Practical Implications Of Ordaining Women To The Priesthood

[Stormin' Mormon]

In another thread, JWhitlock made what I thought to be an excellent point:

 

So let's assume that women were given the priesthood. They would be required, then, to function organizationally in the church within the priesthood structure as revealed. This would include:

 

- All girls would be expected to be ordained to the priesthood at age 12, just as boys are. There is no contingency for optional participation within the structure of the church. Men are not considered fully active members of the church if they do not hold the priesthood.

- Girls would be expected to assume all of the responsibilities and requirements of the priesthood, including the responsibility of going on missions. It would no longer be optional for them.

- All women would be members of priesthood quorums, just like the men. Since priesthood quorums are only organized by priesthood office - no other definition of quorums is revealed - those quorums would consist of men and women.

- Since women would now be organized in the church under the revealed priesthood structures, no women-specific organizations would be needed or acceptable. Relief Society would be abolished since it would be redundant. Young Women would be folded into the Young Men priesthood structure, which would probably be renamed. There would be no separate men / women meetings or activities, because priesthood quorums are the defining, unified organization for all who hold the priesthood. Period.

- Visiting teaching would be eliminated. Priesthood outreach in the church is not limited by gender under the revelations, and so there would only be home teaching, and both men and women would be expected to home teach men and women.

- Any women-specific meetings or activities or programs would need to be eliminated since all member activity would fall under the structure of priesthood organization, since by revelation, the exercise of priesthood  cannot be limited in such a manner.

 

 

There was some brief discussion on his post before the thread moved on.  I'd like to revisit and focus on this thought.

 

What would be the practical implications to ordaining women to the priesthood?  What additional doctrines would be affected?  What are the practices that would need to change?  How would the day-to-day operations of the Church be different from what they currently are?

 

For example:  Unless the heavens are opened again and new keys granted through angelic ministration for a women-only priesthood, women would be ordained to the Melchizedek Priesthood.  Since a man cannot be ordained to the Melchizedek priesthood without first holding the Aaronic Priesthood (it is, after all, a preparatory priesthood), would that mean that Young Women would be eligible for ordination as well?

 

Would priesthood ordination among women be near universal as it is with men?  If so, what would that change do to the current auxiliaries such as Relief Society and Young Women's?  Would there still be a need for them?  If the auxiliaries continue to operate, would that introduce inequality into the Church, giving women more opportunities to serve?  That is, a woman would be able to serve in either Relief Society or Elders Quorum, but a man would only be able to serve in the latter.  If ordination is optional for women, would we have the same problem?  That is, a woman would have multiple organizations to choose to be part of, but a man would only have the one? 

 

What would this do to programs and activities such as Enrichment Night, the Women's Broadcast, or Visit Teaching? 

 

So, whether or not you agree with JWhitlock's assessment above, what WOULD the practical implications be?  What else would need to change in order to accommodate ordination of women to the priesthood? 

Edited June 24, 2014 by Stormin' Mormon

[Calm]

"What would be the practical implications to ordaining women to the priesthood"

Unless you know what the revelation included or did not include, how can we predict?

[ELF1024]

What would this do to programs and activities such as Enrichment Night, the Women's Broadcast, or Visit Teaching? 

 

 

Home Teaching and Visiting Teaching could be merged and we'd never half to hear about how much better the sisters were than than us lazy menfolk....

[Stormin' Mormon]

Unless you know what the revelation included or did not include, how can we predict?

 

This seems rather circular to me.  You seem to be saying, "we don't know what would change because we don't know what would change."  Obviously, ordination of women to the priesthood would have a rippling effect and would cause changes in many aspects of the Church.  Some of those changes would be addressed in the initial revelation, while others would be worked out at the policy or local levels over many decades. 

 

I'd like to explore the scope of that ripple.  What aspects of the Church would be touched, would have to be reconsidered, would end up altered in some way?  We can't know what the final disposition of those changes would be, but surely we can foresee that some things would, by necessity have to change.  What are those things? 

[juliann]

  I think this is the intended reaction.   But that list is ridiculous and utter speculation and seems to be based on the horrible possibility men might have to meet with....wimmenz!!  (spooky music begins).

 

Those who hold the keys...hold the keys. Keys open the door to the room. They can arrange the furniture.  This is no different than claiming that women's political rights result in unisex bathrooms.  Missions are optional for everyone now.  Women are organized under priesthood authority now.

 

What would this do to programs and activities such as Enrichment Night, the Women's Broadcast, or Visit Teaching?

 

Seriously?  Well, I guess it would do whatever the Lord or leaders wanted it to (cue spooky music) should this situation ever occur.

