Emma

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

No child-to-parent sealings were performed in Joseph Smith's lifetime. When Joseph Smith was sealed to women in the new and everlasting covenant he was marrying them.

I am sorry I reposnding to his statement that "Sealing is married in Mormonism". That is false and you know it. IF he would have stated that JS sealings were treated as marriages that is a different story. I never once spoke of JS but in a general sense.

 

I still disagree with your assertion that JS was marrying these women in the tradtional sense anyway. I guess if you were not arguing that he was marrying them in a traditonal sense then we are on the same page. I am not sure there is evidence that JS was sealed to people (I recall he was sealed to men and other men's wive's too) and that it was a marriage.

Edited January 23, 2014 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[Calm]

I think 99% of men couldn't see their soul mate with anyone other themselves and couldn't withstand what Emma did.  In fact I'd like just one example in history of a man in the US that has done this.

How about all the men who have married women sealed to another man already?

Plus there is the account of the woman who divorced her husband, remarried, had children by her second husband and the divorced him and remarried her first because before they converted to the Church, the husband had undergone some sort of sterilisation procedure but they believed they were commanded to have more children so BY gave them this option if they wanted it. It has been referenced a few times on the board. Hopefully you remember so I don't have to go find it.

[ALarson]

There is still considerable debate if those Sealings involved marriage rights in this life. Currently there is no definitive proof that they were.

I'm curious how you regard the affidavits that were sworn and signed by some of the wives of Joseph Smith.  Do you consider them to be forgeries or that they were coerced?  I'd need to revisit them before I can comment more on them, but I'd love your take.  Thanks! 

[Calm]

And she did marry Bidamon on Joseph's birthday. I've wondered if that was intentional and if so, why?

More than likely it was simply the time the circuit riding judge had available. Unlike most now, they were not located in a place where they could just pop down to the court office to officially register and get married.

I just read this so if you are curious google "why did Emma marry Lewis bidamon on" (can't remember the exact phrasing of the rest of it, include "birthday" if you want to narrow the hits) you can too.

[Nevo]

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Edited October 1, 2014 by Nevo

[Nevo]

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Edited October 1, 2014 by Nevo

[thesometimesaint]

I'm curious how you regard the affidavits that were sworn and signed by some of the wives of Joseph Smith.  Do you consider them to be forgeries or that they were coerced?  I'd need to revisit them before I can comment more on them, but I'd love your take.  Thanks! 

 

There is ample evidence that some of the women Sealed to JS went on with their lives as wives of other men.

There is at present no evidence for any birth other than that to Emma.

There were more than a few that were Sealed to JS after his death.

 

So just maybe Sealings are not the same thing as marriage.

 

Ps; JS was also Sealed to other men. Are you saying that JS was married(had sexual relations) with those men?

Edited January 24, 2014 by thesometimesaint

[JLHPROF]

I was sealed to my parents when I joined the church..... I didn't marry them.

In the early church men were sealed to each other, was that marriage?

 

We tend to look at 19th century Mormonism through 21st century Mormon eyes. To us sealing and marriage seem to be the same thing, but in the past they weren't.

 

Even today, a divorced man can be married to one woman but sealed to two. Is he really married to both?

 

No it isn't. I am not married to my kids. Fail!

 

Are you guys kidding me?  The sealing ceremony for kids is a completely different and unrelated to the marriage sealing ceremony.  When you are sealed to your kids you are made parents.  When you are sealed to your wife you are married for eternity.

 

A man that is "sealed" to two women is married to two women.  And Joseph Smith was sealed to and had 30+ wives.

This is Mormonism 101.  If the sealing ceremony in the temple is not a "marriage" then what constitutes a Mormon marriage?

 

I really hope you guys are pulling my leg.

[thesometimesaint]

 

Please point out where any of those links say that child-to-parent sealings took place in Joseph Smith's lifetime.

 

By the way, here's my source:

 

"Ehat, “Joseph Smith’s Introduction of Temple Ordinances,” 279–80 note 414, was the first to observe that no child-to-parent sealings/adoptions were performed during Smith’s lifetime" (Jonathan A. Stapley, "Adoptive Sealing Ritual in Mormonism," Journal of Mormon History 37, no. 3 [2011]: 59n13).

 

 

If the Sealing isn't to turn the hearts of the fathers to their children and the hearts of the children to their fathers there is little point to the Sealing.

Edited January 24, 2014 by thesometimesaint

[Calm]

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A man that is "sealed" to two women is married to two women.

Do you agree that marriage allows for sexual relations?

[Calm]

Please point out where any of those links say that child-to-parent sealings took place in Joseph Smith's lifetime.

By the way, here's my source:

"Ehat, “Joseph Smith’s Introduction of Temple Ordinances,” 279–80 note 414, was the first to observe that no child-to-parent sealings/adoptions were performed during Smith’s lifetime" (Jonathan A. Stapley, "Adoptive Sealing Ritual in Mormonism," Journal of Mormon History 37, no. 3 [2011]: 59n13).

