cdowis Posted January 23, 2014 Author Posted January 23, 2014 (edited) Calmoriah, Thanks for filling in the details. Edited January 23, 2014 by cdowis
Stone holm Posted January 23, 2014 Posted January 23, 2014 I know that BY had hard feelings towards her. I vaguely remember that BY and some of the brethren wanted to help JS to escape from Carthage. He went to Emma to get JS's horse, and she refused to allow him to take it. As I understand, he partially blamed her for the death of Joseph for not allowing him to take the horse.Brigham Young was not in the country at the time of Joseph's death. I don't think that Br. Brigham was necessarily an easy man to get along with, a brilliant organizer and instrumental in salvaging and guiding the Church after Nauvoo, but not an easy man to get along with. He and John Taylor had a famous personality conflict. There was hard feelings it has long been suggested between Emma and BY. Who was really to blame is hard to sort out, but it doesn't seem that Emma was held quite at the level of esteem by the Utah pioneer saints, as she is today.
JLHPROF Posted January 23, 2014 Posted January 23, 2014 Brigham Young was not in the country at the time of Joseph's death. I don't think that Br. Brigham was necessarily an easy man to get along with, a brilliant organizer and instrumental in salvaging and guiding the Church after Nauvoo, but not an easy man to get along with. He and John Taylor had a famous personality conflict. There was hard feelings it has long been suggested between Emma and BY. Who was really to blame is hard to sort out, but it doesn't seem that Emma was held quite at the level of esteem by the Utah pioneer saints, as she is today. Well, Brigham might have been a prophet, but he had an ego. His issue with Emma was she refused to follow his leadership and fought him on issues so he did villify her somewhat, even to the point of making up a few stories. HIs ego was often an issue for him. (And his "personality conflict" with John Taylor was blatant dislike for each other). However, the current level of esteem does not seem to be based in historical fact or her actual life.
Storm Rider Posted January 23, 2014 Posted January 23, 2014 (edited) I remember reading several of BY's statements about Emma; he would more than just "vilify her somewhat". There was a high degree of anger there. I think Emma responded in kind, but I don't recall her using such strong language. Edited January 24, 2014 by Storm Rider
Storm Rider Posted January 23, 2014 Posted January 23, 2014 Um, so how many procreative wives did he have? I mean with children fathered by Joseph Smith. As far as is known Emma is the only woman that bore his children. Several claimed to have had children by Joseph, but DNA tests of those alleged descendants have proved there is not relationship between them and Joseph. Some have felt that it is rather strange that while many critics allege Joseph used these women as sexual toys there was not any children. Some of the most vile of anti-Mormon literature devolve into outlandish claims. Regardless, what we know is that Joseph was sealed to a number of women and only Emma is known to have bore his children. 1
EllenMaksoud Posted January 23, 2014 Posted January 23, 2014 (edited) As far as is known Emma is the only woman that bore his children. Several claimed to have had children by Joseph, but DNA tests of those alleged descendants have proved there is not relationship between them and Joseph. Some have felt that it is rather strange that while many critics allege Joseph used these women as sexual toys there was not any children. Some of the most vile of anti-Mormon literature devolve into outlandish claims. Regardless, what we know is that Joseph was sealed to a number of women and only Emma is known to have bore his children. If I remember correctly, my sense of it is that the prophets marriage to the wives aside from Emma were for protection of those women due to rights issues. As to polygamy, something to think about is the parable of the ten virgins, Matt 25:1-3. Is this giving permission for a man to have up to 10 wives? Being deliberately facetious here. Edited January 23, 2014 by EllenMaksoud