[juliann]

 

 

I'd like to explore the scope of that ripple.  What aspects of the Church would be touched, would have to be reconsidered, would end up altered in some way?  We can't know what the final disposition of those changes would be, but surely we can foresee that some things would, by necessity have to change.  What are those things? 

Did you not notice (cue spooky music) that all of that is based on the premise that women can join in men's activities but men  couldn't possibly ( spooky music swells to a crescendo) join in the women's activities? 

[juliann]

- Any women-specific meetings or activities or programs would need to be eliminated since all member activity would fall under the structure of priesthood organization, since by revelation, the exercise of priesthood  cannot be limited in such a manner.

 

Cause if we had a revelation that women should be ordained it would never work (what was God thinking??) As we all know, the priesthood would never lower itself to actually include their strengths, needs or interests because those wimmenz would  limit it just by looking at it! (cue triumphal march music)

 

Sorry, but this stuff is so awful it shouldn't be taken seriously.

[Calm]

This seems rather circular to me. You seem to be saying, "we don't know what would change because we don't know what would change."

I mean we wouldn't know what would change because we don't know the conditions if any that God would attach to it.

What would the difference be if God made the Priesthood optional for women, if he only gave it to endowed women, if he put an age limit on it, if he included in the revelation that he wanted men and women to now have identical treatment, if he instructed that women could only exercise ordinances within the family structure, not the church administrative?

Each variable has a huge effecton how one would predict how ordination would be implemented.

Edited June 24, 2014 by calmoriah

[Stormin' Mormon]

In my professional life, I am a planner.  This is what we do.  We look at current situations, we apply a hypothetical alteration to the status quo, and then we identify the issues that would need to be addressed if that change occurs. 

 

I apologize if it sounds like I'm asking for a prediction.  I'm not. 

 

But it should be obvious that ordination of women to the priesthood would not occur in a vacuum.  Other things would change.  What additional issues would need to be addressed.  You've already identified a few.  We don't need to predict a final determination of those issues, but its good to be aware what those issues would be.

[Kaleb Webb]

I think having gender-separated meetings for third hour would still be good, because in a lot of ways [especially for the youth], girls and boys have different needs. Just take sunday school/gospel doctrine and make it a united priesthood gathering instead. 

[Stormin' Mormon]

Did you not notice (cue spooky music) that all of that is based on the premise that women can join in men's activities but men  couldn't possibly ( spooky music swells to a crescendo) join in the women's activities? 

 

I didn't hear any spooky music.  I don't believe that the intent was to imply that any change was bad.

 

But, what do I know?  I'm just a dude.

[juliann]

I didn't hear any spooky music.  I don't believe that the intent was to imply that any change was bad.

 

But, what do I know?  I'm just a dude.

It wasn't your list, SM.  But please take a careful look at it and see how it is all based on a male point of view.  That is the very thing that has gotten us where we are right now.  Women are tired of being considered outsiders that need to be let in to a male club...only to ruin it as this list suggests.  The best thing men can do in current circumstances is start to analyze the unintended message in their words. This should concern you:  "Relief Society would be abolished since it would be redundant. Young Women would be folded into the Young Men priesthood structure, which would probably be renamed."  Surely you can see this list is obliterate women not only organizationally but by name. That it would never occur to the person who created this that men might be the ones obliterated, that it couldn't even be considered (and it would be just as absurd) is the problem.  Not anything about the priesthood.

 

We have no idea what would happen.  And the idea that this would be some kind of disaster is implying the church is incompetent to fulfill God's commands.

[Zakuska]

Personally, I just find it sad that they don't realize they already have the priesthood and it is called the Relief Society. Since they are roughly equivalent to a Melq. P Elder. Not much would need to change at all. None of the prayers or anything that I'm aware of. Because they are to be done by a "holder of the Melq. P" If we admit that they do hold the Melq P. boom.  All done.

[juliann]

 

 

But it should be obvious that ordination of women to the priesthood would not occur in a vacuum.  Other things would change.  What additional issues would need to be addressed.  You've already identified a few.  We don't need to predict a final determination of those issues, but its good to be aware what those issues would be.

The attitude towards women will be the issue.  This wouldn't be an organizational problem.  We would roll with the punches, just like women did when Correlation created fundamental change (and I remember it. )

[wenglund]

Did you not notice (cue spooky music) that all of that is based on the premise that women can join in men's activities but men  couldn't possibly ( spooky music swells to a crescendo) join in the women's activities? 

