Thee, Thy, Thou - Archaic English - Essential To L D S Prayer

[Rob Osborn]

The whole "prayer language" mystery policy in the church needs to quietly die away. I just don't see this policy working in the church filled with an ever growing diversity of peoples from all types of influence and culture. Its too difficult for the members to learn the proper form of speech for using this archaic set of words. For new members and wards made up of young folks and lots of converts this prayer language thing gets all screwed up and you get folks unsure the proper way to pray or even afraid to pray. And it still comes down to why? why do we need a different language for addressing God but have a different standard for God's creations? Are we making the Father into something He is not? It really doesn't make a whole lot of sense. We should address all people, including God the same just as is shown in scripture.

[mfbukowski]

 We should address all people, including God the same just as is shown in scripture.

Huh?

 

That's exactly what we are doing.  The scriptures used in English is the King James, and that is how people are addressed in those scriptures.  What's your point?

 

If the Spanish scriptures do it differently, fine.  My native language and the language I pray in is English so I prefer to use scriptural language.  So what's the big deal?

[Five Solas]

The Apostles know this.

http://www.lds.org/ensign/1993/05/the-language-of-prayer

Note that Elder Oaks acknowledges that is familiar language and acknowledges that some of the meaning of respect and reverence has been acquired since.

As an alternative to Elder Dallin H. Oaks military-speak analogy for our prayers (based on his experience in the Utah National Guard), consider this recent exchange Pope Francis had with an Italian teenager who had written him a letter--

 

Pope Francis told the student to address him as 'tu' rather than use the much more formal 'lei' during the conversation.  "He said to me, do you think the Apostles would have used the polite form with Christ? "Would they have called him your excellency? They were friends, just as you and I are now, and with friends I'm accustomed to using 'tu'."

You can read the full story here: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/10259581/Hello-its-Pope-Francis-Italian-teenager-gets-surprise-phone-call.html

 

Now I'm not likely to agree with everything Pope Francis has to say, but here I think he's spot on (along with William Tyndale).  And Pastor Rick Warren wrote a short devotional on the topic of believers friendship with God and its basis in Scripture.  No military analogies this time, but in my opinion it's a good deal more useful for understanding the subject: http://www.purposedriven.com/blogs/dailyhope/index.html?contentid=10435

:0)

 

--Erik

[Rob Osborn]

Huh?

 

That's exactly what we are doing.  The scriptures used in English is the King James, and that is how people are addressed in those scriptures.  What's your point?

 

If the Spanish scriptures do it differently, fine.  My native language and the language I pray in is English so I prefer to use scriptural language.  So what's the big deal?

My point is that the scriptures use informal language to address God. There never wad a separate prayer language until more recent times. Now we are making rules?

[SeekingUnderstanding]

Honestly, who are you to tell others what they think is necessary to express respect to God?  That's a pretty audacious statement.

 

Maybe I think it is not necessary for you to pray or go to the temple- would you listen?

I'm confused so perhaps I was not precise in my language.

 

I said: " If people want to adopt this usage as a way of showing respect, more power to them."  To clarify, I have zero issues with people using thee and thou in prayers. I have zero issues with them saying that it is necessary for them to show respect to God. I 100% support them and believe them to be sincere. I have major problems with people saying that using "thee" and "thou" is the most correct way to pray in English and that using "you" is somehow inherently less respectful. The respect that we show comes not from the words we use, but the intent of our heart. 

[mfbukowski]

My point is that the scriptures use informal language to address God. There never wad a separate prayer language until more recent times. Now we are making rules?

We INTERPRET the language as formal.  What it meant 500 years ago is irrelevant.

 

That's like using a meaning in Latin to challenge a translation in modern Italian- "well 2000 years ago it meant this!"  Can you see how silly that is?

 

We also no longer understand the language of physics the way Issac Newton did.  In fact it's somewhat humorous- speaking of which- do you know what "humor" meant a few hundred years ago?

 

 

Humorism, or humoralism, is a now discredited theory of the makeup and workings of the human body, adopted by Ancient Greek and Roman physicians and philosophers, positing that an excess or deficiency of any of four distinct bodily fluids known as humors (UK: humours) in a person directly influences their temperament and health. From Hippocrates onward, the humoral theory was adopted by Greek, Roman and Persian physicians, and became the most commonly held view of the human body among European physicians until the advent of modern medical research in the nineteenth century.

The four humors of Hippocratic medicine are black bile (Gk. melan chole), yellow bile (Gk. chole), phlegm (Gk. phlegma), and blood (Gk. haima), and each corresponds to one of the traditional four temperaments. A humor is also referred to as a cambium (pl. cambia or cambiums).^[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humorism

 

Will Rogers was a humorist, but I don't think he knew much about bodily fluids.

[mfbukowski]

I'm confused so perhaps I was not precise in my language.

 

Well I was probably overly picky, because I am a bit weird that way.  Language is all we have for communication and I have spent years slicing and dicing what people say- because for me, all that really exists is our shared experiences and how we express them.

