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Sisters And The Priesthood Session - Part 2


rockpond

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If so, that would be very sad.  I prefer my faith to be led by Christ, not opinion.

Me too.  But don't you see that PR can get in the way of it? Or I mean get in the way of being the peculiar church not only to the world but to it's members.  

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Or it could be that in the past with a closer knit community, excommunications worked better at drawing someone back into the faith so more were issued for less serious nature offenses, such as belief issues.

 

Now with the faith being not only spread out but even in Utah social options being much expanded, the social pressure of an excommunication is extremely low so that someone who is excommunicated for a belief issue is much more likely to wander away than feel the need to reconsider and repent, especially given the ease with the tech allowing people to find others of like mind to support them in apostasy.  So now keeping a sense of connection with the faith is more effective than the wake up call that excommunication used to be.

 

I do believe that PR is a factor, but I also believe it is blown out of proportion and is less of a factor on an individual basis in most cases of excommunication.  You must remember we have never had members who had so easy access to public venues so it is impossible to compare behaviours of the past among those who had doubts and disagreemeents even to the same point that many do today, yet had no pulpit to preach them from.

 

Those who did find a pulpit in the past had gone much farther in their personal apostasy usually than those currently finding public notice.

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I guess the law of averages might mean a smattering of members who have gone less active or even departed the faith. If they requested that their "I'm a Mormon" clip be deleted, I am sure that would be honored. I would suppose that an equal or greater portion of the OW profiles and/or Facebook members that have remained active (and read a few dozen profiles, then judge for yourself how many are current, faithful, female members) have considered their position and decided that sustaining the prophet, rather than following Sister Kelly and her merry band, was the wisest choice and would not today choose to be affiliated with OW.

 

Sustain is not a synonym for "agree with"

 

And again, given the probable 30% activity rate in the church generally, their 60% is quite good

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Gray-I can understand it happening after the fact, but in the case of OW, these are profiles that were put up that specifically say they are non Mormon, or members who have resigned when they made the profile.

 

Isn't it dishonest to say that the profiles on OW are all from sincerely believing Mormons when many aren't?

 

(My quote function/copy and paste function aren't working right now-sorry).

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Gray-I can understand it happening after the fact, but in the case of OW, these are profiles that were put up that specifically say they are non Mormon, or members who have resigned when they made the profile.

 

Isn't it dishonest to say that the profiles on OW are all from sincerely believing Mormons when many aren't?

 

(My quote function/copy and paste function aren't working right now-sorry).

 

Who claimed that all of them were from current believers? It seems like the profiles themselves are transparent.

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Which contradicts their public statement about their membership and thus even if I agreed with everything else they were doing, I would refuse to be a part of it.

" Similarly, each profile on Ordain Women is an expression of sincere faith in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and an equally sincere explanation of why each individual hopes for women’s ordination.... “We’re Mormon,” the pictures say to visitors of the site. “Can’t you see?”.

 

 

That claim seems to have been made by the author of this article (Laura Marostica), not Kate Kelly. Marostica is a BYU student I think. Is she a leader of OW? She also writes for the DN: http://www.deseretnews.com/author/22964/Laura-Marostica.html

 

http://www.buzzfeed.com/lauradomenica/feminism-in-faith-mormonism

 

 

 

When the Ordain Women website went live last March, it had 24 profiles, modeled on the church’s hugely successful “I’m a Mormon” campaign, a rebranding push attempting to show the diversity — and normalcy — of LDS members. Similarly, each profile on Ordain Women is an expression of sincere faith in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and an equally sincere explanation of why each individual hopes for women’s ordination. Twenty-four profiles was the benchmark chosen by Kelly and the other founding members: Twenty-four, so the site could look nice and symmetrical — and so no one would feel like they were going it alone.
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Who claimed that all of them were from current believers? It seems like the profiles themselves are transparent.

Gray, I have also seen this claim coming directly from OW on more than one occasion.  It is no secret that Margaret Toscano has been heavily involved, for instance.  It isn't that I find that particularly problematic in and of itself...but the obvious attempt to paint everyone is an active member is a problem because it cuts to credibility. 

 

I think that OW has been run brilliantly as a media campaign, media is extremely forgiving when it comes to activism in a popular cause. But Kelly has said extremely unfortunate things and continues to do so.  She has called moderate feminists, who rank and file admire, really vicious names.  Her responses to their MormonStory podcast was one of the most shocking and disappointing things I have ever seen.  There is obvious friction between the two camps so it could almost be written off as a family squabble, but then she comes out with  she just doesn't like pants in her discussion of Pants Day in the NYT.  So she is much more cautious when dismissing other movements, even a subtle dig at FMH, to the point there has been  damage control along the lines of it was the reporters fault. I also don't appreciate how OW has redefined that brilliant pants day to the point that I am now leery of wearing pants because of the associations they are piling on top of it.