 

Yes...men will be lining up to participate in homemaking night just as the women will be lining up to help with moves. Even the spooky music won't keep either of them away.LOL

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund

[jwhitlock]

The revelations concerning priesthood (D&C 20 and 84, for instance) are rather specific in how it is organized and structured in our day. Unity of priesthood quorums is a central theme to the revelations. When the priesthood is received, a covenant is made to conform to the requirements of the priesthood, not the other way around. The women's organizations have the flexibility of conforming to meet the needs of women, because of the relatively autonomous authority given to female organization leaders.

 

Here's something to consider - what organizational leaders in the ward have the least amount of autonomy? It's the Young Men's presidency. Since the bishop is the Aaronic priesthood president, virtually everything done by the YM leaders should be done under his direction. This is because the order of the priesthood requires it.

 

As I noted, the revelations in the priesthood make no provisions for any individual differences in how it is given, used and organized. Men are expected to receive the priesthood at the age of 12 and then work to conform to the oath and covenant as defined in the priesthood. It would require fundamental changes to everything that has been revealed about the priesthood were women to be ordained. Would women be required to adhere to the same structure and policies as currently applied to men, or would they be different? And if they're different, how can the principle of unity in the priesthood be preserved?

 

I think it is absolutely necessary, when demands are made to change church doctrine or policy, to consider what the real world impact of those changes would be. When blacks were finally (joyfully!) given the priesthood, all it required was a simple lifting of the restriction. There didn't need to be any significant adjustments to anything else concerning the priesthood, how it is conferred, organized, etc. It was an amazing thing.

 

That would clearly not be the case with women priesthood holders. It would be difficult to restructure the priesthood in that case and would probably challenge even some doctrinal principles of the church. For instance, someone posted that when we talk about God the Father, we're really always talking about he / she. I don't see any doctrinal support for that kind of rationalization, yet if women were to receive the priesthood and be able to exercise it fully just as men do, then how would things such as temple ceremonies, which are centered specifically around God the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ, be impacted? (And no, no more details are appropriate on that subject.)

 

Lots of difficult questions would need to be resolved, involving significant restructuring of the priesthood. I personally think the Lord has structured the priesthood specifically in preparation for the Second Coming, and that what we're going to see is a strengthening of that structure and the oath and covenant, not a restructuring.

[Calm]

the women will be lining up to help with moves.

 

So packing up and cleaning isn't actually helping with moves...good to know.

Btw, I've seen lots of women once finished with the packing taking furniture and boxes out to the trucks (and men helping with packing for that matter,though cleaning seems to be much rarer) so even if one limits moves to that, women already "line up".

[CA Steve]

Can you imagine what will happen if we let them vote!

 

*ducks & runs for cover*

 

On a serious note how would this be anywhere near as difficult a change as when polygamy was outlawed?

 

Back to bad humor.

 

It'll work because the women will be allowed to implement the changes . . .officially.

[juliann]

 

 

Lots of difficult questions would need to be resolved, involving significant restructuring of the priesthood. I personally think the Lord has structured the priesthood specifically in preparation for the Second Coming, and that what we're going to see is a strengthening of that structure and the oath and covenant, not a restructuring.

And you don't think the Prophet is up to administering a new revelation if it occurred.  That is all I'm hearing.  

[juliann]

So packing up and cleaning isn't actually helping with moves...good to know.

Btw, I've seen lots of women once finished with the packing taking furniture and boxes out to the trucks (and men helping with packing for that matter,though cleaning seems to be much rarer) so even if one limits moves to that, women already "line up".

Oh...and we wouldn't put away those tables and chairs, either!  Oh, wait...we already do that, too.

[juliann]

Seriously, SM.  The biggest problem with this hypothetical situation seems to be more about what the men won't do.

[wenglund]

So packing up and cleaning isn't actually helping with moves...good to know.

Btw, I've seen lots of women once finished with the packing taking furniture and boxes out to the trucks (and men helping with packing for that matter,though cleaning seems to be much rarer) so even if one limits moves to that, women already "line up".

 

Wiping down a counter and hefting an upright piano are hardly the same thing--that is, unless some sort of magic is involved al la Bewitched.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Calm]

If Priesthood is as defined "the power and authority that God gives to men to act in all things for the salvation of man", then it seems it would be just as easy for God if he desires to give his power and authority to women.

[Calm]

Wiping down a counter and hefting an upright piano are hardly the same thing--that is, unless some sort of magic is involved al la Bewitched.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I've moved pianos and refrigerators and couches and king size mattresses...without my nose twitching a bit.

You clean any counters lately?

Edited June 25, 2014 by calmoriah

[wenglund]

Seriously, SM.  The biggest problem with this hypothetical situation seems to be more about what the men won't do.

 

Precisely. Isn't that, to some degree, the point in God reserving the priesthood to men?

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-