplaced.