To What Extent Is It Appropriate To Go Off Message In Gospel Doctrine Class

[Stone holm]

Why does the "blame" lie with those "higher up the food chain"?  It's easy to fix blame, if we want to do that.  It's much more of a challenge to fix the problem (and it may well be a problem of perception).  It seems to me that the people closer (closest) to the very top of "the food chain" are those who expend the most effort to encourage us to teach and to learn in the Savior's way, to teach and to learn by the Spirit, to love what we teach, and to love those whom we teach, to strive to befriend the members of our classes and to strive to follow the Spirit by being sensitive to their individual needs, and so on. Here's an example: https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2012/10/one-step-closer-to-the-savior?lang=eng.   

 

While I'm not blaming anyone, whether the water makes it to the end of the row (i.e., the responsibility for how well any of this counsel is being implemented) rests with the leaders of Wards and Stakes.  And I stand by what I said previously: the responsibility for whether I get anything out of a particular class or lesson lies, overwhelmingly, with me.

Well the locals do not prepare the manuals.

[Kenngo1969]

Well the locals do not prepare the manuals.

[sigh.]    The manual is simply a resource.  The Spirit is "The Ultimate 'Manual'."  If neither the teacher nor his pupils bring the Spirit to class with them, then the best manual in the world won't make a class worthwhile.

 

1.  OP asks what appears to be a sincere question in a quest for sincere responses

2.  Sincere, well-thought-out response is provided

3.  However, since the Sincere Response provided in #2, above, doesn't fit with the OP's a priori assumptions (in this thread, that the manuals suck, and that it's the manuals that are the problem), the OP dismisses that response with a one-line Cyber-wave of his hand.

4.  Lather, rinse, and repeat.

 

I'm done.  You're absolutely right, Stone Holm.  The manuals suck.  The teachers, with few exceptions, all suck.  The Spirit plays no role in the process, neither in helping the teacher to teach nor in helping students to learn. Students should play no role in their own learning, save to come to class as empty vessels and passively wait to be filled.  When that doesn't happen, they should blame the manuals and/or the teachers. Lather, rinse, and repeat.  Yep.  That'll solve the problem.

Edited February 22, 2014 by Kenngo1969

[Kenngo1969]

Sigh.  Yep.  There's nothing "new" left "under the sun."  There are no mysteries left regarding faith, or repentance, or the Atonement ... We've heard it all before, and we're all so adept at applying it that two hours and forty-five minutes of the three-hour meeting block each week is superfluous!  There are only three questions left which are worth pondering: (1) Given this state of affairs, why do we have to hear it ... all ... again?; (2) Since we've heard it all before and have no need of hearing (any of) it again, why is the three-hour block 2 hours and 45 minutes too long?  (In fact, since we're all so adept at applying it, even the Sacrament (along with repentance and the Atonement) is superfluous!)  And (3) Why haven't we been translated yet? (The City of Enoch is waiting for us!)

 

P.S.: I've been invited to teach my Elder's Quorum tomorrow, Stone Holm.  I'm sure you would find my lesson to be pure torture ... or, at least, a good chance to take a nap!  It's about tithing and it's taken from Elder Bednar's address of last October, "The Windows of Heaven."  (Been there, heard that!  And since I'm sure all of the members of my class are full-tithe-paying, temple-recommend-holding, faithful Brethren, they'll all feel the same way!  So I haven't even undertaken any preparation.  I don't have any handouts.  I don't have any visual aids.  I'm just going to pass out copies of the talk and we'll take turns reading through it aloud, verbatim, perhaps pausing for a moment or two if a class member has an occasional comment or question, but ... probably not.

Edited February 22, 2014 by Kenngo1969

[mfbukowski]

[sigh.]    The manual is simply a resource.  The Spirit is "The Ultimate 'Manual'."  If neither the teacher nor his pupils bring the Spirit to class with them, then the best manual in the world won't make a class worthwhile.