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Thanks Juliann for backing the CFR, after a night of cleaning puke buckets and wondering if this would be the one that hospitalised her (for thos not aware I have a young adult daughter with diabetes) and getting practically through the entire original Wizard of Oz as a distraction measure but somehow managing not to burn my throat out like I did with Princess Bride last time his happen, I did a cursory look on my iPad for the references, but it has been around six months and there is a lot of clutter so it needs a better instrument.

I am now promising to turn off the iPad and try to get back to sleep (the dog woke me up about 8 or 9 after finally everyone settling down af 6.

So my apologies Gray....

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Gray, I have also seen this claim coming directly from OW on more than one occasion.  It is no secret that Margaret Toscano has been heavily involved, for instance.  It isn't that I find that particularly problematic in and of itself...but the obvious attempt to paint everyone is an active member is a problem because it cuts to credibility. 

 

I think that OW has been run brilliantly as a media campaign, media is extremely forgiving when it comes to activism in a popular cause. But Kelly has said extremely unfortunate things and continues to do so.  She has called moderate feminists, who rank and file admire, really vicious names.  Her responses to their MormonStory podcast was one of the most shocking and disappointing things I have ever seen.  There is obvious friction between the two camps so it could almost be written off as a family squabble, but then she comes out with  she just doesn't like pants in her discussion of Pants Day in the NYT.  So she is much more cautious when dismissing other movements, even a subtle dig at FMH, to the point there has been  damage control along the lines of it was the reporters fault. I also don't appreciate how OW has redefined that brilliant pants day to the point that I am now leery of wearing pants because of the associations they are piling on top of it.

 

I'm sure you know more than I do, as I haven't followed them very closely.  I do support women's ordination. Thanks!

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Thanks Juliann for backing the CFR, after a night of cleaning puke buckets and wondering if this would be the one that hospitalised her (for thos not aware I have a young adult daughter with diabetes) and getting practically through the entire original Wizard of Oz as a distraction measure but somehow managing not to burn my throat out like I did with Princess Bride last time his happen, I did a cursory look on my iPad for the references, but it has been around six months and there is a lot of clutter so it needs a better instrument.

I am now promising to turn off the iPad and try to get back to sleep (the dog woke me up about 8 or 9 after finally everyone settling down af 6.

So my apologies Gray....

 

Don't worry - my best to you and your family

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I'm sure you know more than I do, as I haven't followed them very closely.  I do support women's ordination. Thanks!

I'm agnostic, Gray. It certainly would make change faster but I worry about the collateral damage. It is such a cliche to throw responsibility for our thoughts onto some group or person, but I was leaning toward ordination until OW came along. But that was probably because the moderate feminists stepped in and I feel much more solidarity with the stand that complaining about what men won't give you and demanding their stuff isn't even a consistent feminist position. Most of all, my concern is with the rank and file who are literally fighting this with suicide bombs as it all ultimately ends up demeaning priesthood itself.

 

There is agreement on underlying changes, Neylan McBaine has articulated that well...and in a church friendly forum such as the FairMormon conference (Church News almost reports it).  I think the little things need to be attended to so that it isn't so scary.  The church is making small steps, which actually point out how bad the situation is, unfortunately. 

 

Most of all, I think a foundation has to be built and we don't have it. Last year's Lady in the Temple conference is starting to do that by providing scriptural and archaeological evidence supporting a lady in the temple. It is the moderates, who are populated with scholars, laying this foundation and their work is completely ignored by the more radical elements which I find mystifying.

 

This is beginning to look more like a very male battle for control over the discussion itself by OW. Anyway, I really like the approach of finding our own authority and power by excavating what is there.  But it is a long slow grind without the recognition and glamorous visibility of protests.  This is where I now think the work needs to be done. OW is in danger of looking a little anti-intellectual in comparison, which may explain the over reliance on verbal attack.

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Grey-I agree they do seem transparent.

 

I don't think anyone on the profiles is trying to hide anything, and in and of itself I don't think it's an issue that there are non and ex members participating in the OW movement.

 

This would be a non-issue except that Kelly has attempted to gain traction for the cause within the LDS membership by implying that everyone involved is an active, supportive member of the LDS church.  Since that's not the case, it does make a person wonder how credible she is when it comes to other, more important, issues.

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They are advertising that they have lots of funds to pay the way for those who want to come from outside SLC.   So I'm thinking that this won't really be about supporters, no matter what size crowd there may be --- lots of people might show up for the priesthood session for a free trip to SLC.

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