Calm Posted January 23, 2014 Posted January 23, 2014 (edited) "I remember correctly, my sense of it is that the prophets marriage to the wives aside from Emma were for protection of those women due to rights issues"The only claims on Joseph's estate by plural wives were if I understand it correctly for the estate he had managed for the two Lawerence sisters as their guardian, not as their husband...perhaps the misunderstanding arose from that.This might have been true in Utah, but not originally in Nauvoo because the marriages were secret and thus couldn't br used in court and bigamy was illegal anyway so any plural civil marriages would have been legally invalid. In Nauvoo, they were not claiming civil authority for the plural marriages.And Emma's rights were barely respected by the law from what I just read....so low probability. I suspect someone heard some reasoning for Utah plural marriage which did allow lower income women much more economic mobility than their monogamous sisters and extrapolate back to Nauvoo, but the systems were very different due to legal restrictions early on and persecution. Edited January 23, 2014 by calmoriah
Stone holm Posted January 23, 2014 Posted January 23, 2014 "I remember correctly, my sense of it is that the prophets marriage to the wives aside from Emma were for protection of those women due to rights issues"The only claims on Joseph's estate by plural wives were if I understand it correctly for the estate he had managed for the two Lawerence sisters as their guardian, not as their husband...perhaps the misunderstanding arose from that.This might have been true in Utah, but not originally in Nauvoo because the marriages were secret and thus couldn't br used in court and bigamy was illegal anyway so any plural civil marriages would have been legally invalid. In Nauvoo, they were not claiming civil authority for the plural marriages.And Emma's rights were barely respected by the law from what I just read....so low probability. I suspect someone heard some reasoning for Utah plural marriage which did allow lower income women much more economic mobility than their monogamous sisters and extrapolate back to Nauvoo, but the systems were very different due to legal restrictions early on and persecution.I agree with this. I also have some suspicions as to whether the whole "to protect their rights" spin wasn't actually just a spin which was later developed to give a more acceptable explanation to the non Mormon world of why we were practicing non traditional marriage.
cdowis Posted January 23, 2014 Author Posted January 23, 2014 Haven't heard of "protection issue" for JS marriages, but has been used for BY, especially during the migration.
Tacenda Posted January 23, 2014 Posted January 23, 2014 As far as is known Emma is the only woman that bore his children. Several claimed to have had children by Joseph, but DNA tests of those alleged descendants have proved there is not relationship between them and Joseph. Some have felt that it is rather strange that while many critics allege Joseph used these women as sexual toys there was not any children. Some of the most vile of anti-Mormon literature devolve into outlandish claims. Regardless, what we know is that Joseph was sealed to a number of women and only Emma is known to have bore his children. Well, Joseph was practicing polygamy/polyandry while stating he only had one wife. Therefore, he wouldn't want to get anyone pregnant. He would take natural methods to avoid it, IMO. Makes sense to me, since there are documented cases of him being with his wives, maybe not all, in every sense of the word. Some people think he must not have since there aren't any verified, except for 1 more than likely, children.
Stone holm Posted January 23, 2014 Posted January 23, 2014 Well, Joseph was practicing polygamy/polyandry while stating he only had one wife. Therefore, he wouldn't want to get anyone pregnant. He would take natural methods to avoid it, IMO. Makes sense to me, since there are documented cases of him being with his wives, maybe not all, in every sense of the word. Some people think he must not have since there aren't any verified, except for 1 more than likely, children.Sex is really irrelevant to the main purpose of this thread, as I understand it. The thread isn't about sex, it's about whether the Church is manipulating Emma's image for ideological reasons, and whether that is fair to people like Eliza Snow who were also widowed by the martyrdom but remained faithful and made substantial ongoing contributions to Mormon culture and doctrinal understanding, or Hyrum's wife who stayed faithful and stuck to the trek west despite great hardship and raised children who served in leadership positions. 1
cdowis Posted January 23, 2014 Author Posted January 23, 2014 "Makes sense to me, since there are documented cases of him being with his wives, maybe not all, in every sense of the word. " http://www.josephsmithspolygamy.com/JSPSexuality/MASTERJSPSexuality.html deals with that issue.