 

1.  OP asks what appears to be a sincere question in a quest for sincere responses

2.  Sincere, well-thought-out response is provided

3.  However, since the Sincere Response provided in #2, above, doesn't fit with the OP's a priori assumptions (in this thread, that the manuals suck, and that it's the manuals that are the problem), the OP dismisses that response with a one-line Cyber-wave of his hand.

4.  Lather, rinse, and repeat.

 

I'm done.  You're absolutely right, Stone Holm.  The manuals suck.  The teachers, with few exceptions, all suck.  The Spirit plays no role in the process, neither in helping the teacher to teach nor in helping students to learn. Students should play no role in their own learning, save to come to class as empty vessels and passively wait to be filled.  When that doesn't happen, they should blame the manuals and/or the teachers. Lather, rinse, and repeat.  Yep.  That'll solve the problem.

If you think about it, the "gospel basics" are about the most profound truths you can even contemplate.  We are to be guided by the spirit in that contemplation.  The idea that God has a body totally revolutionizes western civilization which is based on the idea that spirit is NOT matter, and hence science and religion conflict, an idea which is false.

 

Nobody understands how the God of the universe could become human except us.

 

Nobody knows how the atonement works, yet it gives peace and comfort to millions across the world- not only LDS. 

 

One could spend several lifetimes contemplating the basics, if you think and pray about it.

 

Oh wait.  I guess that's a very large "IF".  This is a participatory church.  We are supposed to figure it out for ourselves, but some want it all in a book of instructions.  We see this again and again on this board, also in the complaint that the prophets don't give us more answers.  Yet we are all supposed to be prophets! 

 

We should not need our mommies any more to tell us how things work.

 

The problem is not that there is a lack of instruction, it's that there is a lack of ability and willingness to put in the effort to grow personally without instructions.

 

I think they call that being an "adult".

[mfbukowski]

Some, it seems, do not want to find the universe contained in a drop of milk.

[JLHPROF]

 

P.S.: I've been invited to teach my Elder's Quorum tomorrow, Stone Holm.  I'm sure you would find my lesson to be pure torture ... or, at least, a good chance to take a nap!  It's about tithing and it's taken from Elder Bednar's address of last October, "The Windows of Heaven."  (Been there, heard that!  And since I'm sure all of the members of my class are full-tithe-paying, temple-recommend-holding, faithful Brethren, they'll all feel the same way!  So I haven't even undertaken any preparation.  I don't have any handouts.  I don't have any visual aids.  I'm just going to pass out copies of the talk and we'll take turns reading through it aloud, verbatim, perhaps pausing for a moment or two if a class member has an occasional comment or question, but ... probably not.

 

You're right, that does sound painful.  Or, you could teach an interesting lesson on tithing.  There is so much you could discuss and elevate some understanding on the principle of tithing, instead of rehashing why we pay it and why it's good....I double dare you! 

[Stone holm]

If you think about it, the "gospel basics" are about the most profound truths you can even contemplate.  We are to be guided by the spirit in that contemplation.  The idea that God has a body totally revolutionizes western civilization which is based on the idea that spirit is NOT matter, and hence science and religion conflict, an idea which is false.

 

Nobody understands how the God of the universe could become human except us.

 

Nobody knows how the atonement works, yet it gives peace and comfort to millions across the world- not only LDS. 

 

One could spend several lifetimes contemplating the basics, if you think and pray about it.

 

Oh wait.  I guess that's a very large "IF".  This is a participatory church.  We are supposed to figure it out for ourselves, but some want it all in a book of instructions.  We see this again and again on this board, also in the complaint that the prophets don't give us more answers.  Yet we are all supposed to be prophets! 

 

We should not need our mommies any more to tell us how things work.

 

The problem is not that there is a lack of instruction, it's that there is a lack of ability and willingness to put in the effort to grow personally without instructions.

 

I think they call that being an "adult".

In that case, we could shorten the meeting schedule by an hour , right and just go home and study?

[Stone holm]

Some, it seems, do not want to find the universe contained in a drop of milk.

Yeah, my wife drinks raw milk and condemns pasteurization and homogenization as taking away all the nutrition for a false sense of security, as for myself, my doctor prescribed almond juice about three years ago.

[ERayR]

In that case, we could shorten the meeting schedule by an hour , right and just go home and study?

 

Or lengthen the schedule by two hours because we don't go home and study.

[mfbukowski]

In that case, we could shorten the meeting schedule by an hour , right and just go home and study?

Service, my son, service.  Ya gotta teach the kiddies, some are older than others.

[hagoth7]

If a class appears to go off message during the scheduled indoctrination for the week, is it appropriate to join in? If something said in class causes a person to make a comment, or ask a question which is not in the prescribed lesson for the week, should we be concerned.

I was Sunday School president once when a Gospel Doctrine teacher who was familiar with my Nephites in Europe research commented briefly on it during the class on Alma 63, and invited me to comment further. I declined, allowing him to get back to his scheduled lesson.  It wasn't the appropriate venue for a discussion like that.

[ERayR]

I was Sunday School president once when a Gospel Doctrine teacher who was familiar with my Nephites in Europe research commented briefly on it during the class on Alma 63, and invited me to comment further. I declined, allowing him to get back to his scheduled lesson.  It wasn't the appropriate venue for a discussion like that.

 

I find it necessary to bite my tongue occasionally so that the lesson can proceed undiverted.  The lessons should not be tailored to my fertile imagination but rather,  as Spock would say, To the needs of the many.

 

PS. I really do enjoy your Nephites in Europe.  It has given me food for considerable meditation and the idea helps understand some questions of European history I have had.

Edited February 23, 2014 by ERayR

[Kenngo1969]

You're right, that does sound painful.  Or, you could teach an interesting lesson on tithing.  There is so much you could discuss and elevate some understanding on the principle of tithing, instead of rehashing why we pay it and why it's good....I double dare you! 

Whoooosh!!!!  (Sorry. )  I only told Stone Holm about my "uninspired" lesson plan because he has such great faith in the teachers of the Church and in their ability to teach inspired lessons while adhering to the goal of covering certain things in the lesson.  I did actually have several visual aids, and while I did mention why we pay tithing (using visual aids to provide several examples and making the point that we should ponder [individually; I didn't ask anyone to confess his sins ] whether we take for granted the many resources we have in the Church as a result of tithing) I spent the Lion's Share of the lesson on the significant but subtle spiritual blessings that Elder Bednar points out come from the payment of Tithing.

[Stone holm]

Well this was my first week of self imposed vow of silence in Sunday school, had to cheat a little and point out to my wife that the instructor was incorrect in stating that Abraham lied to Pharoah, after a whispered argument as to who should point out the Scripture, she finally did so. Left my vow intact.

[JLHPROF]

Well this was my first week of self imposed vow of silence in Sunday school, had to cheat a little and point out to my wife that the instructor was incorrect in stating that Abraham lied to Pharoah, after a whispered argument as to who should point out the Scripture, she finally did so. Left my vow intact.

 

It's very hard to maintain such a vow.  Believe me I know from experience. (I'm actually considering taking such a vow on this board and resuming my lurker status I had for quite some time).  It's just so hard not to comment when you feel like something is in error, but sometimes discretion is better.

[Stone holm]

It's very hard to maintain such a vow.  Believe me I know from experience. (I'm actually considering taking such a vow on this board and resuming my lurker status I had for quite some time).  It's just so hard not to comment when you feel like something is in error, but sometimes discretion is better.

Well, this Board is so off message that the absence of one voice makes no difference. The absence of a couple voices in a Ward Sunday School class, however, can make a substantial difference.

[Bikeemikey]

Well, this Board is so off message that the absence of one voice makes no difference. The absence of a couple voices in a Ward Sunday School class, however, can make a substantial difference.

 

How was Sunday School in my absence?

[Stone holm]

How was Sunday School in my absence?

Fairly good, I didn't comment...but pointed out an error to Kathy and after brief whispered argument about my vow of silence she gave the correction. Wasn't lot of people there. SS Pres said he didn't complain about the comments, so not sure what to think. I think instructor is probably doomed though by the milk diet patrol...