There were no "law of adoption" sealings during his lifetime with adult men being sealed to him as part of his family (not talking about children who were adopted such as the Murdock twins, but adult men that might even be older than their 'adoptive' parents just to be clear)? When did the practice start?

PS: do you believe the offering to be sealed to Jane Manning James was as a daughter or do you think she misunderstood and it was actually an offer from Emma to be a plural wife as I've heard some speculate.

Edited January 24, 2014 by calmoriah

[Calm]

If the Sealing isn't to turn the hearts of the fathers to their children and the hearts of the children to their fathers there is little point to the Sealing.

You don't think sealing of husband and wife eternally would be enough reason for the practice?

[MichelleD]

There is ample evidence that some of the women Sealed to JS went on with their lives as wives of other men.

There is at present no evidence for any birth other than that to Emma.

There were more than a few that were Sealed to JS after his death.

 

So just maybe Sealings are not the same thing as marriage.

 

Ps; JS was also Sealed to other men. Are you saying that JS was married(had sexual relations) with those men?

Have you read the affidavits? It doesn't sound like it from your answer above. I think you'd find them interesting.

[Calm]

He probably means no DNA evidence rather than no evidence as all. He can correct me if I am wrong.

[JLHPROF]

Do you agree that marriage allows for sexual relations?

 

Absolutely.  Even if the prophet Joseph didn't father children with his plural wives (and we can speculate why he didn't but we don't really know) several of his plural wives admitted to having relations.  We need to remember the marriage ceremony (which I would post or link but am not allowed) and the commandment we are given during it.  It would have been no different for Joseph when he entered into that covenant with each of those women.  After all:

 

Jacob 2

30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up ^aseed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.

[Calm]

Absolutely. Even if the prophet Joseph didn't father children with his plural wives (and we can speculate why he didn't but we don't really know) several of his plural wives admitted to having relations. We need to remember the marriage ceremony (which I would post or link but am not allowed) and the commandment we are given during it.

Then why are couples who are sealed but legally divorced disciplined if they have sex (since you have stated a man sealed to two women is married to two women)? Edited January 24, 2014 by calmoriah

[JLHPROF]

Then why are couples who are sealed but legally divorced disciplined if they have sex (since you have stated a man sealed to two women is married to two women)?

 

Because the focus on civil law has moved far beyond any focus on gospel law.  I quoted references a couple of months back that Church leaders in the 19th century only respected priesthood marriages (sealing) as the only kind of valid marriage.  They viewed civil marriages as non-binding.

Now, we focus entirely on legality and as evidenced by this thread downplay the authority behind sealing marriages.

[Nevo]

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Edited October 1, 2014 by Nevo

[Calm]

Very interesting. Thank you.

[Stone holm]

Then why are couples who are sealed but legally divorced disciplined if they have sex (since you have stated a man sealed to two women is married to two women)?

Good question. But would we really want to take the Catholic position?

[Calm]

Good question. But would we really want to take the Catholic position?

I personally think if two people choose to get divorced or acted in a way where they are responsible for their spouse wanting a divorce, they have broken the covenant, their sealing is not confirmed by the Spirit and they are not married, even if one or possibly both (though I am wondering how both could be, i accept it as a possibility) are still in covenant with the Lord.

[thesometimesaint]

You don't think sealing of husband and wife eternally would be enough reason for the practice?

 

Not by itself. From the Heavenly perspective I believe it is about family, not just the couple.

[Alan]

I'm curious how you regard the affidavits that were sworn and signed by some of the wives of Joseph Smith.  Do you consider them to be forgeries or that they were coerced?  I'd need to revisit them before I can comment more on them, but I'd love your take.  Thanks! 

 

The problem is that these were a long time after the fact, and in Utah. Given the prevailing interpretaion by that time, and looking at the Nauvoo period through Utah eyes, they could have been interpreted as marriages.

However, some of these same women also stated that some of their children were Joseph's, something which modern DNA research has proved false. So how reliable are these affidavits?

[Alan]

 

A man that is "sealed" to two women is married to two women. 

 

 

Not so my friend.

If a man who is married and sealed to a woman divorces her and marries another, he can have the new wife sealed to him without dissolving the first sealing. He doesn't have two wives, he has one. But he is sealed to two women, one of which is his wife.

He is not married to them both at the same time, but he is sealed to them both.

Even the church does not recognise him as being married to the first wife in these circumstances.

 

Furthermore, it is possible for a man to be married to someone he isn't sealed to, while at the same time being sealed to other women, to whom he is no longer married.

 

To argue that a sealing equates to marriage is simplistic and unreasonable.

 

There is absolutely no reason why Joseph could not have been married to Emma and sealed to her, while also being sealed to several others. He would still have had only one wife. This is not rocket science.

Edited January 24, 2014 by Alan

[Alan]

Not by itself. From the Heavenly perspective I believe it is about family, not just the couple.

 

You are right in my view.