JLHPROF Posted January 23, 2014 Posted January 23, 2014 (edited) Sex is really irrelevant to the main purpose of this thread, as I understand it. The thread isn't about sex, it's about whether the Church is manipulating Emma's image for ideological reasons, and whether that is fair to people like Eliza Snow who were also widowed by the martyrdom but remained faithful and made substantial ongoing contributions to Mormon culture and doctrinal understanding, or Hyrum's wife who stayed faithful and stuck to the trek west despite great hardship and raised children who served in leadership positions. We should be speaking of Joseph's wife Eliza, and Joseph's wife Zina, and Joseph's wife Mary, and Joseph's wife Helen...not just of Joseph's wife Emma. They all kept their temple and marriage covenants and stayed faithful. We should not be badmouthing Emma, but making her out as Joseph's "main wife" or "longest serving therefore primary wife" or "only love" is manipulative. Edited January 23, 2014 by JLHPROF
Alan Posted January 23, 2014 Posted January 23, 2014 The issue for me isn't respecting Emma. I have much respect for her. The issue is the absolute ignoring of Joseph Smith's other wives and portraying Emma as his one and only true love. As I have said before, there is a reason for that. Joseph only had one wife and it was Emma.He was sealed to others but not married to them.
JLHPROF Posted January 23, 2014 Posted January 23, 2014 (edited) As I have said before, there is a reason for that. Joseph only had one wife and it was Emma.He was sealed to others but not married to them. Sealing IS married in Mormonism - there was no difference between the eternal sealing that Joseph and Emma had as husband and wife and the eternal sealing that Joseph and Eliza had as husband and wife. That's a silly notion and it doesn't keep with historical fact as well. Joseph absolutely did have more than one wife, he was intimate with them, he loved them, and as much as he could at that time he tried to build relationships with them and they should all be given respect. Edited January 23, 2014 by JLHPROF
Alan Posted January 23, 2014 Posted January 23, 2014 Sealing IS married in Mormonism - there was no difference I was sealed to my parents when I joined the church..... I didn't marry them.In the early church men were sealed to each other, was that marriage? We tend to look at 19th century Mormonism through 21st century Mormon eyes. To us sealing and marriage seem to be the same thing, but in the past they weren't. Even today, a divorced man can be married to one woman but sealed to two. Is he really married to both?
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted January 23, 2014 Posted January 23, 2014 Sealing IS married in Mormonism -No it isn't. I am not married to my kids. Fail!
EllenMaksoud Posted January 23, 2014 Posted January 23, 2014 (edited) I remember reading several of BY's statements about Emma; they were more than just "vilify her somewhat". There was a high degree of anger there. I think Emma responded in kind, but I don't recall her using such strong language. There are several movies about Emma. I have seen the 2008 version, and now that I know, plan to watch some of the others to see what the various perspectives are. From the version I saw, the poor woman put up with a lot. I can certainly see her needing a break after the death of Joseph Smith. The times were unjust, with opponents perverting the laws of the United States to systematically deprive Mormons of their first amendment rights. I think that Americans were by in large were profoundly ignorant about the American Constitution and Bill of Rights, and there were were few officers of the law. As to Brigham Young, I do not like egoistical, aggressive men myself. Now I am wondering if his ways did a lot to arouse other non Mormons to ire? There is a woman up here who I am sure was in the 2008 version as Emma. She says it was not her ... Edited January 23, 2014 by EllenMaksoud
M.CowanBerghofer Posted January 23, 2014 Posted January 23, 2014 Emma has been denigrated for decades. I have had some very negative feelings about her. But I think we have been overly harsh, and need to remember she had many hardships and made many sacrifices. I think it is about time that we do not need to put her on a pedestal but to see her within the proper context. For example, I had seen her denial of Joseph's polygamy in deference to the Reorganized Church, but later discovered that it was actually in the context of protecting her family, especially one of her sons who was having serious mental problems. Joseph loved and cherished her to the very end, and we need to respect her. Just my personal view.I think it an interesting point that Joseph Smith respected his wife and love her to the end. If Joseph Smith, the greatest prophet of our time could do that, then we can. I still believed that Emma failed, she could have been obedient to the Lord, but she wasn't. According to 1 Cor 10:13 she wasn't given too hard a task to handle. She let her selfish desires get the best of her. At the same time we can recognize her strengths and many virtues. We have to look at and understand both sides of the coin.