 

No problem- I drive my wife and kids nuts as well.  But I really did not know what you meant.  .)

[Rob Osborn]

We INTERPRET the language as formal.  What it meant 500 years ago is irrelevant.

 

That's like using a meaning in Latin to challenge a translation in modern Italian- "well 2000 years ago it meant this!"  Can you see how silly that is?

 

We also no longer understand the language of physics the way Issac Newton did.  In fact it's somewhat humorous- speaking of which- do you know what "humor" meant a few hundred years ago?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humorism

 

Will Rogers was a humorist, but I don't think he knew much about bodily fluids.

The point is we have invented a formal language to address God when in fact it was never meant to be.

[The Nehor]

As an alternative to Elder Dallin H. Oaks military-speak analogy for our prayers (based on his experience in the Utah National Guard), consider this recent exchange Pope Francis had with an Italian teenager who had written him a letter--

 

Pope Francis told the student to address him as 'tu' rather than use the much more formal 'lei' during the conversation.  "He said to me, do you think the Apostles would have used the polite form with Christ? "Would they have called him your excellency? They were friends, just as you and I are now, and with friends I'm accustomed to using 'tu'."

You can read the full story here: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/10259581/Hello-its-Pope-Francis-Italian-teenager-gets-surprise-phone-call.html

 

Now I'm not likely to agree with everything Pope Francis has to say, but here I think he's spot on (along with William Tyndale).  And Pastor Rick Warren wrote a short devotional on the topic of believers friendship with God and its basis in Scripture.  No military analogies this time, but in my opinion it's a good deal more useful for understanding the subject: http://www.purposedriven.com/blogs/dailyhope/index.html?contentid=10435

:0)

 

--Erik

 

Again, "thee" and "thou" ARE the equivalent of the Spanish "tu" form

 

 

The point is we have invented a formal language to address God when in fact it was never meant to be.

 

So you are saying God screwed up when he gave the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants using this language? And somehow it was still never meant to be?

[thesometimesaint]

Again, "thee" and "thou" ARE the equivalent of the Spanish "tu" form

 

So you are saying God screwed up when he gave the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants using this language? And somehow it was still never meant to be?

 

Probably not God. But in the word choices of Joseph Smith. He was deliberately trying to them sound like King James English.

[daz2]

I don't always agree with Rob, but I definitely do on this one.  I really think our emphasis on thee and thou is an historical accident (that is, I think the aversion to "you" was a reaction to the 1960s, and hippies used "you" when speaking of God and we thought that was disrespecful) like our aversion to the cross.  I do think the emphasis will die away, and that it is generational.  In any event, I hear lots of prayers in church, including by recently returned missionaries and even older members where "you" is used instead of the archaic forms, and where they archaic forms are used, I hear them freely mixed with "yous".  Like: "We thank thee for this day and ask you to bless us with health."  I also suspect that one of our hymns which uses "you" instead of "thee/thou" for God will not be removed any time soon from the Hymnal "I'll Go Where You Want Me To God".  (I don't know what church leaders were thinking when they added it to the hymnal--singing so disrespectfully to God almost every time someone leaves on a mission!)

[Rob Osborn]

 

 

So you are saying God screwed up when he gave the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants using this language? And somehow it was still never meant to be?

Like has already been mentioned Joseph chose to translate scripture in King James stylized english. I highly doubt the ancient inhabitants of the Americas spoke much like their counterparts acrross the ocean in the holy land. God never screwed anything up. He just speaks in the language that man understands and uses. I still think it is paramount in realizing that the original use of thee, thine, thou and thy was used in the same exact manner that we now use words like you and your. This was not words used in addressing just God. It was language that addressed everyone including the enemy- Satan himself!

[The Nehor]

 I still think it is paramount in realizing that the original use of thee, thine, thou and thy was used in the same exact manner that we now use words like you and your. This was not words used in addressing just God. It was language that addressed everyone including the enemy- Satan himself!

 

I have acknowledged this multiple times. Why do people keep saying it?

[Rob Osborn]

I have acknowledged this multiple times. Why do people keep saying it?

Because we shouldnt just start inventing "formal prayer language" and the paradoxially state its because that is how it is worded in our scriptures all the while acknowledging that it wasnt formal language when put in scripture but now somehow it is just because of tradition.

[mfbukowski]

The point is we have invented a formal language to address God when in fact it was never meant to be.

By whom was it "never meant to be" and more importantly, how do you know??

[mfbukowski]

Because we shouldnt just start inventing "formal prayer language" and the paradoxially state its because that is how it is worded in our scriptures all the while acknowledging that it wasnt formal language when put in scripture but now somehow it is just because of tradition.

I really don't understand what the rest of this post means, but who says we should or shouldn't invent a formal prayer language?

 

Where does it say "Thou shalt not invent a formal prayer language"? 

[The Nehor]

Because we shouldnt just start inventing "formal prayer language" and the paradoxially state its because that is how it is worded in our scriptures all the while acknowledging that it wasnt formal language when put in scripture but now somehow it is just because of tradition.

 

We didn't invent it; we inherited it from the scriptures. Of course it was not formal when put into scripture but now it is (while at the same time being intimate). We are not trying to go back to some Ur-language when we use it. We use it because it is traditional and the Apostles have told us we should continue to do so.

 

Don't get me wrong. I am all for deconstructing why we do things but knowing the history of something associated with the divine does not give us the right to overthrow it. I can deconstruct the metaphor of baptism but that does not mean I can skip the ordinance. Obviously this is less important then baptism but that does not make it unimportant.

[Rob Osborn]

I really don't understand what the rest of this post means, but who says we should or shouldn't invent a formal prayer language?

 

Where does it say "Thou shalt not invent a formal prayer language"?

More important, where does it say in scripture that we should use special language when addressing our Heavenly Father? I have yet to find where it says such. Perhaps we should all just capitulate and they should have prayer police at chuch.

[Rob Osborn]

We didn't invent it; we inherited it from the scriptures. Of course it was not formal when put into scripture but now it is (while at the same time being intimate). We are not trying to go back to some Ur-language when we use it. We use it because it is traditional and the Apostles have told us we should continue to do so.

 

Don't get me wrong. I am all for deconstructing why we do things but knowing the history of something associated with the divine does not give us the right to overthrow it. I can deconstruct the metaphor of baptism but that does not mean I can skip the ordinance. Obviously this is less important then baptism but that does not make it unimportant.

Should we do something just because its tradition and enforce that belief into policy or should we back off and let people, english speaking, from a now myriad of background choose the words of their heart? I personally find "you and "your" highly intimate. I tell all those I love with that word. Should God be any diffetent?

[Rob Osborn]

I don't always agree with Rob, but I definitely do on this one.  I really think our emphasis on thee and thou is an historical accident (that is, I think the aversion to "you" was a reaction to the 1960s, and hippies used "you" when speaking of God and we thought that was disrespecful) like our aversion to the cross.  I do think the emphasis will die away, and that it is generational.  In any event, I hear lots of prayers in church, including by recently returned missionaries and even older members where "you" is used instead of the archaic forms, and where they archaic forms are used, I hear them freely mixed with "yous".  Like: "We thank thee for this day and ask you to bless us with health."  I also suspect that one of our hymns which uses "you" instead of "thee/thou" for God will not be removed any time soon from the Hymnal "I'll Go Where You Want Me To God".  (I don't know what church leaders were thinking when they added it to the hymnal--singing so disrespectfully to God almost every time someone leaves on a mission!)

I have begun looking into the songbook to see other cases of the "you/your". So far there are three I know of now. Here is the fourth verse of "Oh My Father"

4. When I leave this frail existence, When I lay this mortal by, Father, Mother, may I meet you In your royal courts on high? Then, at length, when I've completed All you sent me forth to do, With your mutual approbation Let me come and dwell with you.

[volgadon]

I have begun looking into the songbook to see other cases of the "you/your". So far there are three I know of now. Here is the fourth verse of "Oh My Father"

4. When I leave this frail existence, When I lay this mortal by, Father, Mother, may I meet you In your royal courts on high? Then, at length, when I've completed All you sent me forth to do, With your mutual approbation Let me come and dwell with you.

 

 

Invalid example. Thou cannot be applied to plural subjects.

[Five Solas]

Again, "thee" and "thou" ARE the equivalent of the Spanish "tu" form

Yes indeed, but Pope Francis isn't standing the meaning on its head--making the informal into formal as Dallin H. Oaks et al. have done.  A more careful read my post (#203) might serve you well, Nehor.

 

--Erik

[Rob Osborn]

Invalid example. Thou cannot be applied to plural subjects.

No, its completely valid. God is addressed here in this verse as You and your. Remember that this isn't supposed to be about therule of thee, thou, thine but rather the language of respect. So which is it then? Because "thou" isn't proper grammer then "you" works?

[The Nehor]

Yes indeed, but Pope Francis isn't standing the meaning on its head--making the informal into formal as Dallin H. Oaks et al. have done.  A more careful read my post (#203) might serve you well, Nehor.

 

--Erik

 

It wasn't making the informal into the formal. It is a combination of the two: one from original intent and one acquired.

 

While we are being snide a more careful reading of my numerous posts of the subject would have made this obvious to even a subliterate moron.

[Five Solas]

It wasn't making the informal into the formal. It is a combination of the two: one from original intent and one acquired.

some will see how your second sentence contradicts your first, when the "one acquired" is formal, reverent usage.  Pope Francis (post # 203) really has the right idea here, echoing the Reformer Tyndale, ~ 500 years earlier.  (btw, how cool is that?)

 

 

...obvious to even a subliterate moron

you message more than a hint of desperation to your readers with this sort of thing

 

--Erik