Alan Posted January 23, 2014 Posted January 23, 2014 Emma had a lot invested in Nauvoo - and I'm not talking about money.Her husband was buried there, she had children buried there too. Her mother-in-law was too old and frail to make the trek west. She had a baby to think about (David was born after Joseph's death). Family stability had eluded her for so long. So why would she go west? She could be a Mormon just as well in Nauvoo as in the Salt Lake Valley.
ALarson Posted January 23, 2014 Posted January 23, 2014 Emma had a lot invested in Nauvoo - and I'm not talking about money.Her husband was buried there, she had children buried there too. Her mother-in-law was too old and frail to make the trek west. She had a baby to think about (David was born after Joseph's death). Family stability had eluded her for so long. So why would she go west? She could be a Mormon just as well in Nauvoo as in the Salt Lake Valley.Alan, I agree. I also believe that the polygamy issue was one of the main reasons she did not follow Brigham Young out to Utah. She never was fully converted to this principle and it was a sore subject for her for the rest of her life. She even denied that Joseph ever lived polygamy (but IIRC, she admitted he did late in her life). An excellent book to read that gives more information on Emma's life in Nauvoo after the death of Joseph is From Mission to Madness: Last Son of the Mormon Prophet. This book is fascinating and it gives a great deal of history regarding Brigham Young's association with Joseph's sons as well. I highly recommend it. Here's a link with more info on it:https://byustudies.byu.edu/showtitle.aspx?title=6600
Stone holm Posted January 23, 2014 Posted January 23, 2014 There are several movies about Emma. I have seen the 2008 version, and now that I know, plan to watch some of the others to see what the various perspectives are. From the version I saw, the poor woman put up with a lot. I can certainly see her needing a break after the death of Joseph Smith. The times were unjust, with opponents perverting the laws of the United States to systematically deprive Mormons of their first amendment rights. I think that Americans were by in large were profoundly ignorant about the American Constitution and Bill of Rights, and there were were few officers of the law. As to Brigham Young, I do not like egoistical, aggressive men myself. Now I am wondering if his ways did a lot to arouse other non Mormons to ire? There is a woman up here who I am sure was in the 2008 version as Emma. She says it was not her ...There are people who are profoundly ignorant of the Constitution yet today, for example many do not realise that in Joseph Smith's time, before the adoption of the 14th Amendment, the Bill of Rights did not apply to the State and local governments, but only the Federal Government. Of course, Joseph Smith did, that is why he tried to have Nauvoo declared a territory instead of part of Illinois. Of course, when the Saints later moved West to Utah Territory the Bill of Rights did apply.
Tacenda Posted January 23, 2014 Posted January 23, 2014 (edited) http://feministmormonhousewivespodcast.org/?s=fanny+algerOn this site are podcasts with snippets of each of the wives of Joseph. It just started so they haven't done all the wives yet. But hopefully they'll be able to find info on each and every one to give honor to them. And the one that deserves the utmost honor is Emma for holding it together for as long as she did. I think 99% of men couldn't see their soul mate with anyone other than themselves and couldn't withstand what Emma did. In fact I'd like just one example in history of a man in the US that has done this. Edited January 23, 2014 by Tacenda
thesometimesaint Posted January 23, 2014 Posted January 23, 2014 No child-to-parent sealings were performed in Joseph Smith's lifetime. When Joseph Smith was sealed to women in the new and everlasting covenant he was marrying them. Incorrect. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealing_%28Mormonism%29http://bycommonconsent.com/2011/12/12/the-cosmological-priesthood/http://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-of-presidents-of-the-church-joseph-fielding-smith/chapter-17-sealing-power-and-temple-blessings?lang=eng There is still considerable debate if those Sealings involved marriage rights in this life. Currently there is no definitive proof that they were.
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